#16054 - 29/08/2000 22:37
FTP and more
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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Well, I got ftp and telnet up and running on my empeg today and now I would like to clean up the way they run. Ideally, upon bootup empeg runs player software. If, quit is selected from the empeg menu (tip on adding quit to menu in another thread) the player quits, the drives are remounted read/write and inetd is started. Now, if a button is pushed on the unit, inetd is killed, the drives are remounted as read only and the player starts again. This way a serial connection is never really needed and the player can be used for ftp, etc at any time with just an ethernet drop. So, this brings up a few questions...
1. Is it possible to make the quit menu item quit player and launch another program?
2. Is it possible to trigger a program based on a keypress when player is not running?
I don't really care about having inetd and friends running while the player is running (increases memory usage, etc), but another way of approaching this might be to leave inetd running and stop the player/remount the drives when a connection occurs (to a certain service or on a certain port).
Any suggestion?
-Mike
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#16055 - 30/08/2000 12:23
Re: FTP and more
[Re: mcomb]
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journeyman
Registered: 21/08/2000
Posts: 62
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I'm going to say that what you want is possible, but would require a bit of system hacking.
Basically what you'd need to do is replace the init that the system currently runs (which just starts the player software I guess) with something that would do something along these lines:
while(true) {
start player
start inetd &
start something to watch the front buttons
}
Since you'd be starting the player software and waiting for it to exit, it would behave just like "normal." When you exit, inetd starts in the background and control waits for your little "button-press" thingie. If you press a button, the "button-press" thingie kills inetd (and any other processes you want) and exits, which would loop back around to the top, starting the player again.
You could probably do all this with a shell script, or be fancy and write a little perl script.
Of course, if the built-in "init" does more stuff, then you'd want to make sure you replicate that functionality as well.
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#16056 - 30/08/2000 23:29
Re: FTP and more
[Re: dglidden]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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Sounds reasonable, and I am comfortable enough with beating up init to get it to do that. I believe the built in init just calls the player, may be able to call empeg's init from the hacked init. Anybody have any ideas on how to watch for a button press?
-Mike
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#16057 - 31/08/2000 05:37
Re: FTP and more
[Re: mcomb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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od -Ax -txC -v -w4 /dev/empeg_ir
...will dump out the button/ir presses (and releases where appropriate) as text. You could grep this and certain keycodes if you wanted.
Hugo
(king of nasty hacks ;) )
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#16058 - 31/08/2000 07:31
Re: FTP and more
[Re: altman]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hugo, as the ftp server and http server installation gets closer for idiots ( or people beeing out of linux business very long like me ), some things get to my mind:
-it looks like soon there will be a *nearly fool proof* guide to installing ftp & http server, thanks to those great guys posting the how-to's here ...
Problem is: even if the process is fool proof, its still some work to do, and with every new install of a new version, all is lost, and must be done again ...
( or am i wrong ?!? )
So there is that old nasty Question again:
Will empeg put this stuff configured-to-run in the dev image sometime ??
I think the technical reasons ( Less memory & cpu time when additional stuff is running, more chance to crash -> unacceptable ) are non-existing if you would handle it this way:
Having a "Quit to Net services" Menu entry, that quits the player and starts telnetd, ftpd, httpd, samba, whatever, and whenever a button is pressed, quitting that stuff and loading the player again ...
( and of course offering developers to add customized menu entries like "tetris", "nude girls slide show", "lottery numbers generator", "bullshit" and so on ? :-) )
(or similar, you got the point, not working at the same time, but having two modes )
So if the above is possible, would it be possible to include this stuff in the next dev image ( please please yes, beg, beg, beg, loosing dignity completely )
Please let me/us know how you think about that.
Of course if it is again a legal problem, we have no chance, but, HEY its a developer image, the standard player will be fine with the normal image, users have to do/understand quite some things to use the services, Mr. St*pid*ss will just buy the player and use it, no prob for the RIAA ...
Nils, desperately trying to be lazy and to still get everything he wants, but at least beeing honest :-)
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#16059 - 31/08/2000 09:44
Why they won't give us FTP by default.
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Will empeg put this stuff configured-to-run in the dev image sometime?
I gotta tell ya, Nils... I'm nervous about there even being a published "idiot's guide to FTP" for the Empeg, let alone a pre-built FTP server made easily available at their web site.
I mean, Hugo and Mac have been very nice to give the BBS'ers hints where necessary. But to me, even that is dangerous. What if the RIAA decided to sue them? Even without them supplying the software, the RIAA could say that they were helping the end-users to develop a music player capable of piracy. Even if Hugo didn't give us any hints... even if we came up with an "idiot's guide" on our own, there is the possibility that the Empeg could be legally considered a device capable of copying.
You see, the problem isn't really the idea of piracy so much, it's whether or not the Empeg can be classified as a digital music copier or a digital music player under the AHRA. Right now, the Empeg doesn't yet fall under the category of copier. Therefore, according to the text of the AHRA, Empeg doesn't have to pay a tax to the RIAA for every player sold. So if the Empeg were proved to be a copying device, the RIAA would see the Empeg as skirting around their little AHRA tax and could sue them for lost revenues plus damages.
Think about this for a minute... Don't you think that, at Empeg, they've already got a pre-built, easy-to-install image that includes PPP and FTP? Of course they do, they need it to do their development work and testing. They just can't give it to us because that would cross the line between music player and music copier. And if it's a music copier, that's when they have to get in bed with the RIAA and start paying the AHRA tax, and then it just gets too complicated.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#16060 - 31/08/2000 13:53
Re: Why they won't give us FTP by default.
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 22/03/2000
Posts: 217
Loc: West Midlands, England
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In reply to:
I mean, Hugo and Mac have been very nice to give the BBS'ers hints where necessary. But to me, even that is dangerous. What if the RIAA decided to sue them?
Funnily enough, I wrote the following piece as a reply to Doug Linder's comments on Empeg (company) not allowing the Empeg (player) to act as a removeable storage device. I forgot to post it then, but it may be apropos now:
-----------------
Whilst I don't want to get involved in the argument over whether
Empeg did the right or wrong thing (just for the record though, I
think they were right), the concept in general is worthy of some
discussion (as long as it's not classed as off-topic).
Even though Empeg are protecting their backsides as best they can, I
am becoming more and more worried about the increasingly litigious
RIAA and their associates in other countries.
The recent Napster case is a good example of how rules, morals and
just plain logic is bent out of all recognition in order that the
recording industry en masse maintain the status quo.
By way of example I will use an analogy. Motorways were built so that
people could get quickly from point A to point B (we'll excuse the
case of the M25, which was built so that people would have somewhere
to park their car). If I speed on the motorway and I am caught, I get
into trouble. If I cause loss of life on the motorway by speeding,
I'm in deep trouble. At no point is the Highways Agency ever taken to
court for providing the means for me to speed/kill.
Logic dictates that Napster per se are not breaking the law - it's
their users who are. Of course going after the blue whale is a damn
sight easier and more productive than fishing for plankton. I believe
the argument is that Napster was built with illegal copying in mind,
but I can't see how this is relevant (if it was, you wouldn't be able
to buy VCRs, cassette recorders, mini-disc recorders etc. etc.).
The worrying aspect of this logic-bending (and the point of this
whole piece) is that I suspect whether or not Empeg coded the
facility to copy files off the unit or left it to third party
developers will matter not a jot. The fact that the unit itself
posesses the functionality to allow copying of files from itself is
the problem. Despite Empeg's best efforts, I wouldn't be surprised if
they found themselves in court as organisations like the RIAA twist
reality even more.
-----------------
In reply to:
And if it's a music copier, that's when they have to get in bed with the RIAA and start paying the AHRA tax...
Or just stop selling the player in the USA 
Nick.
--
18Gb blue - s/n 080000299 (original queue position 8724)
_________________________
--
18GB red s/n 080000299
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#16061 - 31/08/2000 15:51
Re: Why they won't give us FTP by default.
[Re: debauch]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Interesting comments, Debauch. A couple of points:
I believe the argument is that Napster was built with illegal copying in mind, but I can't see how this is relevant (if it was, you wouldn't be able to buy VCRs, cassette recorders, mini-disc recorders etc. etc.).
Actually, I think there is a more subtle issue here. The VCR's, casetter recorders, mini-disc recorders, and audio CD copiers all pay a tax to the RIAA and MPAA. This was part of the AHRA (the "at home recording act"). I believe that what gets the RIAA so mad isn't the piracy so much as it's the fact that things like Napster allow copying without the payment of that tax. Saying "there's no difference between Napster and a minidisc recorder" is wrong in the eyes of the RIAA because the minidisc generates revenue for them, whereas Napster does not. Many people who argue this issue seem to be concerned about the morality of piracy, when it's really just about a sales tax.
I suspect whether or not Empeg coded the facility to copy files off the unit or left it to third party developers will matter not a jot. The fact that the unit itself posesses the functionality to allow copying of files from itself is the problem.
Possibly. But for right now, Diamond won that battle already and Empeg doesn't need to worry about it. I don't know if that hill's going to remain occupied forever, but for now that's where the line is actually drawn. As long as the device is just a player as shipped, Empeg is OK. For now...
___________
Tony Fabris
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#16062 - 01/09/2000 00:59
Re: FTP and more
[Re: Nils]
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member
Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 140
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
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Problem is: even if the process is fool proof, its still some work to do, and with every new install of a new version, all is lost, and must be done again ...
( or am i wrong ?!? )
Depending how you organize things. You can easily put all the stuff that is extra to the normal developer image into specific directory under /drive0 and then just have a script to symlink those back after upgrade.
Here's the script I use to restore my custom things back after upgrade:
#
# This script restores default settings after root partition
# has been cloned with emplode.
#
#!/bin/sh
mount -n -o remount,rw /
mkdir /scratch
/bin/mount -n -o rw,sync,errors=continue /dev/hda2 /scratch
mv /sbin/init /sbin/init.orig
cp /drive0/empeg/E_BootLoader/exe/init /sbin/init
cp /drive0/empeg/E_BootLoader/exe/init.config /
mv /usr /usr.orig
ln -s /drive0/kim/usr /usr
mv /var /var.orig
ln -s /scratch/var /var
mv /tmp /tmp.orig
ln -s /scratch/tmp /tmp
mv /etc /etc.orig
ln -s /scratch/etc /etc
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libnss_compat.so.2 /lib/libnss_compat.so.2
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libnss_db.so.2 /lib/libnss_db.so.2
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libnss_dns.so.2 /lib/libnss_dns.so.2
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libnss_files.so.2 /lib/libnss_files.so.2
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libnss_hesiod.so.2 /lib/libnss_hesiod.so.2
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libnss_nisplus.so.2 /lib/libnss_nisplus.so.2
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libnss_nis.so.2 /lib/libnss_nis.so.2
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libresolv-2.1.so /lib/libresolv.so.2
ln -s /drive0/kim/lib/libstdc++-3-libc6.1-2-2.10.0.so /lib/libstdc++-libc6.1-2.s
o.3
mount -n -o remount,ro /
And it really doesn't take more than one minute to get custom things back after upgrade.
Kim
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#16063 - 01/09/2000 05:59
Re: FTP and more
[Re: kim]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Ahrghh !
Of course kim, thats it, i just forgot about drive0 :-)
Thanx for the hint.
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#16064 - 01/09/2000 06:11
Re: Why they won't give us FTP by default.
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hi !
Tony, where does that lead us, empeg or the world ??
You know that this would just be the start, to creep in front of such a small powerless organisation as the riaa, that strictly *just* has anything to say in the US ?!?
I mean, there has to be a border, where you stand and defend, otherwise it will just get worse and worse and at some time, for every baby born you have to give riaa money, because it will develop into an adult, just wanting to copy music ?!?!
That is paranoid, mad and it has *no* dignity at all to not even discuss things, but to creep before even dare to ask.
On the other side, empeg is not founded to save humans freedom, but to simply earn money ( and to make people's hobby their job, which is ideal, i try hard to do the same).
Tho if someone from empeg ltd tells me:
"We are going to creep in any way they want us to, whenever they want us to."
I can understand & accept this, i would do the same if it was my job, career and money.
But as a user, i ask the maximum of personal freedom and possibilities from a pruduct.
So don't let us start to creep in advance too, please ...
No matter how nice all empeg people are, they are in it for the money, and we are in it for the optimal product.
That fun and friendship and bidirectional understanding is involved is very nice, and that is what puts empeg ahead of all companies i ever bought a product from, but still it is a side effect.
Honestly i don't know what i wanted to write here at all, but basically i wanted to express my disgust of obying to a strange organization in any aspect without drawing a line of defense somewhere, because I am not here for the money, and i am not going to be sued for this, and the guys from empeg are old enough to define where they draw their line of cooperation between empeg and us AND between empeg and the RIAA and their affiliates.
Nils
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#16065 - 01/09/2000 10:06
Re: Why they won't give us FTP by default.
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Nils, I agree with your frustration and disgust at the position we've been put in by the RIAA.
But you have to understand that Empeg is in business to make money. And to do that, they have to sell their products worldwide. And to do that, they have to comply with the laws of any country in which their product is sold (in this case, the USA and the AHRA). So we won't be seeing Empeg add an FTP server to the developer image any time soon.
On the bright side, the AHRA does give the consumer a reasonable level of protection. The RIAA is not all-powerful. Much of their current frustration is because they signed away their soul when the AHRA was passed. They're getting revenues from a tax which essentially legalizes limited piracy. Now they're pissed off because the same bill which granted them that revenue also protects the whole MP3 movement. They stamp their feet and clench their fists and say "no, ripping MP3s is not protected by the AHRA!" but they don't have any way to back it up yet.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#16066 - 02/09/2000 06:12
Re: Why they won't give us FTP by default.
[Re: Nils]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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I think you will liks [url=http://www.sulaco.org/mp3/download/riaa.gif]this poster[url].  Some random thoughts about RIAA, MPAA, their twisting the law and what to do: One would expect entertainmet electronics industry to collectively stand against RIAA monopolistic behaviour in court. The problem is, some of them (like Sony, Phillips) are stradling the fence, having interest in both selling you their cool (MP3 or otherwise) gadgets and charging you whenever you buy a CD, listen to it, copy it for car use, lend it, drink a glass of water or fart. Perhaps somebody in business should anyway try and organize an industry association promoting 'fair use' interpretation of copyright laws, in court if neccessary. If RIAA sees enough money on opponet side, thay will be softer... Another example is MPAA and its delibereate missleading the courts and media (an euphemism for lying) about purpose of DVD reginal coding. Sometimes they simply say it is there to prevent piracy, and I have seen supposedly technically savy media buy it, however absurd it is. Their main line is that enebles them staged release of new titles to various markets. Their is a grain of truth in that, but then why are re-releases of classics or titles that get simultneous global release also region-coded? Simply: it is a device to enable them price fixing in spite of global Internet commerce: DVD's are much more expensive in Europe than in USA; in India they are cheapest. Of course, this practice is explicitly forbidden by the rules of WTO, but USA observe them only when convenient. Some goverment don't want to be bullied like that: in Switzerland or New Zealand, for example, it is illegal to sell region-coded DVD players. What does MPAA do about that? Nothing; they know who is right here, and just hope the practice wil not spread. (This reminds me: I'll have a drink over the weekend with an old friend of mine, a newly elected MP. Time for some legislatine initiative  ) Cheers! P.S. I am tired of fixing my typos. Please bear with me (and them). What was that about dyslexics? Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Zagreb, Croatia Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#16067 - 02/09/2000 10:19
Re: Why they won't give us FTP by default.
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, I like that poster. I have it printed and up on my wall at work. One would expect entertainmet electronics industry to collectively stand against RIAA monopolistic behaviour in court. The problem is, some of them (like Sony, Phillips) are stradling the fence...Some of them? How about all of them? Every single large electronics company is dependent upon support from the RIAA and can't oppose them. They sell products which are subject to the AHRA tax, and/or which incorporate the SCMS scheme. You won't see any big hifi companies going up against the RIAA. And the little mom-and-pop organizations don't have enough money to survive a legal battle with the RIAA. Diamond was good about defending the Rio, and they did win a small battle for us. But that was only a small line drawn in a much bigger piece of sand. If RIAA sees enough money on opponet side, thay will be softer...Somehow I don't see that happening. They'd just fight harder. They have a lot of money and power behind them right now. Simply: it is a device to enable them price fixing in spite of global Internet commerce.Wow, I'd never heard that argument in relation to region coding. But it makes perfect sense. It makes me want to go apply the region-removal hack to my DVD player now. ___________
Tony Fabris
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