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I don't see people respecting the opinion of gay couples who want to marry, do you? Sure, there are some, and in a large country like the US, "some" adds up to quite a few people. But still, are we respecting that opinion?


Gay marriage is a far murkier subject than simply respecting opinions. You can't make a legal statement one way or the other without stepping on someone's opinion. But the important thing is that respecting another's option doesn't mean agreeing with it, it means seperating people from their views and recognizing that however much you might dissagree with somone else, you never have a right to be abusive or denegrade them. Saying "I don't think gays should marry" is not intolerant or disrespectful. You can disagree with the statement, challenge it's validity, or even believe it to be backward and of 0 value, but in the end it's a point of view and the person stating it has every right to do so, despite it's validity. Or put another way, if everyone agreed on the issue of gay marriage, what difference would anyone be tolerating or respecting?


I agree with you when you say everyone has a right to disagree with opinions and views. But what you a conveniently ignoring here is that people are not saying "gays should not marry". People are saying "gays will NOT marry. And if they do, we'll nullify it. Oh, and we want to make a law saying they can't be married in the future." And that is the sort of respect (or lack thereof) that I'm talking about. You may think it's a show of respect to say "I respect the fact that gays want to get married" as you cast your vote to ban them from doing so. I think it is, at best, lip service and at worst hipocrisy. Of course, I say that as a hypothetical; I have no idea how you personally would vote on such a measure, nor whether you would say that while doing so.

I didn't intend to make this a gay marriage thread, but it happens to be a very good example in current events of what I'm talking about.

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The fact is that gay people get married every day and their right to do so is respected. Pastors stand up in church every week (somewhere I'm sure) and say that it's wrong, and their right to do so is respected.


So exactly where is the US are gay couples getting married every day? And where is their right to do so respected?

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Whether the law should recognize the former officially is about determining what marriage is in the legal sense and why it's important to the government. I repeat: this is far more complicated than simply respecting opinions.


As much as I'm sure many Christians think they invented marriage, thay did not. So they need to back off and realize that marriage is between the individuals involved, not the individuals involved and the government. Maybe the church could go spend a few dollars on an anthropology book and "get their learn on"?

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I'm not arguing for or against whether Americans respect others in general, but I do think your examples fall short of proving your point. Respect is not about agreeing with or even believing that another's viewpoint has merit, it is about the way you treat others when you disagree.


When did I ever say respect meant "agreeing with or even believing that another's viewpoint has merit"? You'll have trouble finding it, because I never said that. I think, in fact, that I made the point that what bothered me was the rude nature of the comments made.

Maybe you and Mark should grab a cup of coffee, put on some nice music and take a few minutes to actually read the posts you're commenting on. Then, before replying, take another few minutes to digest what is being said. I have never argued, or even implied, that I believe people should not have written to the Guardian saying they disagreed with what the Guardian was doing. What I disagree with, and the sort of behavior that makes me feel ashamed, is that people seem to be unable (for the most part) to do so without ending with a comment like "And by the way, brush your fscking teeth you limey bastards".

I don't mean to come off all snotty, but it's getting pretty old having to re-explain what I've already said in fairly plain language.
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Dave