Tony, by Afghanistan, I was refering to how we helped the very same people we ended up fighting by giving them weapons to shoot at the Soviets some 20 years earlier. In hindsight, I still think it was worth it.

Ah. Yes. That. I tend to agree... At the time, it made sense. How were we to know in the 1980's what 2001 was going to look like? We certainly weren't very close in 1968.

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Until a few more Americans realise that you often come off as arogant a lot of the time things, aren't going to change, a large proportion of the world is going to hate you. Sorry.

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That makes sense. Even if it has little or no founding. That's pretty much why many American's don't care for France (and this goes WAY back to post-WWII). Another reason being that we have a strong loyalty to Britan and after seeing how the French had the gaul to build castles in England with only "Mind your own business" as an excuse...

P.S. What is the point of having three Starbucks stores within several hundred metres of each other ?

As Bitt casually alluded to, even Americans have no idea how to answer that one.

It's not being forced down their throats. McD's and Starbucks wouldn't be over there unless they were making money, and they wouldn't be making money if people weren't going there. So do these people take a sip of Starbucks and then say, "Damn you America! This coffee is so good I can't stop myself from drinking it!"

I think it has more to do with jealousy.

I guess people are being forced to eat at McDonalds, drink coffee at Starbucks, and buy books at Borders? Seems to me if people were so fed up with those things, they wouldn't spend their hard earned pounds, francs, and guilders there... right?

If I want to buy coffee or books, I pretty much do have to go to those places, as they've driven almost everyone else out of business.

I pretty much do have to go to those places, as they've driven almost everyone else out of business.

Well if everyone (or most) felt the same way, then McDonald's, Starbucks, and Borders would be driven out of business.

What precarious position are you referring to?

I'm not talking about precarious in a military sense. I mean in a political sense. We've alienated ourselves from the U.N... We've made enemies with France (oooh la la!)... et cetera. We (along with the good British blokes across the pond, our Aussie friends down under, and, curiously, our new Polish brethren) are the ones fighting the war while everyone else hedges their bets with reactions ranging from complete condemnation, to unofficial acknowledgements that we're doing the right thing, but "sssh! don't tell anyone" because it's not popular to agree with ANYTHING the U.S. does.

If I want to buy coffee or books, I pretty much do have to go to those places, as they've driven almost everyone else out of business.

Wow. I can't comment on your situation, but there are a million other places I can go around here for those items.

Actually, they (we?) weren't taxing the tea - but that was precisely the problem.

I stand corrected.

There are certainly certain areas of the country (I don't know where Exton is, eastern PA?) that have a stronger local-owned feel to them. Here is not one, unfortunately.

Exton is about 20-30 minutes west of Philadelphia. There are enough Borders' around, but there are also plenty of Barnes and Nobles. B&N is another pseudo-monopoly, so, if you like, you can also go to smaller chains like Gene's Books, or mom&pop places, most of which are near universities. Coffee you can get anywhere... Convenience stores, diners... For a true "coffee shop" feel, there's also plenty of those left. I would imagine Starbucks is taking away from their business, but, so far at least, they haven't sank too many of them.

Anyone else find it funny that the film "You've Got Mail" was about a small little book shop that was being forced out of business by a large bookstore chain when the movie was sponsored by AOL (who put many local ISP's out of business) and Starbucks (where 1/2 the movie seemed to take place)?

This same hatred for Western "culture" is the main reason that we are and will always be the target of terrorism. It has nothing to do with our troops being on holy land or our support for Israel. Every terror suspect or supporter that I've heard make a statement has expressed this point. They will use topics like Israel and troops in Saudi Arabia to gather support, but their fundamental complaint is our life style. So before anyone gets too bend out of shape by our films and our fast food establishments - consider what that hatred might lead to.

Maybe I'm spoiled living in the suburbs, but I've got plenty of choice when it comes to coffee shops (don't diners sell coffee anymore?) or book stores. To be honest, how many people in the US were drinking cafe late's every morning before Starbucks came to your town? I think they've actually created a market.

It's too bad that people that hate it so much simply don't ignore it. Hate Hollywood films? Go to your local art theater and view an indie or foreign film. Hate Nike? Buy another shoe. Hate the way our women dress? Don't apply for citizenship here no matter how tempting our Welfare program is (or simply stay home and don't watch MTV if you do.)

I hate mainstream music - that's why I bought my empeg!

If I want to buy coffee or books, I pretty much do have to go to those places, as they've driven almost everyone else out of business.

That's not true. I love coffee. I drink coffee black. Since I don't load it up with sugar and cream, I can really taste the coffee. I find that Starbucks practically burns their coffee and should probably change their name to Charbucks. Due to this, if I want some coffee, starbucks is my last choice. I never have a problem finding non-Starbucks coffee.

I also buy books at Amazon.

I know this is a thread about war, but I just wanted to say that not all coffee drinkers like Starbucks. I think this might be the first political thread I've ever replied to actually.

I'll have to admit that I don't drink coffee, and think that Borders (and, to a lesser extent, B&N) are actually a good thing, mostly (as they have a lot of books and their clerks are often quite knowledgeable, unlike what You've Got Mail implied), so I'm talking out of my ass somewhat.

I am quote pissed off about music shops, though. It's almost impossible anymore to find someone who knows jack about music. I still lust after stores like the one found in High Fidelity, but they are few and far between these days (although I do frequent a few of them).

I guess my problem has more to do with the dumbing-down and homogenizing of Americans. So just ignore me. (As if you weren't already.)

I think the folks at the Black Bear Co. agree with you.

Their 'Mr. Charbucks' tastes pretty close. They're being sued by the evil empire for this name.

-Zeke

Until a few more Americans realise that you often come off as arogant a lot of the time things, aren't going to change, a large proportion of the world is going to hate you. Sorry.

That makes sense. Even if it has little or no founding.

Unfortunately, it *does* have founding. I've had this conversation before, so I've had a long, long time to think about this. I'm a non- (okay, half) American, living in the US for the last year and a half -- take that as you will.

Where do foreigners (i.e. non-Americans living outside the US) get their impressions of the US? In rough order of least to most likely, here's what I've seen:

a) travel to the US,
b) Americans travelling to *their* country,
c) American media,
d) American foreign policy.

(a) is probably the least likely way for people to develop a negative attitude towards Americans. Yeah, there's a lot of tourism, but if people are travelling to the US, then they're likely already above the stereotypes that make people hate Americans, not to mention that they'll have had the opportunity to mingle with the regular populace. Similarly, the percentage of people involved in (a) is miniscule compared to the number of people who are unable to do things like that.

The next option for learning about America is (b), and... well... the US doesn't have the most steller reputation there. American tourists are often (not always) seen as obnoxious, un-cultured, un-educated boobs. Though I haven't the personal experience, all of my (Canadian) friends that have extensive travel experience have caught Americans travelling incognito with Canadian flags on their backpacks, because they don't want to be known as American. The "obnoxious" and "un-cultured" bits likely stem from the people that go out and paint the town red. Even if you drop the "obnoxious" and "un-cultured" bits, you still have the un-educated to think about. The economics of the US gives their population of great unwashed masses the ability to travel the world, but the state of education about foreign lands is apalling -- it shines through like water in a urinal (to borrow a line from Shakespeare). The lack of knowledge about things outside the US is often combined with an expectation that things change to be more American-centric. To a non-American, this expectation of change to suit your ideas is arrogant. Fortunately, the US also has representatives like jimhogan travelling the world.

The next most common way for people to learn about Americans is (c). The US exports their media all over the world, and it's all pro-US, often to the point of being nauseating. This is part of the culture ingrained into the American people, so I doubt many even recognize they do it. It's the whole patriotism thing -- "we're the best" is the mantra, and it's repeated so often that it's arrogant, and offensive. Yes, America is damn good, but so are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Japan, the UK, and a whole host of other countries.

Then there is film and television, filled with... crap. To make films more palatable for the American audience, studios are more than willing to modify history so that Americans have all the good bits. For example, in U-571, why, exactly, was it necessary to fictionalize the story so that it was the Americans that captured the Enigma machine, instead of the British? To an American, it's a good story. To a non-American, it's insulting, and yet another feather in the cap of arrogance worn by the US.

Which brings us to (d), the most likely way for people to form an opinion about Americans -- it's what affects them the most. Someone else mentioned "yeah, the US government makes mistakes". They also said they learn from it. I don't think that's the case. I think the government makes mistakes, but they rarely learn from it at all. The current administration sure didn't seem to, anyway. A lot of foreign policy *is* as bullying. Furthermore, it's meddling in places where the US has no business in meddling -- the sovereign affairs of other nations or regions -- Isreal/Palestine, Chile, Vietnam, Panama, Bangladesh, etc. Yes, some of it is with good intentions, but often it's only to protect the interests of American government and corporations, paying the merest of lip service to the humanitarian reasons the intervention is supposedly for. For instance, the democratically president-elect of Chile was bumped off because a) he had socialist leanings, and b) he wanted to improve his nation economically by improving the copper mining industry to reduce dependance on the US. The end result was Pinochet. Of course, I don't need to remind you that American meddling brought about both Saddam *and* Osama. Yes, the US does good things, but it has such a huge history of double dealings and un-fulfilled obligations that it has committed to, that American foreign policy is "difficult" to trust, and the manner it's carried out in (both by current and some past administrations) is nothing short of arrogant. The American people have built up the President into such an icon that to people outside the US, the President *is* America. Sometimes he makes a good representative, but at the moment, he's just an embaressment.

Is it fair that so much of that falls on the shoulders of the American populace? No. Is it right that people have stereotyped Americans? No. But there *is* a reason stereotypes exist, and when three out of the four methods of learning about real Americans is less than exemplary towards Americans in general, they *aren't* going away quick.

My 2 cents.

Can I just sum it up as "we suck"?

I'm not being sarcastic. I mean that.

Shall we blame it all on Hollywood

I think it's a conspiracy with Hollywood to generate more movie themes. I'm waiting for the action movie where a small group of soldiers is sent on a mission and discovers a WMD and a renegade in the group is determined to set it off which would provoke an all out nuke war but is overcome by his comrades at the last moment and he remembers his family, the US flag, apple pie and relents and the whole thing is covered up.

Well if everyone (or most) felt the same way, then McDonald's, Starbucks, and Borders would be driven out of business.

starbuck and mcdonalds can afford to make huge losses for a long time in one area in by dropping their prices rediculously low for an extended period. the local shops cant compete with that and are forced to close and the chain stores rocket their prices up.
Consumers vote with their wallet most of the time

I think that is probably because there isn't a Chinese book shop, a Chinese burger restaurant, a Chinese pizza palour, a Chinese coffee shop and a cinema showing 95% Chinese films in every shopping centre...

Apparently there's a shopping centre like that in North London somewhere... I haven't been there, but I'm told it rules...

Peter

Can I just sum it up as "we suck"?

no. I have a friend who is married to an American, and she's a lovely person. The same is probably true for 90% of Americans. The same is probably true for 90% of most people in the world. Decent, intelligent, thinking people.
The problem seems to be the Adminstration and its self interest and short sigtedness. Why wouldn't Bush sign the Kyota Protocol? To protect America's interests. Too bad if those interest may be different in ten years.
Americans appear to be 'too close' to it's own affairs to really see what the rest of the world does. (same with any country, I'll wager). It's like watching a kid being naughty in a shop and thinking "i'll never let my child get away with that". But given the same circumstance, your own child may behave the same way and you don't do anything.

I do wonder if the US comments about the Iraqi Soldiers not playing fair were more that they weren't reacting in ways they had trained for and their forces were being humiliated.

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The same is probably true for 90% of Americans. The same is probably true for 90% of most people in the world.

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Your post is what I meant by "no founding". I live near Detroit, home of the US auto industry. We have "boobs" from the UK, Germany and Japan here all the time. They are often cocky, arrogant dip-sh1ts. But that in no way effects my opinion of the rest of the people from their countries. So while it is a "cause" for an opinion, it not a foundation for a fact.

Think about this: Most American's in Europe are snobby rich kids or overpaid business people. I'm by no means living in poverty but do you think I could afford to "vacation in Europe"? A plane ticket would cost more than my first car. So that's how I look at the people visiting Detroit - they are just overpaid jerks (I'm exaggerating here - I have met a lot of nice people from abroad) who were given a company credit card paid for by BMW. And if I did travel to Europe, I probably WOULD wear a Canadian flag out of fear - not because I was embarrissed. Canada has the luxury of having a big, protective brother living next door. They can just sit there and work on their own affairs knowning that they'll never be threatened (admittedly, more than 1/2 the reason they aren't threatened is because they don't get involved in international affairs.) So if I wear a Canadian flag, I'm less likely to have bad things happen to me.

BTW: I wouldn't call advancing 200 miles into Iraq with only 20 - 30 loses out of 250,000 troops being "humiliated". The US is starting to whine about that stuff, but I think they are just sick of being asked stupid questions like "how many babies are YOU going to kill today" when they are going out of their way to avoid such things and are spending millions of dollars per munition rather than a few thousand on a bomb to ensure it doesn't happen. So even though they are the only side involved in this counflict that would never hurt a civilian unless it was accidental, many news outlets are failing to report this.

I drink coffee black. Since I don't load it up with sugar and cream, I can really taste the coffee. I find that Starbucks practically burns their coffee and should probably change their name to Charbucks

I'll second that!!! I switched to roasting my own green coffee beans where I am in control of my own coffee... Burning beans is a way to cover up poor quality coffee, remember the Kona bean scandal a few years ago. Charbucks was the biggest buyer of the non-Kona Kona beans... And you don't roast island grown coffees to a dark roast, it kills the qualities of that varietal...

To be sort of on topic... did the UN have hospitals and schools on their list of sites to look for clues to chem/bio/wmd programs? Because that's where we're starting to find evidence that the stuff really exsists...

he's just an embaressment

HE'S just an embaRRAssment?

So just ignore me.

I, for one, quite agree with you about the bookstores. I like borders and buy a lot of books there. I don't drink coffee, so Starbucks isn't really an issue, and I avoid McDonald’s if at all possible (though admittedly I do crave their fries sometimes).

As for music stores, I’ve all but given up when it comes to new music. I’m still checking out a bunch of those older albums we listed in the “desert island” thread, but as far as new stuff I’ve only bought two albums released in the last two years, both of which are from bands I’ve long respected and know well. My Empeg also exacerbates this problem of finding new music, but that’s a whole other thread. In the end, I buy all of my music online and this suits me just fine.

Moving on to the rest of the discussion, as for this whole “The U.S. is jamming its culture down our throats” thing, let me try to understand it a bit. We do practice, at lest to some extent, economic Darwinism in this country. The weak die, sometimes even if the product/ service being offered is superior to everything else because they aren’t the “fittest” for the market (can anyone think of a good example?). How this relates to the economics of other countries I’ll have to admit ignorance, but I’d at least gather that this “survival of the fittest” capitalism isn’t limited to this country. Still, this thread has identified some of the big boys from the U.S., and they are resented because of their successfulness. Is this because this sort of market dominance wouldn’t be tolerated from European companies? Are there rules of some sort protecting against the strong growing too strong? If so, I suppose the resentment is against the U.S. allowing these companies to become so large. If not, then I can’t see why the success of these companies has anything to do with the U.S. itself.

As has been stated before, if people don’t like these companies or their products, no one is forcing their patronage. That the majority of the populace seems to frequent these places (or at least enough to keep them successful) is an indication that whatever resentment there is, it isn’t enough to override the “need” to possess whatever it is can be obtained from these places. It is enough, however, to dislike the U.S. for “forcing” this need upon them.

And if I did travel to Europe, I probably WOULD wear a Canadian flag out of fear - not because I was embarrissed. Canada has the luxury of having a big, protective brother living next door. They can just sit there and work on their own affairs knowning that they'll never be threatened (admittedly, more than 1/2 the reason they aren't threatened is because they don't get involved in international affairs.) So if I wear a Canadian flag, I'm less likely to have bad things happen to me.

Regardless of motive, false flag operations are cowardly and liable to get you shot as a spy.

Well, in war anyway. But I can't see how you are helping the situation at all? If all the intelligent, thoughtful and worldly US citizens pretend to be Canadian when abroad, leaving only the loud, arrogant and ignorant US citizens to fly the US flag abroad, just where in the World would people get the misconceived idea that USAians are loud, arrogrant and ignorant?!

How can you plead allegiance to your flag one week, and hide behind another the next? Don't actions speak louder than words? How does lying to everyone you meet abroad sit with true US values of honesty and respect? And just how is that fair to your northern neighbors?

> How can you plead allegiance to your flag

I've always wondered - do they really put flags in the corners of every elementary school classroom and get the kids to pledge allegiance each morning, or is it just on TV?

This is so completely opposite to British (ok, English) attitudes, that it seems bizarre. What happens if a kid refuses to do it?

http://www.kare11.com/news/news-article.asp?NEWS_ID=44083

For example, in U-571, why, exactly, was it necessary to fictionalize the story so that it was the Americans that captured the Enigma machine, instead of the British? To an American, it's a good story. To a non-American, it's insulting, and yet another feather in the cap of arrogance worn by the US.

I know I'm going off on another tangent, but I really like movies, so I thought I'd comment on this one.

I think it's insulting, or at least embarrasing, to Americans that that plot point was changed. At least to those Americans who can pick out the countries involved on a map, which is not many, unfortunately. Not that the rest of the plot had much resemblance to what really happened.

There's been a lot of talk that Hollywood sucks. In my mind, this is sort of a microcosm of the whole ``the US sucks'' argument. Hollywood makes a lot of putrid, stultifying shit. But it also does manage to make some good stuff. Sure, there are a lot of good movies that are made in Britain or Spain or Italy or Australia or New Zealand. But they make crap movies, too.

I guess my point is that if you pick through the crud, there are a lot of fine examples still there. And that goes for US citizens as well as for Hollywood movies.

I've always wondered - do they really put flags in the corners of every elementary school classroom and get the kids to pledge allegiance each morning, or is it just on TV?

While I don't ever remember reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in school (well, maybe once or twice at an assembly or something -- certainly not every morning or once a week), it doesn't sound like the sort of thing that would be remarkably uncommon, either. (Edit: I'm in Raleigh, NC, which, along with Wake County in general, while within the Bible Belt, is probably an island of non-Bible-Belt-ness, despite the fact that the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary is in Wake Forest. Also, I went to public school from 1978-1991, if my math is correct.)

While we may be pledging allegiance to something that 23% of Americans don't believe in, at least we're not pledging allegiance to GWB.