#162821 - 27/05/2003 08:59
Speeding
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Over on Fark, they recently posted a story that claimed that `' 91% of drivers routinely speed, eat or read while driving''. While I'll admit that reading while drving is probably an exceptionally bad idea, and eating somewhat so, it occurs to me (again) that the speed limits in the US are much too low.
As a case in point, I take an interstate-labeled beltline to work. The posted speed limit is 60MPH. I don't believe that I've ever seen anyone drive 60MPH on this road. In fact, this morning, I got onto the beltline behind a city cop, and, despite the fact that I was driving about 70MPH, he quickly left me behind, and he was not on his way to a crime scene. I usually drive between 75 and 80 MPH on that road and am probably on the high side of the average speed. It doesn't seem to have any more accidents than any other stretch of road.
I suppose that city roads (that is, not highways) are more sanely marked, even if they are usually about 5 MPH too slow, IMO. (Then again, have you ever actually driven 25MPH on a normally sized neighborhood road? It feels like you could get outside and push the car faster.) But highways are just insane. North Carolina is all about collecting revenue via traffic violations -- even moreso in recent months, it seems -- but I'd be much happier paying higher taxes than worrying about whether driving the same reasonable speed as everyone else on the road is going to garner me a ticket, especially when it's not inconceivable that I could lose my license for it, since it's often, if not usually, 15MPH over the limit.
I suppose I'd have more respect for it if cops ever drove the limit, but every time I see them, they're either going the same 10-15MPH over the limit, just like everyone else, or are driving 5MPH less than the limit just to freak everyone out (I assume -- I can't see any other reason they'd be doing that).
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Bitt Faulk
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#162822 - 27/05/2003 09:17
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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The posted speed limit is 60MPH That IS a very slow posting for an intersate. All of the intersates in NM (well, there are only 3 of them) have a posted limit of 75mph. And all state highways are 65mph. These speeds are a 20mph increase from about 10 or so years back.
Weren't highway speeds generally higher a long time ago? I seem to remember my parents telling me that the general highway speed of 55 was a speed reduction set back during fuel crisis times. And that the speeds were actually much faster in the past even when cars were not as safe at high speeds as they are today. But I have no idea if that is true or if I just made that up somewhere along the line.
- trs
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- trs
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#162823 - 27/05/2003 09:18
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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I suppose I'd have more respect for it if cops ever drove the limit, but every time I see them, they're either going the same 10-15MPH over the limit, just like everyone else, or are driving 5MPH less than the limit just to freak everyone out (I assume -- I can't see any other reason they'd be doing that).
This is what really gets me. I got a ticket a few weeks ago, and after driving away at 54mph (I95 around Boston still has a 55mph limit) the cop flew past me at about the speed that I had been doing before getting stopped.
The most dangerous driving that I've ever seen was a NY state trooper. He pulled a U-turn on an interstate, turning into the left lane about 100yds in front of us. My wife had to stamp on the brakes. Of course, he didn't have any lights on, or indicate any intention. My wife decided that she didn't want to be anywhere near this lunatic so changed lanes into the right lane and slowed down. Unfortunately this didn't work as the cop then changed lanes into the middle lane (again no signal) but didn't do the usual accelerate to 100mph thing. So he's about 30 yds ahead of us in the middle lane doing about the same speed as we are. A half mile down the road he suddenly, without warning or indication, swerves across our lane whilst braking hard, and then pulls a U-turn and drives the wrong way up a ramp.
Shi t like that really pisses me off. If I had done either of hose manovoeurs then I'd have been given a costly ticket. Both of them would have probably lost my driving priviledges. But cops routinely get away with them.
But I'm ranting. Back on topic;
Most tickets in the US are written under civil law, not criminal. Anyone can bring a civil case in a court. I wonder whether it would be possible to motivate enough people online to start bringing speeding troopers to justice too? I wonder if this would translate to an opinion change amongst state troopers and lead to a raising of speed limits to sensible speeds?
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#162824 - 27/05/2003 09:22
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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I suppose I'd have more respect for it if cops ever drove the limit
In the UK, the motorway police always drive at the speed limit (except when they're answering a call, obviously).
This is really friggin' irritating, because nobody wants to speed past them; meaning that traffic that was flowing smoothly at 85-90mph suddenly slows down to 72mph to eek past the police car so that they can speed up again.
Note: for reference -- the speed limit on a motorway is 70mph; average speeds on the M11 (London-Cambridge) seem to be about 85mph; average speeds on the M4 (London-Wales) seem to be about 95mph.
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-- roger
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#162825 - 27/05/2003 09:34
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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I agree that a lot of the interstates are marked at too low a speed. I live in Columbus, OH and I-70 is one of the straightest, flattest highways around. It's speed limit could be raised to 70 or 75 safely, but currently it is set at 65 for cars and 55 for trucks. The state decided that the money it got from fining truckers was worth losing fedral highway funding (the fed tried to push Ohio to raise the truck speed limit to 65). That's just evil.
On the other hand, have you ever driven I-79 through West Virginia? It's speed limit is 70, and I think that it is too fast for portions of the highway. It is very windy with some steep inclines, and I've seen some near accidents there.
Also, 25 for neighborhoods is very very reasonable. I know it seems slow, but that is pretty much the max speed you can be traveling and expect to stop if a child runs out from in front of a parked car. I live on a very wide street, and it seems like everybody does at least 35 down the road. They treat it like it's a drag strip, and there are many children that I fear one day will be hit by a car. I've had my share of balls roll out in front of my car, and I could stop, because usually I drive UNDER the speed limit of 25 on my street. I doubt some of the riceboy cars that race up and down the road could do the same.
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#162826 - 27/05/2003 10:17
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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I agree entirely. It is not a mistake, however. It is based upon the business case of the revenue that speed enforcement generates. Some police chiefs will actually admit this.
The newest fad is to install automatic semaphore (traffic light) monitoring equipment similar to photo radar. The idea is that vehicles running reds will be photographed and sent a ticket. One may argue that red light running is a bad idea, and I agree, but most of the tickets issued are in the first few tenths of a second after the yellow->red change. It's pure business case. As a matter of fact, the monitoring equipment is given to jurisdictions *free* from the manufacturer -- who gets a share of the ticket proceeds.
It's business. It has nothing to do with safety. Safety is just the cover story. Just a small scale version of the WMD/Iraq manipulation that you're fond of discussing.
If there was a sincere interest in red light saftey, they would just put a 1.5-2 sec delay from the red one way to the green the other. Some jurisdictions do exactly that.
Someone else in this thread mentioned that the speed limits used to be much higher. It seems to me that the speed limits are nowabout what they were in the 1960's (after a ridiculous 20 or so years at 55mph). However, car technology is vastly improved and an average consumer sedan can go 100mph safely all day long.
The one argument that supports lower speed limits is the horrendous congestion in most American cities. Too bad they haven't been spending that ticket money on improvements to the infrastructure...
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#162827 - 27/05/2003 10:20
Re: Speeding
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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If there was a sincere interest in red light saftey, they would just put a 1.5-2 sec delay from the red one way to the green the other. Some jurisdictions do exactly that. Not really, because the 1.5-2 seconds would effectively become part of the "green light." Human nature dictates that people are going to run the light as long as they're assured there's nobody coming the other way. If you made it 20 seconds between changes, people would run the red light for 18 or 19 seconds.
For the record, when I drive in certain parts of Philadelphia, I slow down at every GREEN light.
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#162828 - 27/05/2003 10:26
Re: Speeding
[Re: trs24]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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The posted speed limit is 60MPH
That IS a very slow posting for an intersate That depends on where you live. In the DC Metro area, all the interstates are 55mph. It isn't until you get about 30 miles south of the beltway that it becomes 65, which is more acceptable.
I agree completely with your statements, Bitt. I also have one question for you, since you're in the NC area: have you ever been to Williamsburg? Driving in that area for the last 3 years has very nearly killed my love of driving. I have yet to find an area that has worse speed limits, traffic patterns, and traffic lights than Williamsburg, VA.
The main road in town is Richmond Rd. At one point it is a road with 2 lanes each way and a turning lane in the middle. There are about 3-4 lights in this mile of road, and about 7 entrances to store parking lots on each side of the road. This road is 25mph. AHH! I just can't stand it! This is only made worse by the fact that there is so little for cops to do in this town full of tourists and old people, that they WILL pull you over for doing 34 in a 25 (I have). In fact, they always have two cars present when this happens.
Add to all this the fact that there are exactly 1.5 intersections in the entire town where you can turn left on green (legal in VA if no left-hand turn red arrow is present), and you can understand how I regularly scream at some non-existant traffic regulator in the sky.
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Matt
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#162829 - 27/05/2003 10:56
Re: Speeding
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I have been to Williamsburg, but, honestly, I don't think I've ever driven there.
However, many touristy and just plain small towns do the same thing. One of their big forms of revenue seems to be ticketing the out-of-towners, probably because they know that it's easier for the tourist to just send the fine back than to drive back in a month to contest it.
My basic point is not so much that 60MPH is too slow everywhere. Obviously, there are many factors that go into what the correct speed limit in a given area should be. Nor is it really an issue of revenue-based ticketing, although that's certainly an important concern. The issue, in my mind, is that everyone goes way faster than the speed limit in certain sections. In my experience, except for some places that are obviously speed traps, everyone, including the cops, realize that the speed limit is too slow, so few tickets occur. But if that's the case, why are the limits still so slow? I know for a fact that state legislators drive these roads regularly. The DOT administrators do, too, as that's the building I'm driving to. All those signs do is serve to make drivers nervous.
Sure, some of the issue with raising the limit, some people will say, is that people will continue to drive faster than that. I've not faound that that's really the case. I've found that people find the speed they think should be driven on the road and drive that, with little regard to the posted sign, even to the point that, on rare occasion, the traffic on the road will be going slower than the limit, and not due to overcrowding, but just because that's the innate speed of the road.
And, to defend myself about the 25MPH thing, in Raleigh, there are some roads that were probably historically residential, but they're now thoroughfares, even though they may still be two-lane roads, and they're still 25MPH. I'm not talking about backroads; I'm taking about non-shortcut roads people use to get places every day.
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Bitt Faulk
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#162830 - 27/05/2003 11:15
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I agree somewhat, but I think a lot depends on the area.
Again, in Williamsburg, area drivers are unbelievably slow. I can honestly say that I drive in the fastest 5% of all citizens in the area. I also don't feel that I drive unsafely. I'm not entirely certain why people drive so slowly here. One reason is that they are mostly retired people in their 80's (my entire neighborhood is filled with retired people). The other is that the rest of the people here are tourists who have no clue where they are, so they drive extra slow.
Both of these are possible, but I think it's mostly a different mindset. I've observed that about 75% of all the people in Williamsburg go exactly the speed limit, about 15% go 5pmh over, another 5% go 10mph over, and I'm in that last 5% 
OTOH, in northern VA, where I love to drive, about 90% of the people fall into that top 25%, edging towards the faster end. I love driving here.
I don't mind the speed limit as long as people observe MY speed limit. This goes back to that whole discussion on slower traffic keeping to the left, which I don't want to get back into again. All I can say is, I generally "urge" people to get over, and I continue to go my own speed, while looking out for cops much in the same way Tony does
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Matt
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#162831 - 27/05/2003 11:23
Re: Speeding
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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I have no problem with red light cameras except for the fact that in the UK (at least) they seemed to be a precursor to the dreaded speed camera.
Too many people run red lights around Boston. It happens all the time. The fact is that there is a yellow light that tells you that the light is about to turn red, and (assuming that it is timed correctly) if you miss that light then either you were speeding excessively or you were deliberately trying to squeeze through when you shouldn't have.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
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#162833 - 27/05/2003 11:58
Re: Speeding
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Too many people run red lights around Boston. It happens all the time. The fact is that there is a yellow light that tells you that the light is about to turn red, and (assuming that it is timed correctly) if you miss that light then either you were speeding excessively or you were deliberately trying to squeeze through when you shouldn't have. My problem with the "red light cameras" isn't the whole running-reds thing.
I read something in a car magazine about a year ago which gave some interesting and scary information. Now, I don' t have any support for this information other than the article I read, so take it with a grain of salt. But what I heard was that large cities have been deliberately lengthening the signal cycles (longer time intervals that a given light stays green while all the opposing lights stay red) in the interest of better overall traffic flow. This is, I believe, what's been causing people to try to "push" the reds at either end and why some cities are complaining about the running-reds epidemic and needing to install red-runner cameras. Sounds like they need a refresher course in TQM and should be trying to look for the root cause of the problem.
I also read that some cities were deliberately shortening the length of the yellows, even though statistics have shown you'll get fewer red-runners if you lengthen the yellows. That's just downright mean if you ask me.
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#162834 - 27/05/2003 11:58
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Roger, I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for Americanizing your units for us. Appropriate, considering the thread's subject was US speed limits.
He wasn't, we use MPH for speeds in the UK as well.
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#162835 - 27/05/2003 12:07
Re: Speeding
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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He wasn't, we use MPH for speeds in the UK as well. As well as in the US or as well as km/h?
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Bitt Faulk
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#162836 - 27/05/2003 12:31
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 18/08/2000
Posts: 992
Loc: Georgetown, TX USA
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In fact, this morning, I got onto the beltline behind a city cop, and, despite the fact that I was driving about 70MPH, he quickly left me behind, and he was not on his way to a crime scene.
I am noticing that 90% of all Austin PD I get behind don't use their turn signals, yet this is one of the main violations they will cite to pull people over to further investigate DUI, etc. Now I'm not against DUI patrols, but it irks me that they (or 90% of the rest of Austin) don't use their damn turn signals. I'm thinking of starting to take car numbers and times and reporting them. Hey my tax dollars right?
I did use one of those "How's My Driving" numbers on a delivery truck the other week. He thought he need not sit at the red light to turn right so skipped it by going through the dry cleaners lot on the corner. I was 5 cars ahead before he skipped the light. right behind him after with the 1-800 number begging me to call... I did. I felt good, if you're gonna feel like you're more important than any other car on the road, you better not have the "How's My Driving" sticker in view... 
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Dave Clark
Georgetown, Texas
MK2A 42Gb - AnoFace - Smoke Lens - Dead Tuner - Sirius Radio on AUX
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#162837 - 27/05/2003 12:39
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Okay, I'm going to take a moment to reply to the main subject/premise of this thread, which I'll paraphrase as "current US speed limits are, in general, unrealistically low".
What I'm about to say isn't a well-thought-out logical argument, I haven't put much energy into thinking about it yet, but I'll put it here in the interest of sparking discussion. And my opinion here will probably surprise some people here on the BBS.
My opinion, in summary, is: "I think the current US speed limits are, in general, right where they should be".
And this is coming from someone who routinely exceeds the speed limit and has to spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to avoid getting a speeding ticket.
Supporting arguments:
- Each time we increase the speed limits, people begin driving X mph faster than what's posted. If speed limits were 125, we'd all exceed those limits eventually.
- Most drivers on the road are mouth breathing knuckle-draggers, and honestly, I don't trust them to drive over 65-75 mph safely. I have very little faith in the intelligence and attentiveness of my fellow man.
- Recently, we did increase the speed limits. From a national limit of 55, it was increased to 65, and now it is even higher (75 or more) on some particularly wide/flat/straight interstates. I think that's enough for now. I think those are realistic limits for the general public.
- The current speed limits are a compromise, taking into account the fact that we know people exceed them.
- The faster we drive, the more alert we need to be. However the current consumer trend seems to be toward adding driver distractions rather than removing them. Cell phones, in-car DVD players, cars so big they need their own zip code, MP3 players with visuals (  ), etc...
- To avoid a speeding ticket, one needs to be an alert driver, constantly monitoring the surrounding traffic, the road ahead, the traffic behind, and the sides of the road ahead. When you are speeding, you should be driving with just enough fear to keep you on your toes. Modern cars are quiet and smooth enough so that you could easily do 100mph as comfortably as you can do 60. So fear of the state police is all that some people have got left to keep them from getting complacent at high speeds.
I'm perfectly happy with the current paradigm, which is: I can speed if I'm being alert enough to avoid being seen by cops, and not so overt about it that I'm causing other problems (such as weaving in and out of traffic, blowing by other cars, etc.).
This basically means most of the general public doesn't speed too much, which would make the roads unsafe. And, it gives the state police a pretty good place to collect the revenue they need to collect. I think they have an important function, and I like knowing that they're patrolling our highways, and I'm happy to let the non-alert drivers support that by getting nailed for speeding tickets with regularity. I think what we've got now is a pretty good compromise, and it rides the "edge" between too-draconian and unsafe-anarchy reasonably well.
The only thing I'd like to see changed, is better enforcement and compliance to the "slower traffic keep right" rule, but that's a completely different discussion.
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#162838 - 27/05/2003 12:41
Re: Speeding
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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He wasn't, we use MPH for speeds in the UK as well. /me displays his complete ignorance of UK driving.
Why did I think the UK was KM/h?
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#162840 - 27/05/2003 13:01
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Rebuttal: Each time we increase the speed limits, people begin driving X mph faster than what's posted. If speed limits were 125, we'd all exceed those limits eventually. While I think the first half of your statement is demonstrably true right now, I think it has more to do with the fact that speed limits are unrealistically low than because people will always exceed the speed limit. I believe that Interstate highways can realistically be driven at 90MPH. Assume that's the case for a second. Now assume that people want to find the natural speed of a road. If the speed limit is 55MPH and they feel that they can safely go 15MPH over, then they're going to drive at 70MPH. If the spped limit's 65, then they're going to drive at 80. But if the speed limit's 90, then they're going to drive at 90, because that's the right speed. This is assumption, to some extent, but it's based on a small personal sampling of traffic patterns in my experience. Most drivers on the road are mouth breathing knuckle-draggers, and honestly, I don't trust them to drive over 65-75 mph safely. Good point. Perhaps we should have driver ratings, so that some can go only 55, some 65, some 75, etc. There could be other restrictions as well, like lane restrictions. Of course, the rating would have to be obvious to other drivers, especially cops, and that's a problem because I might be driving my grandmother's car, and while I have a 1-A rating, she may have a 4-F. SO this might not really be feasible, but it would be ideal, I think. Regardless, good point. Recently, we did increase the speed limits. That's not much of an argument. The current speed limits are a compromise, taking into account the fact that we know people exceed them. Repeat; already rebutted. The faster we drive, the more alert we need to be. Making one thing illegal because it might possibly lead to something else is one of my biggest pet peeves. Make the wrong thing illegal, not the thing with which it combines. Of course, you could conceivably argue that the speed is more wrong than the distraction, but I wouldn't agree. To avoid a speeding ticket, one needs to be an alert driver Basically, drivers suck, and making them hyper-aware due to fear makes them suck less. Okay. There's something to be said for that. But there are horrible drivers that can cause just as many accidents who drive exactly the speed limit. My mom is one of them. Speed is only one of the potential problems bad drivers exhibit, and it's probably not the worst. Wild lane changing is likely to be much more dangerous. I can speed if I'm being alert enough So an ad-hoc ratings system.
Basically, we mostly don't disagree on the issues, but we come to different conclusions from them. You seem to be interested in going faster than other people. It kind of comes across as elitist, although I'm sure that's not what you mean. On the other hand, I'll readily admit to being elitist.
I don't think speed kills. I think bad driving does, and that's what needs to be outlawed, not speed. It's too bad that Darwinism doesn't work here, as one screwup can take out more than just one bad driver.
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Bitt Faulk
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#162841 - 27/05/2003 13:04
Re: Speeding
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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I thought 70 on pretty much all of 79 in WV was fine, personally, but that was never really under "adverse" conditions.
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#162842 - 27/05/2003 13:08
Re: Speeding
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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I thought we were the only ones still using non-metric until I visited London in September. I noticed the cabbie doing 90 on I forget which motorway, and didn't remember 90 km/h seeming that fast. Then I realized...
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#162843 - 27/05/2003 13:10
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Why did I think the UK was KM/h?
You probably confused us with Europe.
Rob
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#162844 - 27/05/2003 13:15
Re: Speeding
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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You LOVE driving in NoVA? Good Lord, man. NoVA is one massive construction zone with a) insane people swerving all over the place and/or b) dead stop for hours Well, northern Virginia is a large place In my home town I have absolutely no problems getting anywhere. I can get to Washington DC, Tysons Corner, Dulles Airport, or southern Maryland, all in 15 to 20 minutes (about 10 minutes for Tysons).
What's more, there are multiple ways of getting to most of these places. I have over 4 equal ways to get to Tysons Corner, each with cut-throughs to the other. The problem with Williamsburg is that I know all the roads, and there are no cut-throughs to get anywhere.
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Matt
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#162845 - 27/05/2003 13:24
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I think it has more to do with the fact that speed limits are unrealistically low than because people will always exceed the speed limit. I think we have to agree to disagree on this. It's my opinion that people will always try to exceed whatever limits are set. It's human nature.
Of course, you could conceivably argue that the speed is more wrong than the distraction, but I wouldn't agree. I wouldn't argue that, I agree that distractions are worse than speed. But I believe that it's speed combined with distraction that is the biggest problem. Being a little distracted at 25mph isn't much of a problem unless you're in a neighborhood with children playing. It's just that speed happens to be something we can regulate easily because there's an infrastructure in place to do that right now. Regulating distractions is more difficult at the moment.
You seem to be interested in going faster than other people. It kind of comes across as elitist, although I'm sure that's not what you mean. On the other hand, I'll readily admit to being elitist. I'll readily admit it to being an elitist as well. At least, I'm an elitist in this sense: I believe that anyone who's willing to be extra-alert and to maintain a constant scan of his environment, so much so that he can see the cops before they see him, has earned the right to exceed the speed limit because he's a safer driver than most. This was the central premise of that book I read on the subject of avoiding speeding tickets, and I agree with it.
I don't think speed kills. I think bad driving does, and that's what needs to be outlawed, not speed. Agreed. But again, bad driving combined with speed is the worst of all. And one of the two happens to be easier to monitor and regulate. If I understand correctly, you can also be ticketed for many bad driving habits (tailgating, weaving among traffic, etc.), so in a sense, bad driving is illegal. It's just a question of enforcement.
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#162846 - 27/05/2003 13:31
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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I'm perfectly happy with the current paradigm, which is: I can speed if I'm being alert enough to avoid being seen by cops,
Of course you are. The fact that you've got a radar detector in your car (at least I remember you've installed one once) doesn't come into play here I'm sure!
No all countries are so tolerant when it comes to radar detectors. If I'm caught using one over here, the detector gets immediately confiscated + an fine that would make anybody's head spin is thown my way. 
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#162847 - 27/05/2003 13:32
Re: Speeding
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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You probably confused us with Europe.
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#162848 - 27/05/2003 13:44
Re: Speeding
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Of course you are. The fact that you've got a radar detector in your car (at least I remember you've installed one once) doesn't come into play here I'm sure! The radar detector is only one tool, and it does not usually come into play when referring to the kind of speeding we're talking about here.
The radar detector is usually only useful against standing traps, and those are usually on city roads, not interstates. On the interstates (at least in my experience), the cops almost always pace you, or do the onramp-drop and then pace you.
Sometimes the CHPs will run continuous moving radar on an interstate, but any time I pick up one of those, I've seen the cop long before I'm in any danger of being clocked by his radar. Often, when I see CHPs on an interstate, the radar detector doesn't even blip. They're just pacing other cars to nail them. As always, a radar detector is no substitute for being an alert driver.
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#162849 - 27/05/2003 14:04
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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I believe that Interstate highways can realistically be driven at 90MPH
If that is the case, we need to re-educate drivers on the basics of highway driving again.
1. The left lane is the PASSING lane, not a travelling lane.
2. When merging from an on-ramp, match the speed of the traffic on the motorway
3. Do not pass on the left (related to 1)
I heard a comedy bit a while ago that went something like this: We should have a national system of driver rating. Everyone gets a high-powered suction dart gun, with darts that have little signs on them that say "Stupid Driver". If you see a stupid driver, shoot his/her trunk with the dart sign. If a cop notices 10 or so signs on the person's trunk, he'll pull them over, shoot them, and roll their body into the ditch.
I'm not so sure about the shooting part, but at least they could pull their license.
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#162850 - 27/05/2003 14:12
Re: Speeding
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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When merging from an on-ramp, match the speed of the traffic on the motorway Actually, this is a potential reason not to increase the speed limits. Not because people are too stupid to accelerate on them (which they are), but because some of them are so short as to make it difficult to accelerate to traffic speed before being forced to merge now.
The other day, I encountered one of those people who refuse to accelerate on an entrace ramp. Not too uncommon, unfortunately, but he was driving a late model Porsche 911 Turbo. Certainly not the fastest car in production, but at the same time, definitely the fastest car on the road.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#162851 - 27/05/2003 14:16
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Hmmm, I’d have to say I’d agree with Bitt here: the law should be about what society collectively agrees is right or wrong; it should not be used as a tool to weed out those who don’t have the abilities to break it without being caught. Ok, well maybe that isn’t exactly what he’s been getting at, but for me I think that making laws that aren’t supposed to be followed by everyone is an abuse of our legal system.
I personally don’t speed much in town, if at all, even when I’m on the free way. About the only time I do is when I’m on the open freeway traveling in between cities. I personally feel good about 70 mph limits, but I know this isn’t universally true. When you have an area where everyone wants to go faster, including the police, why make limits that everyone wants to break? I know you’ll argue that it’s in people’s nature to break limits (with which I’ll agree), but there are some limits that everyone seems to feel are ludicrous. Last year they set Houston’s limits back to 55mph and I had a real struggle trying not to speed, as did everyone I talked to (after about six months they moved it back up). But like I said earlier, here in San Antonio I hardly ever speed and a large number of cars around me seem to drive within the speed limit as well. This would suggest that there are reasonable limits that a large portion of people could abide.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#162852 - 27/05/2003 14:17
Re: Speeding
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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don't mind the speed limit as long as people observe MY speed limit
As George Carlin said... "You ever notice out on the freeway, anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anybody going faster than you is a maniac?"
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#162853 - 27/05/2003 14:19
Re: Speeding
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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You ever notice out on the freeway, anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anybody going faster than you is a maniac? Heh, tried to point this out to my wife once during one of her many driving rants. Bad idea . . 
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#162854 - 27/05/2003 14:51
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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I think it has more to do with the fact that speed limits are unrealistically low than because people will always exceed the speed limit. - bitt
It's my opinion that people will always try to exceed whatever limits are set. It's human nature. - tfabris I know that the reason I go anywhere from 5 - 15 mph over the peed limit is because 9 out of 10 times or more I can pass a cop going that much over without fear of being pulled over. The other times I hope that my reflexes will be enough to slow me down to just 5-10 over before the cop looks up. I think that if they raised the speed limits to, say, 90 and then ticketed anyone going 5 or more over the limit then that would prevent a lot of people from speeding. I think a lot of people speed because it's generally accepted that you can speed within reason. It is much more rare that I see someone going more than 15mph over the limit (i.e. see someone passing me) just for that reason.
- trs
_________________________
- trs
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#162855 - 27/05/2003 14:58
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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It's my opinion that people will always try to exceed whatever limits are set. It's human nature.
This is not correct.
Many different studies (here is just the first one Google brought up) have demonstrated time and time again that the "85th percentile rule" is ubiquitous. In summary, the speed that about 85% of the drivers employ (+/- 5%), even in an unregulated enviornment, is the optimum speed for any particular road in terms of both traffic flow and safety. In other words, the great majority (like about 85% ) employ reasonable speeds regardless of the posted limits.
Speed does not kill. It's speed differential that is dangerous. Somebody driving at the legal 55 MPH speed limit when 85% of the traffic is moving 15--20 MPH faster is far more likely to cause an accident than the person driving illegally at 80 MPH.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#162856 - 27/05/2003 15:02
Re: Speeding
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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the great majority (like about 85% ) employ reasonable speeds regardless of the posted limits. Vindication!
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#162857 - 27/05/2003 15:05
Re: Speeding
[Re: davec]
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enthusiast
Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 290
Loc: Denver, CO
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I got tagged for 2 frickin turn signal violations while I was going to school in Austin...rookie cops 'upholding the law'
My car insurance rate loved that
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-Jason
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#162858 - 27/05/2003 15:17
Re: Speeding
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Haha, very true. Although I never said anything about the people driving faster than me, did I? So my statement wasn't hypocritical at all. The line is good, though
And just so you know, I tend to drive in the left lane with the faster traffic, but if there's nobody in front of me and someone is coming up behind me, I get over. I do exactly what I would have others do.
I do call some people maniacs, but those are not the people simply driving fast, they're the people driving dangerously. If someone is doing a lot of lane changes and cutting people off, that's a maniac. Though someone going 30mph faster than all other traffic is also a maniac, IMO
_________________________
Matt
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#162859 - 27/05/2003 15:29
Re: Speeding
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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In other words, the great majority (like about 85% ) employ reasonable speeds regardless of the posted limits. Then please explain the observed behavior I've seen, on the same freeway (interstate 80 between my home and Sacramento), as the speed limits were changed:
- When the speed limit was 55, the average traffic speed was 65-70.
- Now that the speed limit is 65, the average traffic speed is 75-80.
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#162860 - 27/05/2003 16:25
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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10-15 over the limit is about what anyone willing to speed is probably willing to risk ticket wise?
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#162861 - 27/05/2003 20:17
Re: Speeding
[Re: loren]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Or the fact that 25 over becomes a misdemeanor, not just a traffic violation? I once had to court for doing 50 in a 25. I was the only person in the room that plead guilty. Know what my fine was? $60.50. Gotta love Alabama.
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#162862 - 27/05/2003 20:47
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Actually, this is a potential reason not to increase the speed limits. Not because people are too stupid to accelerate on them (which they are), but because some of them are so short as to make it difficult to accelerate to traffic speed before being forced to merge now. This right here is a big problem in Colorado Springs at one intersection. It is under construction and the entrance ramp is rather short, due to a bridge shortly after it forcing people to merge (5 lanes on the bridge right now and the median, bridge will eventually hold 3 normal lanes). Speed limit in that area is 45, but people average 65-70 due to it being about a mile away from where the limit was 75 for those traveling between Colorado Springs and Denver.
Police set up speed traps there with 4 motorcycle cops and have no downtime. After seeing some of the accidents there from people unable to go anywhere when things go bad, I always slow to 50 max, and usually sit in the left lane. It's pissed quite a few people off, but it prevented a few people from causing more accidents.
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#162863 - 27/05/2003 20:51
Re: Speeding
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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#162864 - 27/05/2003 23:21
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Then please explain the observed behavior I've seen, on the same freeway (interstate 80 between my home and Sacramento), as the speed limits were changed:
- When the speed limit was 55, the average traffic speed was 65-70.
- Now that the speed limit is 65, the average traffic speed is 75-80. Because in California, cops typically won't bother pulling you over if you're only doing 10-15 over. Cop tolerance for speeding seems to depend on the region. Last time I was in Detroit, it seemed like it was 5-7 over. Along the 401 in Ontario, it seemed like it was 15-20Km/h. My preferred speed on roads that can handle it is between 110-120Km/h, decreasing as road conditions deteriorate. It has nothing to do with the posted limit -- that's just a reasonable compromise between what my truck can handle, and not burning through gas at an even more unreasonable rate than what the truck does normally.
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#162865 - 27/05/2003 23:37
Re: Speeding
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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#162867 - 28/05/2003 04:26
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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The Association of British Drivers has this interesting page on the subject of speeds and limits. I think it is fully relevant to the US situation as well.
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#162868 - 28/05/2003 06:54
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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0-15 over the limit is about what anyone willing to speed is probably willing to risk ticket wise? Or the fact that 25 over becomes a misdemeanor, not just a traffic violation? Vindication! I don't see how. Now you're claiming that the reason not to raise speed limits is because significantly violating the speed limit is a crime?
That's like saying prostitution should remain illegal because if you turn tricks you'll go to jail.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#162869 - 28/05/2003 07:03
Speed traps
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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The radar detector is only one tool, and it does not usually come into play when referring to the kind of speeding we're talking about here.
Just because I have, mmm..., a little too much experience with this: please be careful with this attitude in VA and NC. I go back and forth between DC and NC all winter long (season tickets for Duke basketball games) and lots of the rest of the year to see family and the beaches and mountains of NC, and have seen most of their shenanigans on a lot of both states' highways.
VA State Police have standing speed traps on the interstates (almost always in the median crossover spots). They're generally easy to avoid if you interpret the "Authorized Vehicle Only" signs at the crossover spots as "Speed Trap Lurks Here" and slow down a bit.
NC can be vicious at 10-15 mph over - unmarked State Troopers surf from the other direction, using instant on, but using it so rarely you frequently have no warning. Oh, and by unmarked: I've seen them use a 12 year old, three model out of date Caprice they'd mothballed. Standard license plate. No visible markings, lights or antennae until he lit up like the cliched Christmas tree. Fortunately it wasn't me, but a car a 1/2 mile in front of me. Mid 80's Mustangs still make me tense up. And, of course, this is the state that used Volkswagon Rabbits way back when, too.
I don't know if it's true or not, but a lawyer friend of mine in California tells me that the state appropriates money for "Speed Checked by Radar" signs on the freeways, but doesn't actually give CHP money to actually buy radar guns. Nice state.
-jk
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#162870 - 28/05/2003 07:35
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Obviously, ideal speed on that particular strech of road is at least 75-80, but people are reluctant to drive as fast if that would put them in danger of serious fine. I know of long streches of two-lane roads in Croatia where one can safely do 90 mph (and, according to movies I saw, there are plenty of them in the States); however, I limit myself to around 10 over (that is, 70 or so), because that's the point where fines bacome steeper. There are other streches, OTOH, where I don't reach posted limit because I don't feel comfortable with it.
About your 'being alert' theory: I agree, of course, that driving in any kind of demanding environment calls for constant situational awareness (e.g. one has to be aware of vehicles behind and in adjacent lanes to one's own, so that in the case of a need for quick evasive maneuver no checking is required). However, scanning all 'generic cruisers' for telltale signs of constabular occupation, discriminating various misterious pole-mounted devices, scrutinizing overpasses and checking roadside foliage for hidden Bad Blue Boys* is distracting per se.
It is reckless driving that kills (which comes in many forms), not speed as such. It is absolutely inexcusable to use traffic violation fines as fiscal instrument (that is, local government budget fodder), instead of strictly safety enhancing measure. Isn't it a duty of city and county officials (and police departments) to promote both traffic safety and usability of roads? Hmm, I wonder is there a lucrative lawsuit somewhere there....
*) BBB was originaly the name of best Zagreb soccer team's (Dinamo) fan club (blue jerseys, obviously). Nowadays it is also used for police (dark blue uniforms).
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#162871 - 28/05/2003 09:06
Re: Speeding
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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As a former Chief of Police, I agree with your assertion that speeding tickets are an accepted method of generating revenue for many municipalities. IMHO, one of the benefits of law enforcement as a career is the ability to use discretion to accomplish the mission (of public safety). I, for one, NEVER stopped a car for exceeding the speed limit by less than 15mph and the normal result was a written warning (unless the driver was a total jackass -- some people work so hard at getting a ticket it is almost a shame not to give them one for their efforts). Why? Because I routinely exceed the posted speed limit by around 10mph in non-residential areas and refused to be a hypocrite. That, however, was the way that I chose to conduct business and is not by any means the norm within the law enforcement community. In my case, I not only refused to be a part of a municipal revenue generation machine but I did not allow my officers to do so either. Additionally, I endeavored to hire officers who came equipped with common sense and not some of the more robotic types with chips on their shoulders that unfortunately populate many police agencies. Again this was my professional philosophy and was one that was not necessarily shared by my law enforcement executive peers. My point in saying all of this is that (much like any other profession) the law enforcement field is made up of individuals and, as such, does not lend itself to broad characterizations of the people who have chosen that vocation. When you say that you “would have more respect for police if” they did something differently, please remember that there exists a silent majority of law enforcement officers out there who are doing tremendous job of keeping you and your communities safe under less than ideal working conditions. Unfortunately, because these officers are generally otherwise engaged in what I would characterize as “real police work” (i.e. the handling of crimes v. conducting routine traffic enforcement), they are not encountered nearly as often by the general motoring public. Now that I have uncloaked and revealed myself as someone with a law enforcement background I expect that the flames are not far behind but I felt that the point needed to be made.
Donning fire retardant gear now…
_________________________
[red] Nick Tomlin [/red]
02 Cadillac Escalade
60gb MkIIa - Blue
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#162872 - 28/05/2003 09:14
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Boo! Hiss!
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#162873 - 28/05/2003 09:18
Re: Speeding
[Re: bonzi]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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driving in any kind of demanding environment calls for constant situational awareness
Just a question for those in Europe: I remember when I was visiting relatives in Germany that whenever we would drive somewhere, that is all that was going on... driving. Especially when on the Autobahn doing 260 km/h. The movie "The Transporter" reminded me of this when the main character (Jason Statham) stops during his drive to drink a fruit juice and eat a muffin. In the US we would be eating that in the car while talking on the phone and cueing up another playlist on our Empegs.
I've often heard the statistic that there are fewer accidents on the Autobahn, although the accidents that happen are normally deadlier. Is this because the emphasis is on driving only, and not having other distractions in the car like food, etc. I know that while the Empeg team designed the Empeg so the visuals do not default to on in the car, many US based head unit makers are creating more and more visualizations that are on all the time by default. We also have drive-thru fast food restaurants, drive up ATM's, drive through liquor stores, drive through convinience stores, drive-thru weddings (Las Vegas), sex in the car, etc.
OR, is it the longer driver education classes in Europe that contribute to safer driving?
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#162874 - 28/05/2003 09:29
Re: Speeding
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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drive-thru weddings (Las Vegas), sex in the car And it doesn't end there...
Peter
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#162875 - 28/05/2003 09:51
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I have a couple of friends who are in the law enforcement community who do not meet the typical stereotype of cops. However: the more robotic types with chips on their shoulders that unfortunately populate many police agencies
...
the law enforcement field is made up of individuals and, as such, does not lend itself to broad characterizations of the people who have chosen that vocation. I think you contradict yourself. Not to say that all cops have a chip on their shoulders (as you put it), but many do. I think that that's a common mindset that leads people to the occupation of law enforcement. It' also may be one that develops dealing with scum, as I'm sure they deal with such types more often than the rest of us (or maybe not).
Out of curiosity, what was the size of your police force and the size of the municipality you served? And why are you a former Chief of Police?
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Bitt Faulk
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#162876 - 28/05/2003 09:58
Re: Speeding
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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The Association of British Drivers has this interesting page on the subject of speeds and limits. I think it is fully relevant to the US situation as well.
That is a GREAT link. . . everyone discussing this should read it... it's got stats for the US as well.
"A comparison of international motorway speed limits and fatality rates is shown on the chart below. It is quite apparent that there is no correlation between the two. The United States, with one of the lowest motorway speed limits, has an almost identical fatality rate to Germany, with no limit. There are clearly far more significant factors than speed that must explain the large differences in fatality rates between countries."
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#162877 - 28/05/2003 10:13
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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I don't think that I contradicted myself at all. I noted that the "more robotic types" populated many "agencies" with no reference to their numbers within those agencies (i.e. inferring that the problem was one that was faced by many departments). That particular comment was in keeping with my thoughts on the importance of hiring and retaining individuals (to the extent possible) who do not demonstrate a predisposition toward that mindset.
As to my background, I spent 15 years working for the Baltimore City Police Department in numerous capacities (mostly with investigative focus – I left as a Detective in the Homicide Unit) before taking a position as Chief of Police in a suburb of Madison, WI. My agency had 15 sworn officers and served a population of approximately 5000 citizens.
Finally, I am a “former” Chief of Police because I accepted a senior executive service level position with a program of the US Department of Justice in early 2000.
_________________________
[red] Nick Tomlin [/red]
02 Cadillac Escalade
60gb MkIIa - Blue
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#162878 - 28/05/2003 10:58
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Additionally, I endeavored to hire officers who came equipped with common sense and not some of the more robotic types with chips on their shoulders that unfortunately populate many police agencies. Again this was my professional philosophy and was one that was not necessarily shared by my law enforcement executive peers. This is very cool. The situation you describe was echoed in the book I read on the topic. The authors were quick to point out that all police officers are different, and that some were sticklers about speed and others were not. They even had an extensive discussion (which I took with a grain of salt) about how to judge the character of the officer who pulled you over.
Their reasoning was that the officer might be one of the "chip on his shoulder" types, in which case you would need to take a different conversational stance than you would with a more laid-back person, in attempting to talk your way out of a ticket.
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#162879 - 28/05/2003 11:02
Re: Speed traps
[Re: jmwking]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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They're generally easy to avoid if you interpret the "Authorized Vehicle Only" signs at the crossover spots as "Speed Trap Lurks Here" and slow down a bit. There are some spots on I-80 near Truckee that are exactly like this. You're right that radar traps do sometimes get used on interstates and that a radar detector is still useful in that situation.
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#162880 - 28/05/2003 11:07
Re: Speeding
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I don't see how. Now you're claiming that the reason not to raise speed limits is because significantly violating the speed limit is a crime? That's not what I was trying to say. I was jokingly saying that my premise (people will always exceed the speed limit by approximately 10mph regardless of what that limit is) was vindicated by the statements about fine-fear in the thread.
However, there is enough statistical evidence linked in this thread, including the link to the British site, which clearly states my premise is provably incorrect, so I withdraw it.
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#162881 - 28/05/2003 11:44
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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Their reasoning was that the officer might be one of the "chip on his shoulder" types, in which case you would need to take a different conversational stance than you would with a more laid-back person, in attempting to talk your way out of a ticket.
I would agree wholeheartedly. As I stated earlier in this thread, unless I was really given a hard time by the motorist, they would wind up with a written warning. This served several purposes. First, it allowed others to see that enforcement was occurring and caused them to modify their behavior accordingly (at least while a marked car was in sight ). Second, the vehicle stop was documented so that a record of the incident existed should questions arise in the future. The important thing here is that the public was served without the issuance of a citation in most cases and my officers remained free to conduct routine preventative patrols in residential areas and to answer calls for service.
That having been said, I have been told by many officers that they have made up their minds as to whether or not to issue a citation before they even get out of their patrol cars. Because of this fact, the safest bet when faced with one of these unpleasant situations is to err on the side of caution and be very respectful to the officer at the scene (while quietly documenting the circumstances of the alleged violation for a challenge in the most appropriate forum - i.e. a court of law).
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02 Cadillac Escalade
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#162882 - 28/05/2003 12:00
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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That having been said, I have been told by many officers that they have made up their minds as to whether or not to issue a citation before they even get out of their patrol cars. Because of this fact, the safest bet when faced with one of these unpleasant situations is to err on the side of caution and be very respectful to the officer at the scene (while quietly documenting the circumstances of the alleged violation for a challenge in the most appropriate forum - i.e. a court of law). Yup, exactly. The book went into great detail about this.
In order to talk your way out of a ticket, you first need to be certain of whether or not the officer got a decent clocking, and how the clocking was obtained. Like you said, in many cases the officer is ready to write you up before he even walks up to your car. If he got an ironclad clocking, giving him a hard time is only going to solidify that decision. If you are respectful and polite, you might be able to admit your speed, apoligize, and throw yourself on his mercy. It's worked for me (once...).
However, you might have reason to believe he didn't actually get a good clocking, and he's the type that's pulling you over just to be snarky and make you admit your speed verbally. In that case you can (respectfully) ask what proof he's got, and intimate that you'd challenge the citation. In those situations, he's going to get REALLY MAD, but he won't cite you because you've just called his bluff. These days, this sort of thing doesn't happen very often and certainly not with the CHP (they're too professional about clocking you and have always-on video equipment). But sometimes you can get away with it with underequipped small town cops. I've never been in this situation, but the book cited some great anecdotes about those kinds of situations.
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#162883 - 28/05/2003 16:32
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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If you plead not guilty to a traffic violation like speeding, and you are found guilty, is the penalty usually the same as the original fine, or can the judge increase it for court costs or just because he feels like it?
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#162884 - 29/05/2003 04:26
Re: Speeding
[Re: cushman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Well, while lots of people here (Croatia) use cell phones while driving (which is legal if you have any kind of hands-free gear, even just an earpiece), seeing people read (and not just glancing at a map but actually read a newspaper or a book) while driving in LA was genuinely shocking to me. Likewise, cup holders are still not common on these shores.
Driving lessons do tend to be somewhat more thorough here. I think (it was 25 years ago) there is something like 10 hours of theory followed by 20-30 hours of driving with an instructor. Test includes written and practical part, and even first aid is kind of covered. One also has to pass a medical checkup (things like epilepsy are disqualifying, while high blood pressure, need for glasses or diabetes will earn you recurrent mandatory checkups every five or so years). However, both driving instruction and test are done in immediate environment, so that I, for exemple, never overtook another car on two-lane road before getting my license, while my cousin from the country never drove on divided highway or passed through semaphore-regulated intersection...
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#162885 - 29/05/2003 04:39
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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As to my background, I spent 15 years working for the Baltimore City Police Department in numerous capacities (mostly with investigative focus – I left as a Detective in the Homicide Unit) before taking a position as Chief of Police in a suburb of Madison, WI.
Wow, real-life Det. Munch or Lt. Giardello!
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#162886 - 29/05/2003 04:50
Re: Speeding
[Re: ]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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In Croatia the fine itself will be the same, but you will also pay $30-$50 of 'court expenses'.
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#162887 - 29/05/2003 04:56
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Well said, Nick!
Some European police forces sometimes put cardboard officers and inflatable patrol cars at dangerous road spots, in order to slow the traffic down. Now, that's having priorities streight!
I have never been stopped unless I was actually speeding (or otherwise breaking the rules). I found that looking a bit sheepish and turning the conversation to funny side sometimes help. For example, I was once stopped for running the red light. The policeman asked me 'What was the color of the light you just passed?' I answered 'Dark yellow, very, very dark yellow' and got away with good laugh and written warning.
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#162888 - 29/05/2003 06:18
Re: Speeding
[Re: ]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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A judge can do whatever he or she wants, so in theory the answer is yes. However, it would be highly unusual for that to happen. The real danger of this would be in a small town court where the "bring in the next guilty party" mentality rules the court and there is far less scrutiny applied to a judge's actions. Again, having worked in that type of environment (i.e. small town), a reduction in fine is infinitely more likely than an increase in fine.
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02 Cadillac Escalade
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#162889 - 29/05/2003 06:22
Re: Speeding
[Re: bonzi]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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Actually, fans of the original book Homicide by David Simon (on which the television series was based) may recognize my last name. My brother, who was a homicide supervisor at the time, gets several mentions.
I was a lowly patrolman at the time the book was written...
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[red] Nick Tomlin [/red]
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#162890 - 29/05/2003 06:35
Re: Speeding
[Re: bonzi]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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Some European police forces sometimes put cardboard officers and inflatable patrol cars at dangerous road spots, in order to slow the traffic down. Now, that's having priorities streight!
During my tenure in Baltimore, I know that the Maryland State Police used this tactic quite often by putting dummies in their cars (I know I am leaving myself wide open for a comment there!) and parking them along the I-95 corridor. This tactic does, however, have its drawbacks as evidenced by a case that I was told about where the same vehicle was allowed to sit in one place for a little too long. Troopers who finally responded to move the vehicle found that someone with a sense of humor (and a rather large set of balls) had slim-jimmed the door, put women's make-up and a dress on the dummy and left a dozen doughnuts on the passenger seat. I would have loved to have been there for that one!
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02 Cadillac Escalade
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#162892 - 29/05/2003 06:43
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Anyway, that was one of my favorite TV shows. Does it (and others like it - NYPD Blue etc) bear any similarity to real life?
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#162893 - 29/05/2003 06:53
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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old hand
Registered: 18/08/2000
Posts: 992
Loc: Georgetown, TX USA
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the safest bet when faced with one of these unpleasant situations is to err on the side of caution and be very respectful to the officer at the scene
In all the years of watching COPS on TV, the one thing I've learned is you don't win arguements with an officer on the side of the road. "Yes sir" and "No sir" is all that needs to be said at the scene. Someitmes they even let you go the rest of the way home if you promise that they won't see your vehicle on the road again for the next 12 hours...
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Georgetown, Texas
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#162894 - 29/05/2003 06:54
Re: Speeding
[Re: bonzi]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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Actually I think that the two you mentioned (Homicide & NYPD Blue) come as close to real life as I have seen. In particular, Homicide's portrayal of some of the small details (such as an endless fleet of identical Chevy Cavaliers for the homicide detectives to use) were exceptionally well done.
In the final analysis none of them come close to real life for a reason. Law enforcement is generally comprised of 99% boredom and 1% sheer terror (American law enforcement officers are not paid for what they do as much as for what they may have to do). Watching a detective wade through a sea of paperwork may be more realistic but it wouldn't make for a very entertaining show .
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#162895 - 29/05/2003 06:55
Re: Speeding
[Re: davec]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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I couldn't agree more!
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[red] Nick Tomlin [/red]
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#162896 - 29/05/2003 07:00
Re: Speeding
[Re: ]
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old hand
Registered: 18/08/2000
Posts: 992
Loc: Georgetown, TX USA
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can the judge increase it for court costs or just because he feels like it?
As long as you don't use the BBS for character witnesses, you'll be OK d33zy...
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Georgetown, Texas
MK2A 42Gb - AnoFace - Smoke Lens - Dead Tuner - Sirius Radio on AUX
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#162897 - 29/05/2003 07:23
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Law enforcement is generally comprised of 99% boredom and 1% sheer terror...
Ah, one of my favorite episodes was one where actually nothing was happening - it was very hot day, air conditioning was broken, everybody was nervous, and baby found in a parrot cage in the basement was put there by cleaning lady who couldn't afford daycare. And the one with the guy killed in the subway, for which Andre Braugher got Emmy, of course...
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#162898 - 29/05/2003 07:30
Re: Speeding
[Re: bonzi]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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As a fan of the show, have you ever read the book? I think you would find it a terrific read as it (the book) is completely factual. It was written by a reporter for the Baltimore Sun who somehow gained unprecedented access to the Homicide Unit for a year. The book pulls no punches and tells it how it really is (or at least was in the late 80's).
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02 Cadillac Escalade
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#162899 - 29/05/2003 15:55
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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I *did* recognize the name and I am a huge fan of that great book! Cool.
I will respond to your post about discressionary enforcement when I get the rest of my thoughts in order...
Jim
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#162900 - 29/05/2003 15:57
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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How has it changed since the 80's? I'm assuming the obvious advances in forensic science, but how about other ways?
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#162901 - 30/05/2003 02:01
Re: Speeding
[Re: njtomlin]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Thanks for the recommendation. The book is on its way.
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#162902 - 30/05/2003 05:59
Re: Speeding
[Re: bonzi]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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I'm sure you'll love it! Let me know...
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#162903 - 31/05/2003 02:51
Re: Speeding
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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If you are respectful and polite, you might be able to admit your speed, apoligize, and throw yourself on his mercy. It's worked for me (once...). Yeah, that can certainly work. I've only been pulled over twice, both times within a year of getting my license. Once I got pulled over for doing 98km/h in a 50km/h zone. The cop that pulled me over asked if I wanted to see the radar printout as proof, to which I said "No, I trust you." I think he was a bit surprised by that one, and he reduced the ticket to a 15 over. The second time, I made a bonehead pass on a rainy morning, doing 120km/h in an 80km/h zone. The oncoming traffic was led by a cop. I saw him pull over and turn his flashers on in my rearview mirror, so I pulled off onto a sidestreet, out of traffic, where he could see me, and just waited for him. That, I think, helped me go from getting my license suspended (he could have ticketed me for a combination of speeding/dangerous driving) to getting off with nothing but a stern lecture.
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#162904 - 31/05/2003 05:08
Re: Speeding
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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Being on the force myself I have experienced this numerous times before. Though traffic/road policing is not my primary job, I am qualified to intervean if I see need to.
I normally let a LOT of behavior slip, but +/- once a month I see something that really is not acceptable anymore and in which I intervean.
This doesn't always result in a ticket for the offender. I can honestly say that -for me anyway- the behavior of the offender when he/she is spoken to is the real reason why he/she receives/gets out of a ticket.
Therefor, here goes :
Archeon's top 5 ways of getting out of a ticket :
5) If you are signaled to stop, do so immediately. DON'T keep on driving, making the officer pull you over himself. This is NOT a good way to start a neutral conversation. Justifying your behavior with a "Oh, I didn't notice you were signalling me to stop" WON'T work. We all have the natural reflex whenever we see a cop in the street (especially if we've just done something wrong) to watch their every move. Cops know this too.
(Cop's thoughts at that moment : "Oh, and lying too? What does this guy take me for?")
4) Don't try to justify your own offence with pointing to somebody else's. So never, and I mean NEVER say to the officer something along the line of : "Hey, that guy over there is doing the exact same thing as I did, so why aren't you stopping him?"
(Cop's throughts at that moment : "Cause now I'm a bit busy ticketing your ass, that's why !")
3) Don't try to be a smartass. Saying things like : "Haven't you got anything better to do ?" won't help your case. It still surprises me that so many think it will. About 60-70% of all people that get fined feel the need to say things like that. Of course 100% of those people get the ticket they deserve.
(Cop's throughts at that moment : "I don't know of any place I'd rather be right now than right here writing you this nice big ticket")
2) Don't argue. Not about the way you commited your offense (after all, the cop saw it with his own eyes), and certainly not about the way the officer does his job. Admit to your fault.
And most importantly...
1) BE POLITE ! I can't stress this enough. God knows how many people have already gotten out of a ticket by a simple "yes, Sir".
Most people don't understand this however. They think : "if I'm going to get this ticket, I'm going to give this cop a piece of my mind. At least I'll get some stress relieve for my money's worth then". These (most) people think when they get pulled over they will get that ticket no matter what. Wrong, absolutely wong. It's mostly their behavior at that particular time that will them the ticket, NOT the traffic offence itself.
So the "ideal" conversation between officer and offender would be something like this.
Say you've just ignored to give way, creating a dangerous situation for the people coming from your right.
"Good day Sir. I've notice you've just ignored to give way at that last intersection. How do you explain that ?"
* "I don't really have an explanation for it Sir. I wasn't really paying attention. I was stupid of me and there really is no justification for my action".
"That's right. You know I should give you a ticket" (notice the should. At this point you're halfway home)
* "You're right Sir, I won't argue about it. I'm sorry"
At this point I can guarantee you that you've got a 90% chance to get out of the ticket. In the case of the other 10% the offence was probably just too big to let go unfined or the officer is too dutiful or just a plain a**hole. (I won't argue that there are some like that in every corps. Most of them aren't though)
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#162905 - 31/05/2003 07:35
Re: Speeding
[Re: BartDG]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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You know, your conversation sample matches 95% of the conversations I've had in the past when pulled over. So far I'm three for three in the last 12 years not getting a ticket (knock wood). They were: 55 in a 35, 62 in a 35 and 80 in a 65.
The way I figure, I know I was speeding, the cops are doing their jobs, they know I was speeding, so what's the point in getting stressed out. Might as well be polite and get things over with.
-Zeke
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#162906 - 31/05/2003 09:20
Re: Speeding
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Unfortunately, the numbers are skewed where I went to school. I've gotten 3 tickets there. TWO for 45 in a 35, and one for a "rolling stop." In all situations I was very polite and humbled, but it didn't help me any. They aren't the nicest cops in that area (they've got a rep for it).
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#162907 - 31/05/2003 09:32
Re: Speeding
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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They aren't the nicest cops in that area (they've got a rep for it).
Sorry to hear that. The 90-10% estimate I made was of course influenced by my personal experience. This might differ in your specific location, but I don't believe it will differ all that much.
I still believe that if you are nice and polite to people they'll do a lot more for you than if you're not. I also believe this is only true for people above a certain IQ. (and yes, I know this works both ways. )
Unfortunately this does not applie to most of the people I deal with on a daily basis. I'm not a traffic cop, so I rarely deal with 'the average citizen'. Mostly I deal with die-hard criminals of which most aren't too bright, hence the IQ remark.
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#162908 - 02/06/2003 08:14
Re: Speeding
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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stranger
Registered: 28/05/2003
Posts: 25
Loc: The Ohio Valley (USA)
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Actually it has changed quite a bit since the 80's. Leadership changes brough slow reforms to an often antiquated system. The Baltimore Police Department has been around since 1784 so you can imagine the traditions developed over all of those years and the difficulty anyone would have in trying to change it. For example, the department's move to replace the espantoon (a term specific to the "tree trunk with a strap on it" carried by the Baltimore Police since the beginning of time) caused a near revolt among the rank and file. Also, the fairly recent trend of "command staff swapping" between NYPD and BPD has resulted in a sort of homogenization of the two agencies in terms of style and direction while leaving the very distinct and rich traditions of the agencies intact.
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#162910 - 16/06/2003 19:34
Re: Speeding
[Re: ]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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#162911 - 16/06/2003 19:35
Re: Speeding
[Re: ]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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