I have recently bought a new MKII Empeg for my Acura Integra '94 and am looking for some advice on a reasonable amp for the installation. I am not looking for the most expensive, nor want to waste my money going too cheap. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. I suppose I am looking at the $150 - $300 range

Cheers,
David

You have a very large range of amplifiers to choose from which meet that criteria. Browse around at Crutchfield and get a clearer idea of what you're looking for, then come back with more information:

- Intent to use car's factory speakers or to replace with real speakers?
- Number of speakers and their power handling capacity?
- Intent to install a subwoofer?
- Intent to install yourself or have professionally installed?
- Loud volume levels desired?

- Intent to install yourself or have professionally installed?

And if you do, get recommendations. And even then, take with salt.

An amp remote line hardwired to a blade fuse in the vehicle fusebox by twist-wrapping around the blade is wrong wrong wrong.

Because I don't have enough to do with my time

I'm helping David to help him get this going... He has the stock speakers in his Integra - 4 speakers (4 channel amp). No sub. Install by someone professionally in Bay area. Looking for 20-50 watts per channel. Should have the ability to adjust each channel seperately, but I don't think he needs a crossover... or does he?

As he said, he's just looking to use the empeg instead of the normal head unit, and not looking for pro sound...

- Jon

Should have the ability to adjust each channel seperately, but I don't think he needs a crossover... or does he?

He shouldn't need a crossover just for the factory speakers and no sub. But even in his price range, almost all new amps in that range will have crossovers built-in anyway, you just won't be using them. You won't need to adjust each channel separately, just adjust the levels of the fronts separately from the rears, and again, almost all new amps in that price rage will allow you to do this.

Looks like just about anything will do in his situation.

If I were you, I would ditch the rear speakers and go with some nice components up front, (JL, Infinity, MB Quarts) get a decent 2 channel amp. I have an integra and dont have rears because I sold them after having them a week and then deciding they didnt do anything for the sound. Of course I have a sub in the back so that may make a difference. But all in all I would definately ditch the stock speakers as they suck.

How about something from US Acoustics? I've done quite a bit of research, and have read nothing but good things about their amps. I plan on buying a USX-4085. But if you don't want that much power, there's the smaller USX-4065. As you can see from the links, both of these are available from Crutchfield for very reasonable prices.

Edit: I've also been seeing the 4065 regularly on eBay for even cheaper than Crutchfield's price.

Edit: I've also been seeing the 4065 regularly on eBay for even cheaper than Crutchfield's price.

Exactly. There are a lot of really good, highly rated amps for less than $200 (4x75). One example is the Autotek amp. It has received extremely high marks in the trade and consumer publications. Their specs are great and you can get the "Street Machine" series in the $150-$175 range (4x75). Certainly there are others that are equally as good.

IMO, Crutchfield has great customer support but their prices are sometime 2x what you can buy the same thing for on e-bay.

Look around. You'll find all kinds of opinions. The good news is there are many excellent choices that won't break the bank.

These are great amps but unless he plans to upgrade the speakers they are worthless.

Well, he needs an amp one way or the other. Might as well get something that is descent and he can grow with if he needs it later and...they are at the bottem end of his price range. Certainly he can get cheaper amps and get less quality too. Heck, you can get descent speakers (Like Boston Acoustics or Infinity's for $75 a pair). IMO, while it may be a bit "overkill", I would rather get a good amp for $150 than something crappy for $100. That wouldn't be "worthless" to me.

IMO, Crutchfield has great customer support but their prices are sometime 2x what you can buy the same thing for on e-bay.

I agree. I can usually find things for cheaper elsewhere. The USX-4085 amplifier that I want is the first exception I've found to the rule. I saw it on one or two other sites, but they didn't beat Crutchfield's price on it.

Good point.

Of course, let's take this opportunity to make the standard statement whenever one of these threads comes up...

"The one single thing that can improve the sound of your car stereo the most is the addition of a subwoofer."

There, said it.

"The one single thing that can improve the sound of your car stereo the most is the addition of a subwoofer."

I disagree. In fact, I'm almost sure I heard it put this way: "The one single thing that can improve the sound of your car stereo the most is the addition of an amplifier."

IMO, subs are for people who want others, outside the car, to hear their bass. You can get perfectly good, clean bass out of a set of 2- or 3-way speakers, that's plenty loud enough for any human being.

One example, although I know it may not be common, are the Pioneer 6x9's I run in the rear of my car. The low end of the frequency range dips all the way down to 25Hz. And if I remember correctly, the average human can't hear anything below 20Hz.

I haven't yet been able to get a decent amount of bass out of regular speakers, even 6x9's. I've got a set of Pioneer 6x9's that will go down that low, just not with a flat frequency response. The lower you go in their "range", the less volume you get. You can only push so much bass at so much volume through them before they distort.

I do not use a subwoofer to "boom" down the street. In fact, the stereo sounds perfectly normal outside my car, no excessive boomy-ness.

The thing a subwoofer gives me isn't "boom". It's a proper flattening out of the low frequency response, as well as the ability to bring the low frequencies up so that they can be heard above the road noise.

Exactly I run a JL 10" (traded my JL 12" to some punk) and a set of MB quarts components up front. The key is have different speakers for different frequencies. When you try to push all the frequencies through even a 6x9 3-way every in the midrange and below gets horribly distorted with any amount of bass. Numerous times have I checked to see how loud my system is outside my car and the bass isnt overwhelming.

Thanks all for answering....I have decided on a Rockford Fosgate 300x. I know this is over kill for the speakers (they will be next) but did not want to waste money on an amp that would not be useful in the future.....again - thanks for the feedback.

Well then, I shall have to keep this in mind after I put that amp put in. And since the car was designed to have components up front, I intend to get a pair.

So far, I haven't noticed any terrible amount of distortion in the midrange or bass frequencies, which happen to be the frequencies that sound better from the rear speakers, even at the highest volume I use on the CD receiver. I expect it will be cleaner with an amp. The only real problem I have is the plastic panels (especially the rear deck) vibrating with the bass.

So after the amp, I'll want to stop that rattling from the panels in the rear deck and the doors, and then I shall give thought to a sub. But only if and after I notice unacceptable distortion from the 6x9's.

Thanks goes to Tony and others again, for teaching me yet another lesson about car audio.

PPI makes some nice amps, their smaller ones are in that range.

The last few larger amps I've purchased have been Soundstream ... see what Soundstream amps are running for on Ebay. Very high quality.

Greg

if you like a clear sound and if you use good chassis my reommendation is the Helix by Brax (http://www.audiotec-fischer.de/index2.html). i have got one and it is very neutral i never had a thing like that. by the way here is a list of my equipment. Head Unit RioCar MK2a 10Gig Steeringwheel Remote Pioneer CD-SR80 Amplifier Helix by Brax HXA 40 Front Speakers Canton Pullman RS 2.16 Woofer Visaton GF 250 in a Custom Box Access to Head Unit Wireless LAN Apple Airport Base Station gaphite in a Golf III but the most important part by choosing your equipment is your own taste!!! good luck and happy installation

Totally disagree....It is impossible to get the output from woofers that you can get from a sub that is installed correctly with the right amplification. I am running infinity separates in my tiny Miata and have installed an 8 inch JL audio sub under the passenger foot well and there is no comparison...i would never ever attempt to install a high end system without a sub

just a sub makes it fun. and i don´t speak about high power and hurting. it is just a fact that only a sub is creating dynamic moods. so you loose a little bit of your trunk but you gain al ot of fun. it is worth it, my point of view, of course.

edsmiata, that's all well and good, but output is not the issue for me. The point is having the sound be good enough. Not my-neighbors-know-I'm-on-my-way-home-when-I-turn-the-corner-a-mile-up-the-road. I'm sure I could find a happy medium with a sub. But I will do so only if after testing the audio without it, I decide that I need it to clean up the sound. I could care less what other people, like you, think of my install. I am not attempting to create a high end system or impress anyone.

And had you read the other posts, you would have seen that Tony and others had already made their point about having a sub, without indicating that my opinion is wrong, and that I had already thanked them for their help.

Not my-neighbors-know-I'm-on-my-way-home-when-I-turn-the-corner-a-mile-up-the-road.

Your perception of subwoofers is being clouded by those who abuse them.

When you hear someone coming from a mile away because his stereo is booming, not only is he making the music sound terrible inside his vehicle, but he's doing it with insane amounts of amplification and multiple subwoofers.

That's not the kind of sub I'm talking about. I'm not talking about multiple sets of bandpass 12" push-pull subs in the open back of a slammed pickup truck.

I mean a single 10" sub, preferably in a sealed enclosure, tuned so that it only gently fills in the low frequencies with a nice, dry, flat, non-boomy response. A sound that is no more audible outside the vehicle than the regular speakers. A properly installed and tuned sub is as "transparent" as the regular speakers.

On my car, you can't hear me coming down the street any sooner than you would if I didn't have a subwoofer. The only difference is that when I get close enough so you can hear me, you hear a nice pleasing frequency response that includes the correct amount of bass.

What about a Helix or Brax from audiotec-fischer.com/index2.html?
The sound is cristal-clear, the amp is small, and support is great!
I use two Helix amps (one 4 channel for the speakers and a bridged two-channel for the sub). Believe me there's nothing better in this price-range ;-)

Tony, I understand all this. It's already been made quite clear to me. That other joker was simply putting it to me that I'm wrong for thinking I can replace my head unit with an empeg, get new speakers and an amp, and not have a sub.

I don't subscribe to that perception about subwoofers. Hell, I have one on my computer speakers and it sounds great. I'll never have to pump the audio through the entertainment center for my tunes to sound good.

If the speakers alone can do a good enough job for my ears, then that is all that matters. Because it's my car. I would simply like to avoid having to put one in the car if I can. But I haven't ruled it out.

Not my-neighbors-know-I'm-on-my-way-home-when-I-turn-the-corner-a-mile-up-the-road yep Tony, but who cares about neighbors if the sound is like you said?!!! not me!!!!!!

exact, it is your choice!

I think what many people here were trying to say about subwoofers - is just because you have one doesn't mean you'll be waking up your neighbors from a mile away.

I had a 10 inch sub in my integra a while back, and although I'm just hammering the point in, I could rarely detect it while standing outside the car - especially at the volumes I generally ran it at. It was an inexpensive yet very worthwhile upgrade to the sound in the car - and contrary to what you believe, it was not a "high end" upgrade by any means. It was just a plain old Polk 10 inch inside a basic box running off of an average Kenwood amp - the whole package was less than $300.

Now, I agree with you that you can have the sound "good enough" without a sub, but your perception of a sub to wake up your neighbors is what I disagree with. I had new JL XR components installed in my car last year - and while waiting for my new amp to arrive - I had only the components hooked up - no sub. The JLs sounded awesome and I was surprised at how much bass they were able to produce - this would certainly have fallen in the "good enough" category - albeit the speakers themselves were about $300 at the time. When I had the sub wired up when my new amp arrived a few weeks later - there was just no comparison, however. Using the crossover on the amp - this only improved the performance of my JLs, in that they no longer had to reproduce the lows - although they did a fine job of doing so, the sub was much better suited for this purpose.

I hope you do decide to at least try out a sub or listen to one - just something as a simple boxed 10 inch, nothing fancy or expensive - can make an awesome difference and really bring out some things in your music that you didn't hear before. Most of the time the bass you hear from cars on the street comes from rap music - and not that I have a problem with rap music but it tends to have a lot of bass. I listen to a lot of techno, rock, and metal - and there tends to be less BOOM BOOM BOOM bass (with the exception of techno). I occasionally pull up some classical from the Baroque era (I like harpsichords) and you can tell there too.

It was just a plain old Polk 10 inch inside a basic box running off of an average Kenwood amp - the whole package was less than $300.

Sounds exactly like my setup. Sealed hatchback box?

If the speakers alone can do a good enough job for my ears, then that is all that matters. Because it's my car. I would simply like to avoid having to put one in the car if I can. But I haven't ruled it out.

Fair enough, sounds good to me. I don't mean to sound like I was coming down on you in my last post - I wasn't meaning to... I actually tend to agree with you about the waking up your neighbors kind of bass - I mean - well, some of my friends started out with a simple box, then it seemed like every 3 months they were buying more and bigger subs and more amps, just for the sole reason of being loud - and not really caring about accuracy.

Sealed hatchback box?

Yup, plain and simple box. I used it in my last two cars until the sub died and had to be replaced.

Yikes. I'm using a Polk DX 10-inch with a Jensen amp. Do you have any idea why the sub died, and do you think I should be worried about the same thing happening to mine?

Hmm I can't really remember - I had a Polk db10 - and it was in use for ohh I think 4 years. I remember it wasnt because the coil got too hot, but there was rubbing between the voice coil and the magnet - it was clearly evident when it was taken apart. I wouldn't really worry about it, I think this was sort of a fluke from what my friend told me - he installs car stereos for a living.

... but your perception of a sub to wake up your neighbors is what I disagree with...

Am I typing invisible sentences? I already said that I don't believe subs are just for people who want to boom on down the street. I'm trying to save money here.

I think he was in the middle of typing that reply when you were typing yours. Crossed messages.

Oh. Hadn't thought to check the post times. Oops.

Although I'm afraid to kick start the flamewar, I have to admit I have been in various cars with subwoofers and not seen an improvement in sound quality over my sub-less install. In fact in general I have seen a huge degradation in quality.

I am more than prepared to believe that this is down to the particular configuration in these cars, but am a little confused by how a subwoofer really helps in a car.

At home, definitely - it fills in the sound gap at the bottom end, and just makes the sound bigger, but in the car road noise covers that frequency range, so you need to turn it up too high to make a difference and then it just hurts. Easier just to ignore the very low end of the frequency range.

What I tend to do is have the volume set up in my car so I can hear the songs above my own singing and it all seems fine. And that is just with stock Impreza speakers, which are pretty basic.

I would like to be convinced that a subwoofer will be worth the loss of space in the boot, but experience has shown me otherwise. So far.

I just wanted to get my feet wet here for a second..

I do not have a sub in my car, and am running the factory speakers. I have a Clarrion 4 way armd with 300 wats. I am pleased with the sound as is, but am aware that it could be better. But for my non competition tuned ears it suits my purpose and thats what is important. Me.

I dont believe I have ever been in a car with a sub installed. I could be missing more, and know that - and this may be a case of what I dont know wont hurt me. Ignorance is bliss, and all that.

I do believe that a lot of the punks in my neighborhood have their subs thumping too loud on purpose, just for the shock value when they pull up next to me. But I must admit, that does not help a sub reputatuon much when the only exposure you get is THUMP THUMP THUMP from half a mile away.

I would love to hear Tonys set up with a properly adjusted sub. If I did my mouth would probably water and I would have to go get one. On the other hand, maybe I better not. I am kinda happy the way I am now.

Chill out pal........

I can stay "chilled" just fine as long as people don't tell me how to do things. Are you going to be in my car? Would I care what you thought if you were? Do you think I would let you listen to your stuff if you were, Mr. Subs Are Mandatory? No, it would be my empeg in the dash, not yours.

Learn to respect other people's opinions and come up with a reason for disagreeing instead of just telling them that they are wrong for not wanting to do it your way.

Perhaps now you might understand, and will use your brain before you piss off the next guy.

I know this is over kill for the speakers

Don't worry about overkill,
I have a Rockford Fosgate 800.4 running my 4 factory speakers
and a bd1000.1 running 2 500watt 10" Rockford subs.

<note to self> time to upgrade my speakers </note to self>

..i can not be blamed for other peoples insecurities......what you have done is taken my opinion on a TOPIC and turned it into what you think is my opinion of YOU...i don't even know you and judging by your defensive posture...am glad to keep it that way...in the future keep to the subject of these forums and not your own personal problems and we will all be better informed and happier for it....i think the password is "GROW-UP"

That is exactly what I was refraining from saying to you. I thought I would express my thoughts in a civilized manner, about the rude way you stated your opinion. And doing that gets me called a child. I wonder who is more immature here.

Go back to your little Miata with your little high-end system. I am through attempting to be civilized with someone who is intent on ruining my day if he can. You remind me of the type that goes into a chat room to start fights. I don't go in chats anymore.

...I'm sorry..were you speaking me me???

I would love to hear Tonys set up with a properly adjusted sub. If I did my mouth would probably water and I would have to go get one.

My stereo is not a particularly spectacular one in terms of sound quality. It's got four reasonably good speakers in the factory locations, a reasonably good subwoofer in the trunk, and a moderate amount of amplification. It's tuned and tweaked reasonably well, but not perfect. It's by no means a "mouth-watering" system. I've heard those kinds of systems, and I know mine doesn't come close.

What I do know is that the subwoofer is what turned my system from "just not good enough" to "more than good enough".

but am a little confused by how a subwoofer really helps in a car. (...) At home, definitely - it fills in the sound gap at the bottom end, and just makes the sound bigger (...)

Exactly. The same things that make subwoofers sound good in home stereo systems is what makes them sound good in cars.

but in the car road noise covers that frequency range, so you need to turn it up too high to make a difference and then it just hurts.

Because most car speaker systems simply can't reproduce that frequency range at all, it's not just a question of compensating for road noise. It's about getting the music to sound right, with or without road noise.

If you're in a car where "it just hurts", then the system simply isn't tuned well.

I would like to be convinced that a subwoofer will be worth the loss of space in the boot, but experience has shown me otherwise. So far.

I understand what you're saying, and I know the kind of experience you've had. It's too bad you're in Scotland, otherwise I'd demonstrate my system for you...

Would you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intruiging.

I would like to be convinced that a subwoofer will be worth the loss of space in the boot, but experience has shown me otherwise. So far.

Whether or not I could convince you depends more on how important your music is to you than how your music sounds.

If, like the great majority of car owners, you have music in your car because it's better than just listening to silence or road noise, then you don't need a subwoofer. I make no assertion that there is anything wrong with this point of view. Even though it is not my outlook, it is perfectly valid.

If, on the other hand, your music is important, nay, essential to your driving enjoyment, then you need a subwoofer. Not a big box full of 12" subs cranked up to the max -- a single 10" in a sealed enclosure will give your music a warmth, a presence, an ambience that you just can't get any other way.

No amount of proselytizing on my part will convince you of this, so I'll stop now. But if there's any way you can manage it, find someone with a really good sounding, properly tuned, competition quality stereo in his car, and listen to it. Then, turn off the subwoofer(s) and listen again. You will be astounded by the difference.

tanstaafl.

Totally agree....I have my sub in the drivers compartment of the car and the soundstage with the sub on is many times over better than when it is off...and with the priceless parametric equalizer (the only one on the market, i'll bet) built into the unit you can tweak the system to perfection....i am driving a JL audio sub with an MTX 4244 4ch amp with the rear channels bridged into the sub, which as a dual voice coil and, thus a 2 ohm resistance, and the excersion on the driver is amazing! I think I am pushing about 150 watts through it, but it could easily take more. A class D mono amp of 350-500 watts would be just about perfect as this sub just absorbs as much power as you can give it........

the possibilites are endless!

If, on the other hand, your music is important, nay, essential to your driving enjoyment, then you need a subwoofer.

Right. I'll take a moment to make this point again (I'm sure I've said it before, but it certainly bears repeating):

Some feel that the car is a poor place to spend your prime audio dollar. Why sink a lot of money into making your car system sound good? The car is a terrible listening environment, due to things like road noise and the acoustic limitations of car interiors.

To that, I answer with the following points:

- I spend a lot of time in my car. During that time, there is nothing to do other than operate the vehicle. Listening to music is the perfect pastime in the car, it's basically the only thing I can do safely while driving. So I listen to a lot of music in the car.

- When I'm not driving, I'm busy doing other things. Rarely do I have the opportunity to listen intently to music except when I'm driving. If I listen to music at home or in the office, it's usually just background music because I can't concentrate on the music very well while I'm doing other home-type things. And I can't make myself sit down on the couch and close my eyes to listen to music. Even when I have the time to do it, it never works. I'm always interrupted, or I think of something else I need to do, or whatever. So the car is a much better environment for me in terms of being able to actually hear the music.

- When I am alone in my car, as long as I have the windows rolled up, I can listen to it as loud as I like without disturbing anyone else.

- The car interior might have limitations to its acoustic properties, but those limitations are well-known and you can work around them. A decent car system can easily outdo most home systems in terms of audio quality.

That's why I go to the trouble of doing things like buying empegs and installing subwoofers. Music is an important part of my life, and having the best possible car audio is a critical component of that.

To re-iterate Doug's point: I totally understand people who say that they don't care about how good their car stereo sounds. This is a perfectly valid point of view. But for me, it would be unthinkable to drive every day without having a car audio system that wasn't up to my standards.

A class D mono amp of 350-500 watts would be just about perfect as this sub just absorbs as much power as you can give it........

I just got rid of a Class D mono amp in my car, and couldn't be happier to see it go!

If I were trying to drive a 12" subwoofer and make as much noise as possible, then a Class D would be the way to go. The good thing about a Class D is that it is extremely efficient -- the amount of output you get for a given amount of input power consumption is nearly double that of a class A/B amp (the kind that nearly all of us use). The bad thing about a class D is that this efficiency is gained by very aggressive filtering of the higher frequencies in the pre-amp stage. A typical Class D amplifier will have a maximum high frequency output of 125 Hz. That means all you are going to get is "Blumph Blumph Blumph".

I cross my subs over at nearly 1000 Hz, and by so doing I get a much cleaner, warmer sound that actually has tonality to it. Subwoofers are for more than just drum beats!

That said, there's no reason that you should try to make your stereo sound just like mine does. If you like the sound of a Class D subwoofer amp, then that's the right amp for you.

tanstaafl.

To that, I answer with the following points:

I could not agree more, you said exactly what I was thinking as I was mulling over the last few posts.

Ever since middle school when I became interested in music - I have always had problems with disturbing people with my loud music - my parents, then in college - the freaking RA's, and now I have matured to the point where I rarely play loud music in my apartment. Partially out of respect for my neighbors, and partially out of the point you pointed out, I am usually doing other things at home and don't usually commit the time to sit on my couch and listen to music.

I also found - at least for dampening road noise and improving the output from your door speakers and even in your trunk - that a few sheets of Dynamat go a long long way. I had the opportunity to listen to my old car's speakers with and without Dynamat installed in the doors, and it made a remarkable difference. Note that some newer cars may not need it though, a lot of newer cars have more road noise dampening materials installed in the floors and doors.

Now - either way you look at it, I think something that everyone here can agree with is that the Empeg is essential - having a ton of music and the freedom and ability to bring up anything you want to listen to is awesome, whether you are listening to it on a top dollar system or a plain, bare bones stock system.