#155221 - 14/04/2003 20:03
Parallel Universes
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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I'm sure I could have dropped this somewhere into that other thread in General, but what the heck. Parallel Universes Not just a staple of science fiction, other universes are a direct implication of cosmological observations (from Scientific American.com).
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#155222 - 14/04/2003 20:08
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Well, if there is an exact copy of me out there somewhere, I wish he'd swing by *our* universe, because I could sure use an extra copy of myself to do my laundry, wash my car, and go get me beer.
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#155223 - 14/04/2003 20:12
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Okay, it makes sense and all, but the idea that if our universe is infinitely large then there must be copies of us somewhere (the monkey-typewriter-Shakespeare argument, not quantum parallel universes) is extra-creepy.
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Bitt Faulk
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#155224 - 14/04/2003 20:19
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: tonyc]
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addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
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How do you know he will be willing to do your laundry, wash your car and get you beer?
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#155225 - 14/04/2003 20:40
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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How do you know he will be willing to do your laundry, wash your car and get you beer? Because the theory outlined in the article says that somewhere, in a parallel universe, there is an exact copy of me who WILL be willing to do it. Telling him apart from the infinite number of other copies of me that aren't willing to do it would be difficult, though.
And if that doesn't work, I'd split the beer with him, and, if he's an exact copy of me, he'd be okay with that arrangement.
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#155226 - 14/04/2003 21:30
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: canuckInOR]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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#155227 - 15/04/2003 04:40
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Well, if there is an exact copy of me out there somewhere, I wish he'd swing by *our* universe, because I could sure use an extra copy of myself to do my laundry, wash my car, and go get me beer. Now that is funny.  It's good to know that we here on this BBS are always grounded in the practical!
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#155228 - 15/04/2003 06:41
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: JeffS]
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addict
Registered: 05/06/2002
Posts: 497
Loc: Hartsville, South Carolina for...
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In a literary vein, I always found Stephen King and Peter Staub's version of the parallel universe concept interesting. The Talisman, and the sequel Black House. As usual the original is better.
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Michael West
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#155229 - 15/04/2003 06:59
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: revlmwest]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Speaking of fiction, this makes me think of the movie "The One" where Jet Li has to kill of all of his doubles in an infinite number of parallel universes, where "infinite" is curiously defined as something like "250."
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#155230 - 15/04/2003 07:04
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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where "infinite" is curiously defined as something like "250." Maybe they only had 8 bits allocated to store each Parallel Universe ID in the multiverse's kernel code.
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#155231 - 15/04/2003 07:06
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: tonyc]
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addict
Registered: 05/06/2002
Posts: 497
Loc: Hartsville, South Carolina for...
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Quit it the secretaries just came to my office to make sure I was ok.....
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Michael West
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#155232 - 15/04/2003 09:12
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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About the author at the end of the linked article:
MAX TEGMARK wrote a four-dimensional version of the computer game Tetris while in college. In another universe, he went on to become a highly paid software developer. In our universe, however, he wound up as professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Pennsylvania.
Cute.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#155233 - 15/04/2003 16:23
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: JeffS]
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new poster
Registered: 09/02/2003
Posts: 9
Loc: Fairfield, CA
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I figured I'd make my first post on something that fascinates me: theoretical physics.
It seems to me that this just plays on probability. It is probable that somewhere, there happens to be another earth with events that played out EXACTLY how they did here. So if given that there are an infinate amout of planets (according to them) then, yeah, we have clones out there somewhere.
Which begs the question, could you ever meet your clone? If you got the idea to go get him, wouldn't he get the exact same idea and come to our world the second you left for his? :P
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A superhero appears from the shadows...could this be Batman, or just another fat kid with a cape?
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#155234 - 15/04/2003 16:36
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: Soulseeker]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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Which begs the question, could you ever meet your clone?
Well if there is an infinite number of identical worlds with an infinite number of identical clones woudn't the chance of you meeting yourself be 100%? Of course the two coppies of you that meet might be two of the clones from other worlds not you.
Oy, I am getting a headache
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#155235 - 15/04/2003 16:44
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: mcomb]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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Ok, so then how do any of us know that the other people we are speaking to (here, and in the world in general) aren't just clones themselves. For that matter, how do I know I'm not a clone? Eeesh.
I guess that really blurs the definition of "clone," really. How does one define which one of the "clones" is actually the original if they all were created at the same time?
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Donato MkII/080000565 MkIIa/010101253 ricin.us
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#155236 - 15/04/2003 16:47
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: ricin]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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Ok, so then how do any of us know that the other people we are speaking to (here, and in the world in general) aren't just clones themselves.
[weird al yankovic moment]I think I'm a clone now, there is always two of me just a hanging around...[/weird al yankovic moment]
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#155237 - 15/04/2003 16:49
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: mcomb]
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journeyman
Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 56
Loc: Las Vegas
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Well if there is an infinite number of identical worlds with an infinite number of identical clones woudn't the chance of you meeting yourself be 100%? Of course the two coppies of you that meet might be two of the clones from other worlds not you.
Yes, there would have to be an infinite number of worlds where you have met yourself. Even where you have had your own exclusive Empeg meet for just copies of yourself. But those selves don't think it's a big deal; because they have a frog-level view.
The concept of infinity sure is a hoot.
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#155238 - 15/04/2003 17:33
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: mcomb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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And every pair of genes is a hand-me-down
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Matt
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#155239 - 15/04/2003 23:53
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: mcomb]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Well if there is an infinite number of identical worlds with an infinite number of identical clones woudn't the chance of you meeting yourself be 100%?
What if there are an infinite number of unidentical worlds with an infinite number of unidentical non-clones?
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#155240 - 16/04/2003 00:44
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: ]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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What if there are an infinite number of unidentical worlds with an infinite number of unidentical non-clones?
Then the answer is 42 ;-)
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#155241 - 16/04/2003 11:55
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: canuckInOR]
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member
Registered: 25/10/1999
Posts: 149
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I always find myself reminded of these theories when I manage to avoid something bad, like getting hit by a car(arbitrary example). There must be a clone (actually an infinite number of clones, because there will an infinite number of crossroads ahead and we will need one cloneworld for each) somewhere, who has led the exact same life up to now and right now he didn't have as much luck as I. (simplifying here? there probably would be a infinite number of ways to get hit by the car plus the infinite different, random ways the atoms in my body consists off decide to jump around plus the infinite other crossroads that take place somewhere else in our infinite universe)
He's an exact copy, so he has the same genes, experiences and thus the same feelings. It makes no difference whether I or I get hit by the car, because either me or me will be in pain. So as a consequence everything gets meaningless, every single effort to make my life better and comfort my existence is futile.
I am not sure wheter this thought is comforting or not... any flaws in my logic?
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Thomas
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#155242 - 16/04/2003 12:03
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: 753]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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any flaws in my logic? I believe I see one: either me or me will be in pain If there is a clone of you out there (and actually, if we grant all of the theories here and assume infinite space, then I believe it logically follows that there would be an infinite number of clones) , it is still not you or you in pain. You are not your clone, by virtue of the fact that your consciousness is different from his. Even if he has the same genetic makeup, memories and ideas, you’d still be unique in that only you possess your consciousness. So if he gets hit by a car, it is he that is in pain, not you, even though he is your clone.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#155243 - 16/04/2003 12:05
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Exactly. It's not as if there's a quantum link between the two of you. If there was, then it wouldn't be possible for there to be differences.
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Bitt Faulk
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#155244 - 16/04/2003 12:07
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: 753]
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journeyman
Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 56
Loc: Las Vegas
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I am not sure wheter this thought is comforting or not... any flaws in my logic?
No, your logic is flawless. BTW, You should empty your bank account and send me all the money. Because an infinite number of "you" MUST be doing it.
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#155245 - 16/04/2003 12:53
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: JeffS]
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member
Registered: 25/10/1999
Posts: 149
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You are not your clone, by virtue of the fact that your consciousness is different from his.
Agreed. It still would be somewhat irritating tough, to know someone in pain/pieces, who - until a second ago - was just like me. Mainly because from a third point of view it doesn't matter who of us two bites the dust, a second ago we were completely interchangeable and both wouldn't have noticed had we switched our places.
So the corrected statement would be: Every single effort made by my clones and/or me to try and make our lives take a turn for the better or worse is futile.
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Thomas
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#155246 - 16/04/2003 13:03
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: 753]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Damn, you made me think of a good idea. If someone could unite their inifinite number of clones, and give each clone's resources to one clone, then that clone would be the super-clone. But of course, in the infinity of clones, there will be an army of evil clones who will inevitably want to counter-act this for who knows what reason.
But on second thought, in the inifinity of clones, there will already be an infinite number of super-clones.
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#155247 - 16/04/2003 13:18
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: davekirk]
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member
Registered: 25/10/1999
Posts: 149
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Because an infinite number of "you" MUST be doing it.
Hmm... leads to an interesting point. Do we get a problem with the concept of free will here? Actually this clone doesn't want to empty his bank account.  What if none of all the clones wants to? Is it infinity itself that guarantees, that there will be an infinite number of clones that will want to empty their bank accounts? If it is impossible that no clones choose to empty their bank accounts, does that take away the possibility to take life in our own hands and force a destiny upon us?
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Thomas
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#155248 - 16/04/2003 13:35
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: 753]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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The premise here is that given and infinite amount of time and space, every possible outcome must occur. I suppose there is an element of determinism here, but when it comes down to you personally, at least under this theory your fate is not determined by what your clones do or do not do. If you choose A then presumably there are other clones who have chosen both A and B, as would be the same as if you had chosen B.
Also keep in mind that your clones really have nothing to do with you. The fact that you decided not to eat a sandwich and your clone did would have the same meaning as if you decided not to eat a sandwich and your twin brother (if you had one) did.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#155249 - 16/04/2003 13:41
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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The premise here is that given and infinite amount of time and space, every possible outcome must occur. Yeah, I don't see why that article is being cited as a new idea. And anyway, modern science isn't even sure our universe is infinite. It begins with a theoretical premise that's not currently (if ever) testable.
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#155250 - 16/04/2003 13:54
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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It begins with a theoretical premise that's not currently (if ever) testable. Yes, and the infinite universe part of the premise isn't the only issue I take with this theory (actually the infinite universe theory is an interesting thought in and of itself: I have as much difficulty imagining a finite universe as I do an infinite one). Sill, I figured we'd had enough debates along these lines recently and decided it'd be more fun just to "roll with it."
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#155252 - 16/04/2003 15:00
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Still, I figured we'd had enough debates along these lines recently and decided it'd be more fun just to "roll with it." I'm glad to hear it. If this sort of untestable "science" had turned up in a certain other thread, it would have put a big hole in my (and, frankly, Karl Popper's) exposition of science as being all about demonstrability and falsifiability...
I hadn't heard the result mentioned in the article, that microwave anisotropy statistics rule out a closed spherical universe -- I thought this was still a very contested issue. And there's a big step between ruling out closed spherical, and ruling in infinite. But anyone whose head isn't messed-up enough by this yet should go and read Borges' The Library Of Babel, which was written (I think) during an earlier period when science suspected the universe of being infinite.
Peter
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#155253 - 16/04/2003 15:07
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I hadn't heard the result mentioned in the article, that microwave anisotropy statistics rule out a closed spherical universe My limited understanding was that the microwave stats ruled out a closed universe of any topology. But I could be wrong.
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Bitt Faulk
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#155254 - 16/04/2003 15:21
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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My limited understanding was that the microwave stats ruled out a closed universe of any topology. But I could be wrong. Have you got a reference? I'm annoyed to have completely missed a result of this import...
Peter
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#155255 - 16/04/2003 15:25
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: JeffS]
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new poster
Registered: 09/02/2003
Posts: 9
Loc: Fairfield, CA
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I don't remember where the theory was from, but I remember my junior year in high school someone proposed a theory that the universe was finite, but looked infinite because it exists in the shape of a mobius strip. I know that made my head hurt at the time.
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A superhero appears from the shadows...could this be Batman, or just another fat kid with a cape?
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#155256 - 16/04/2003 15:49
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: Soulseeker]
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addict
Registered: 05/06/2002
Posts: 497
Loc: Hartsville, South Carolina for...
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Michael West
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#155257 - 16/04/2003 15:51
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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it would have put a big hole in my (and, frankly, Karl Popper's) exposition of science as being all about demonstrability and falsifiability... I disagree, I think it's a great example. Here is a pure theory, it's got ideas that are mostly untestable. Astrophysics and particle physics are at the bleeding edge of our learning, and have many facets which are untestable. We're working toward ways of testing many of these things, but until we do, it's still theoretical if it hasn't been tested. We've never sent a probe to the edge of a black hole and observed what it's like, we can only theorize that a black hole exists because of the x-ray radiation emitted near its event horizon. We can observe with a spectrometer that the universe is expanding, but can only guess as to why or when the expansion started.
It's very important to understand that some theories are more theoretical than others, and this is the root of what science is about. A discussion like this is a great example. You can't put finite vs. infinite universe theories into the same boat as things that are testable like elementary biology. They're both science, and they both can be proven wrong and thrown out if we find evidence which contradicts the theory, it's just that one of them's got a lot more evidence backing it up than the other.
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#155258 - 16/04/2003 21:12
Re: Parallel Universes
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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My limited understanding was that the microwave stats ruled out a closed universe of any topology. But I could be wrong. Have you got a reference? I'm annoyed to have completely missed a result of this import... Okay, I'm obviously not an astrophysicist, and my knowledge of this stuff is far from expansive, so I may be (read: ``probably am'') misinterpreting this, but, from http://www.discover.com/mar_01/featdark.html: Recent studies of microwave background radiation had hinted that the universe is flat. But last spring, data from balloon-borne instruments lofted over Texas and Antarctica supplied convincing evidence. Minute fluctuations in the radiation were the expected size. The most precise measurements available revealed that the shape of the universe is flat; it has the critical density and omega equals one. My understanding is that the universe would have to be closed for it to be finite. Then again, my understanding is that would imply a spheroid universe, yet I've also heard theories of a toroidal or moebius-like universe. I don't know how to rectify all that information. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that flat is flat. But I could be wrong.
Also check out the press release for the balloon experiment mentioned, MAXIMA. Apparently there was another one called BOOMERANG, too.
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Bitt Faulk
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