I was sitting around thinking of some solutions for the getting-usable-data for GPS purposes problem today. I seem to recall some discussion about how commercially available data (i.e. NavTech) would be way to expensive. Well, I went to their website. I said I had a Clarion navigational unit, and tried to order a "map update". Well, it came to $105 for CA and NV maps (the whole US is $250). Apparently, this data is in SDAL format - if you register as a developer, you can download the spec for free (which I also did). So, the only question I have is if these "map updates" contain the whole map data, or just a subset thereof. I would assume that they contain everything since (a) they are gigantic, (b) since areas are sold seperately, it looks like the system was designed to let users upgrade their coverage.

So, does anyone have any reason(s) that I may have missed that would make this seem like not a good solution?

Hi

There are serval people that are interessted in the SDAL definition. Could you send this definition to me (or to us in this forum).

Thanks

Rolf

I would say the best idea would be if you signed up as a developer at the NavTech site yourself and downloaded it. I'm pretty certain that the licence agreement will say that rcldesign isn't allowed to disclose the format infromation to third parties. Otherwise they wouldn't have made him sign up to be able to download it would they!

This does look interested to say the least... I havn't gotten to far in reading the actual spec though. The part that concerns me is that the virtual-shrinkwrap agreegment says that all products using the "open" specification must be certified by The Powers That Be. What I havn't been able to tell is if the specification gives enough information to actually implement navigation, or if it requires some secret code to unlock that they only give you once you're certified.

Anyone who's done more work on this want to comment? It looks like the spec has been around for a while...

Matthew

My interpritation of the spec is that technically, you can't develop anything that uses it or your work is infringing on their copyright. But, technically, I guess if we keep it REALLY low key, they might either miss us or ignore us. It might be a similar thing like the mp3 spec - Fraunhaufer (sp?) said that you could read the spec, but couldn't implement it without paying a fee... hence decoders are free, but encoders pay royalties (yet many encoders actually end up being free). So I'm sure that if we ignore this completely, and make all the stuff available for free on the internet, maybe we could scoot by the law without getting noticed.

Yeah, that sounds about right from what I've read too. What I can't find is any open source programs that have implemented the spec at all as a proof of concept or anything. It seems like someone would have started doing this, but I guess not. I don't have a map CD and don't really want to pay $100 for it unless I know I'm going to get some use out of it.

Matthew

As I sidenote, BGMicro have those GPS modules in again. You will need to do some soldering though so it's not strictly plug-n-play

- Trevor

Then maybe we've got them in some false advertising crux ... From their website:
"
The differences between SDAL Format and other proposed solutions promising map media compatibility is that SDAL Format is already in use today by a growing number of systems and applications and is open and available to anyone to use – no strings attached.
"

[Edited Here]

Also:

Q: Is SDAL Format an open standard?

A: Yes. SDAL Physical Storage Format Specification is now publicly available for review. Interested parties can register online to request a copy. If manufacturers wish to implement the SDAL Format PSF Specification, they will be able to do so royalty-free.

Greg

You understand that the format is different from the data right? Just because you implemented the format doesn't give you access to the map data. It does however let you create your own map data.

Calvin

So this SDAL format is for overlays and things like that?

Makes sense I suppose, you don't want people extracting the actual map data itself. Bit annoying that nobody is feeling generous and allows their map data to be used freely...

- Trevor

There is quite a number of formats out there. I was actively looking into all of this stuff before getting laid off. Autodesk for example, supports a mapping format. Many of the mapping formats are "open" in the sense that development is encouraged but in almost all cases the data itself is never to be redistributed. You *can* get map data for free from the government. For example, California State DOT will release data in various formats, and I believe you can get Tiger data for free as well. The problem is accuracy. The DOT map data looks like ass for everything except for the major highways for example. Companies like NavTech base their original maps on government data, supplement that with recent satellite data, then they employ hundreds to thousands of drivers carrying GPS units manually probing the nation's roads constantly in order to verify the data. This cost overhead is what you're paying for. If they give away the data for free they will go out of business and the quality goes way down.

Calvin

I've always wondered how they get the map data accurate enough for driving.

Actual paper maps here in the UK have tiny imperfections put into them deliberately so that you can prove ownership of the data if somebody ever copied it and made their own maps. I guess the GPS map CDs would have a similar sort of thing so they'd know if you ever stole their data and released it.

- Trevor

There are really only two companies with accurate data. Navtech and Teleatlas. They both employ a lot of people driving out on the roads. The Navtech system sends out drivers in teams of 2. One drives and the other operates the laptop, designating roads that are closed, new roads, designating one way streets, private streets, etc. Through this technique I think they're able to cover nearly all the drivable streets in the major metropolitan areas. The non metros are left to government data and satellite maps and such.

The way the data is listed, is interesting, they have each interesting segment of road given in a vector type format that correlates closely with geographical coordinates. I'm sure that if you "stole" the data they can easily identify the origin of the map data by comparing segment/vectors. Since the segment vectors roughly correlate to actual physical drivers moving around the roads, no segments from two different companies will ever precisely match, is my guess. Also, NavTech and TeleAtlas does not cover the exact same geographical areas. They're expanding into other countries at different paces, so some data will be "blank" from one company and not "blank" in the other.

Calvin

In reply to:

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You understand that the format is different from the data right? Just because you implemented the format doesn't give you access to the map data. It does however let you create your own map data.

---

I'm still trying to figure this out... If the format is open, I should be able to buy the CD, write a program to implement the spec, and then read the data off of the CD? I have no objection to buying a Navtech CD in SDAL format, as long as I can get the data off of it and theoretically into my empeg. Selling/Copying that data is still illegal... So, the question is, what do they mean by "open", and how open is it?

Matthew

Well I don't think anyone here really minds paying for the map data. What we don't want to pay is an exhorbitant amount for a licence that gives us access to the data format so that we can develop our own Nav software.

I believe it means you can write code to read the Navtech CD, provided you paid for it. You can create your own maps in the format, then read it back.

Remember, the Navtech data is per application, meaning, if it is licensed for Mapquest, or Yahoo Maps, or the Alpine navigation software, it can *not* be used for another piece of software. You have to license it from navtech per application. So if you wrote your code to understand the map format, you *still* need to fork over $75,000 for the data.

Calvin

I think I'm still lost here. So we have free access to the format, and are encouraged to develop software for it. Each person would buy their own respective CD's from NavTech. We'd presumably have some software to help each individual move this data from CD to their own personal Empeg.

At what point is licensing required? At the point that you distribute your application that supports their CDs? Are we sure that there is a licensing fee required in our case?

Greg

There might be another possible alternative, if you want to drive a pre-planned route and don't really care about exact street level info or on-the-fly rerouting.

There is this website mapsonus.switchboard.com, if you go to the general options and select 'show latitude and longtitude', it adds an additional link at the bottom of a planned route page "Raw Route Description". That basically contains a well documented dump of the route information, both the turns with descriptions and the actual shape of the path that is drawn on the map.

All coordinates are in NAD27 and I've successfully converted them to tracks and routes for my garmin etrex venture gps, and they seemed to match the actual roads reasonably well.

We can all say that we have Clarion AutoPCs in our cars, order our respective CDs, and copy the data to our empegs, provided someone developes an SDAL supported GPS program. If they want to get me for some licensing fee at that point, they can go ahead and try. Worst case scenario, I'll buy a Clarion AutoPC, get the S/N, etc, then return the thing. I owned one, and therefore had a legitimate reason to buy the data. I bought the data, "didn't like" the stereo, and returned it. There is NOTHING they can do about it. I will gladly GIVE someone some data to borrow while they implement this thing for the Empeg. Why are we all so worried about licensing and stuff? Who cares? I sure as hell don't.

Same here buddy. If some big fat rich a-hole at TeleStar or whatever wants to go after my tuition money, he can sure as hell try. In the mean time, I've got directions on my car stereo!!

Honestly I don't see them coming after such an insignificant group. Now if Alpine or Sony pulled this, you can bet they'd hear about it. I don't think they could pull a reverse class-action suit against us.

Greg

Hi

In my mind I think the companies which sale navigation CD's like Blaupunkt (Germany), Clarion, VDO etc. should be interessted in sale this navigation CD's to everybody!!! I spoke with Siemens (owner of VDO) about this theme. If they would give the specification of the navigation CD format they would open a new market. Think about the following situation:

Normaly you buy a navigation system one time (with a new car or later). But you will buy many times a navigation CD with the newest road map informations. So this means: You invest one time $500 - $1500 for the navigation system and 3 - 5 time $100 for updating the navigation system. If the manufactors of navigation CD's would open the data format of the navi-CD's for public they would sales 3 - 5 time $100 for navi-CD's but many 1000 times because software on the market will be available for using this CD's.

Rolf

Where do you think the data on those navigation CDs come from? It comes from either Navtech or Teleatlas. That is why navigation equipment is so expensive, because of the licensing fees. Do you really think it costs $1000-$3000 just for the hardware? :-)

Calvin

Ok... I don't care anymore... someone grow some balls and implement to SDAL format... we'll all be happy then.

Ok... I don't care anymore... someone grow some balls and implement to SDAL format... we'll all be happy then.

Let us know when you're done.

No, I don't think that the hardware is so expensive. But I believe that if the manufactors of navigation CD would open their format of the CD they would sell much more of the navigation informations.

Another aspect of this situation is: You can buy the navigation data (from Navtech or Teleatlas) to a fixed price (If I remember correctly it's about $10'000 to $20'000 dollars) and you will get the complete data with all navigation related informations (map, directions, POI etc.). All manufactors of navi CD's calculate this price with the numbers of CD's they plan to sell and that's the price of the navi CD's.

Think verse vica: Why can a software manufactor offer a navigation software for $70 including navigation informations for Palm, PSION? The reason is very easy: They pay $10'000 - $20'000 dollars for the informations and can sell this together with the software many thousand times!!!

Rolf

Now that's funny!

g

Unfortunately, I don't have the know-how for the mapping stuff... *maybe* if I knew what I was doing, and knew how to interface the data to something like Kim's GPS software, then I'd do it. So how's this... someone gets me Kim's software, and tells me how the data needs to be presented to it, and I'll write up some sort of interface from the data to Kim's software. Otherwise, I'm waiting for someone with a little more insight to do it.

How has Kim's GPS Software. I'll be interessted too.

Rolf

Won't argue with you there. I think the whole navigation monopoly sucks.

Calvin

Does anyone know if Kim is still working on his gps software? I'm wondering why the rapturousness about this great project abated so quickly.

Becuase kim doesnt want to release the source or the binary of his software. Its his right not to.

If he never had in mind to release the software or sell it, why did he post here in the forum? To make everybody jealous? ;-)

Perhaps he wanted to sell it to SonicBlue, or some other vendor rather than to end users?

It's a great pity! ;-(

I thought he was going to sell it, but I guess it didn't work out. Do a search on GPS and his reasoning is in there somewhere. The thread is several months old at least. Its a shame because he had a lot of things figured out already and all that work will have to be duplicated now :-(

Edit: Here is the thread describing his software. http://empeg.comms.net/php/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=prodject&Number=56980&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Sean

In reply to:

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Edit: Here is the thread describing his software

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I was the one that originally posted that thread. Unfortunately I haven't heard from Kim in quite a while. I do believe that he intended to sell his software to end users. Unfortunately AFAIK he never found a satisfactory map data source. It is really a shame because his software was very cool, he had obviously put a ton of work into it and it is a shame that it never got released. Of course that is one of the big advantages to open source, once code is out there it can take on a life of its own even if the original developer gives up on it. If I still have his email address I will send him a note to see if he is still working on his project.

-Mike

Yeah, remind him of those good old days... And tell him about this thread here. I really think that nobody would care if we reverse engineer the format of e.g. the Blaupunkt CDs.

cheers, thorsten

I just wanted to ask if you got in contact with Kim?