#239363 - 28/10/2004 14:39
Which is more valuable to you?
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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pretty high salary + stable + just an employee + bored
30% salary cut + ownership interest (in a good idea) + smaller company + exciting/fun again
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#239364 - 28/10/2004 14:41
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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b, so long as that 30% cut still allows me to live
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#239365 - 28/10/2004 14:48
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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This does not sound like a hypothetical situation...
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#239366 - 28/10/2004 14:56
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I'm currently in the (a) situation and could see myself here for the rest of my working life. Well, the "stable" thing could go away at any moment, which is really at the crux of the matter.
No job is truly stable. And if I'm not doing anything particularly exciting, it means that I'm not learning new things. So when this job does go away (and I'm pretty sure it's a "when" rather than an "if"), then I'm sort of behind the curve. So that's an issue.
Interestingly, my friend Tod was in situation (b) recently and got out of it to come work where I work. It was his experience in some of the new stuff he'd learned with (b) that allowed him to get the job at (a).
So it's all trade-offs. I'd say if you're ready for excitment and change, go (b). If that scares you, stick with (a).
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#239367 - 28/10/2004 15:11
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 13/04/2001
Posts: 1742
Loc: The land of the pale blue peop...
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i choose b as i dislike my current job but it gives me loads of dosh and loads of time off
also b might give you more cash in the end
_________________________
P.Allison fixer of big engines
Mk2+Mk2a signed by God / Hacked by the Lord
Aberdeen Scotland
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#239368 - 28/10/2004 15:21
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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These days, (b) by a mile. I've been (a) for 5 years and if I had an opportunity at (b) that I truly believed in, I'd be gone yesterday.
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#239369 - 28/10/2004 15:52
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
These days, (b) by a mile. I've been (a) for 5 years and if I had an opportunity at (b) that I truly believed in, I'd be gone yesterday.
Yup, good projects (in my case, software) are hard to find.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#239370 - 28/10/2004 18:03
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
No job is truly stable.
Yeah this is the other part too .. It's "relatively" stable where I am now, but that could easily change in a year or two years or hell, even six months. Whereas my dad has worked at the same place for 32 years, the thought of that is unfathomable to me.
Quote:
And if I'm not doing anything particularly exciting, it means that I'm not learning new things.
I've learned a LOT working here, but I agree, a big part of boredom is finding the end of the learning opportunities somewhere. I could always find more things to work on here and make new things for myself, but there's a difference between that and having someone give you a challenge to work on (and knowing you have to figure it out). I've always said that if I look back at me-of-three-months-ago (or my-code-of-three-months-ago) and haven't felt like I've learned anything new that it was probably a sign.
Quote:
It was his experience in some of the new stuff he'd learned with (b)
This was actually what is for me leading into this current job. I had been with a startup that Chapter 11'd and got bought out (I was an early member, but a bit of a peon in the scheme of things). That startup experience definitely hooked me up for this job. This one has been a much more stable company and I've had the opportunity now to work on much larger projects that the startup never would have gotten. Now I feel like I'm ready to go back to the startup armed with a lot more experience and have the chance to do it "right".
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#239371 - 28/10/2004 18:04
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
These days, (b) by a mile. I've been (a) for 5 years and if I had an opportunity at (b) that I truly believed in, I'd be gone yesterday.
This is almost exactly where I am too. I've been working with this company for the past 4 years almost, and on what is basically the same product for 6. As a function of my age, that's a huge amount of time and it's hard to keep adding crap on and fixing bugs on the same thing every day.
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#239372 - 28/10/2004 18:10
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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I'm work at a "b" right now and wouldn't trade it for anything (only 3 percent owner, but I stand to inherit significantly more at some point in the future).
I could have really used the experience of an "a", but I hate the idea of being a cube-dweller. I'd probably be depressed. If you've got the experience of an "a" for a few years, cut loose and create your own destiny instead of being trapped in a hum-drum cube-land selling your soul to the company.
_________________________
~ John
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#239373 - 28/10/2004 18:16
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
cut loose and create your own destiny instead of being trapped in a hum-drum cube-land selling your soul to the company.
Great concept, but doesn't always work in practice. Problem is, there are only so many original good ideas around, and if you don't have one of those, you don't have a successful business. The path to happiness as "your own boss" is littered with people who are breaking their ass just to stay afloat in the face of heavy competition. Believe me, I'm not arguing against chasing your dreams, but if you're going to, you'd better be ready to bounce up and down a few times before you finally strike gold.
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#239374 - 28/10/2004 18:30
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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True that. As 3% owner...I don't have a lot to lose  That said, if 5 average joes with no technology training and one lazy only halfway decent programmer can start a profitable software company with about $500,000 in sales in this our 4th year, I'd hate to see what someone with a really good idea/talent can do.
_________________________
~ John
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#239375 - 28/10/2004 18:38
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: JBjorgen]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
a cube-dweller
The hard part about this decision is that the company I work for now is a really good company. They're cool w/ me working out of my house, hours are good, benefits are great, pay is great, my manager doesn't screw with me, I get respect, etc. It's basically the dream job for a corporate job (but it also is just a "corporate" job, and that's all it will ever be).
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#239376 - 28/10/2004 19:02
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
The hard part about this decision is that the company I work for now is a really good company. They're cool w/ me working out of my house, hours are good, benefits are great, pay is great, my manager doesn't screw with me, I get respect, etc.
That makes your "a" sound not so bad. I would keep the unpredictable results of ownership in mind, but my needle would still point slightly in the "b" direction. I have taken 2 strategic, deliberate pay cuts in my life and they both worked out well, more or less.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#239378 - 28/10/2004 22:23
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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If it was me I would stick with the current situation but look at how many people that are highly successful took a chance and risked losing everything to get to where they are.
It sounds like you just need a shake up of some kind to break the monotony.
_________________________
Matt
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#239379 - 29/10/2004 00:03
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
cut loose and create your own destiny instead of being trapped in a hum-drum cube-land selling your soul to the company.
Great concept, but doesn't always work in practice.
So why not maintain the stability and increase the potential creativity by leaving the corporate workforce and working for a University, non-profit, research group, etc? I've been with a group that is all of those for the past three years and I love it. Almost as stable as you can expect but allowing freedom and creativity AND great opportunities to learn. Sure, I'm not out chasing any of my crazy dreams, but I am still doing what I love. So, I recommend a little A+B.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#239380 - 29/10/2004 00:17
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
So why not maintain the stability and increase the potential creativity by leaving the corporate workforce and working for a University
You know, that's not a bad idea...
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#239381 - 29/10/2004 01:03
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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member
Registered: 25/10/1999
Posts: 149
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(b). This might not be directly comparable to the corporate/startup situation, but I'm currently ditching courses that I'll need to graduate to work on that awesome project in an international research team that involves this cool hot-plug JMX microkernel architecture and is about to change the world, shape the future, save the helpless and whatnot.... so what I want to say is I'm all for the excitement factor. They say that you should look at life like you look at a book. Do not value it by the number of its pages but by its content.
_________________________
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Thomas
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#239382 - 29/10/2004 01:10
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Universities are overrated.
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#239383 - 29/10/2004 01:19
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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enthusiast
Registered: 18/03/2002
Posts: 225
Loc: San Diego, California USA
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Any chance you could stick with A for awhile, start working for B at night and on weekends to test the waters? If you could do that for awhile, maybe it would serve as a small sort of "Test drive" that could help you make the decision? I'm not sure if you already know everything about B and the people / working environment, but sometimes a little trial period can help with the decision making....
Oh well, my 2 pennies....Thanks, Randy
_________________________
Happy owner of 2 Centrals, 2 Empegs Mk2a 160GB, 1 Empeg Mk2a 60 GB, a Rio Riot, 4 Rio Receivers, and two 1GB iPod Shuffles...
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#239384 - 29/10/2004 02:10
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Universities are overrated.
Unversities may not readily succumb to genralization.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#239385 - 29/10/2004 02:16
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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One factor you left out of your equation is age.
As the oldest person on this bbs, I would have different priorities than a youngster (?) like yourself.
At my age, if I chose "b" and it went badly, chances of my ever finding decent employment again would be practically nil.
I have only had one job in my life that I really hated, and I swore a holy vow that I would live in a cardboard box and eat macaroni and cheese before I did that again, and I still hold to that premise. If your current job falls into that category, then choice "b" is your only viable alternative.
Since I can see the end of my productive working life on the not too distant horizon, if I were in your situation my only viable choice would b "a".
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#239386 - 29/10/2004 04:06
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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The simple: B The slightly more in depth: If you've already done enough calculation to figure out that it's approximately 30% and that your current expenses don't overlap into that percentage (or can be cut back so they don't), then B. Look at it this way... In a few years you can have employees of your own posting the very same question to the BBSes they frequent.  And that's a beautiful thing. Bruno
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#239387 - 29/10/2004 04:18
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
Universities are overrated.
Unversities may not readily succumb to genralization.
But they try.
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#239388 - 29/10/2004 07:34
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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B without a doubt. Even without the ownership interest thing it'd still be B. Ownership interests are like lottery tickets: some are indeed worth actual money, but most aren't, and it's foolish to make financial planning decisions around one.
It all comes down to whether you and any dependents (cats...) can live on the 30% less.
Peter
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#239389 - 29/10/2004 07:42
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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I like the alternative:
c: - high salary + very stable + excellent prospects + fun and exciting + brilliant team + possibility of partnership in 5 years or so.
Definitely the best job I have ever had (with the possible exception of when I was regularly playing in a rock band - but that was by no means stable...)
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#239390 - 29/10/2004 10:48
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
One factor you left out of your equation is age.
26, so I think I fall into the youngster category I've never had a job I really hated -- I guess I've been lucky -- I just have a sense that I could be enjoying things more. It's like I mentioned above, that this job doesn't totally suck makes it significantly harder. It really comes down to whether or not I would rather "make my own destiny." I feel confident that if I fail, I can find another job, albeit probably with a lower salary than where I am now (having been one of the original developers on the software they bought, I know a lot about the system, so I'm more valuable to my current company than if I just walked in off the street somewhere else).
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#239391 - 29/10/2004 10:48
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
with the possible exception of when I was regularly playing in a rock band- but that was by no means stable
That's what weekends and vacations are for! (though my wife is starting to get anxious to have a REAL vacation). The day job provides the stability.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#239392 - 29/10/2004 10:48
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: The Central Guy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
Any chance you could stick with A for awhile, start working for B at night and on weekends to test the waters?
I've actually been doing this approach on my own for a while now, but it gets REALLY stressful when you have a day job w/ deadlines and then you go home and have another separate job w/ separate deadlines. I'm at the point now where just keeping things interesting on the side isn't going to do it, I think.
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#239393 - 29/10/2004 10:50
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
Ownership interests are like lottery tickets:
Yeah, I have 495,000 shares from the B that Chapter 11'd that I can line my dog's' crate with. I keep it around because it's funny (and terribly depressing) to look at
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#239395 - 29/10/2004 11:54
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: thinfourth2]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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For me, it's the stress levels, I've got a long running problem with stress and anxiety. My current job, whilst [censored], pays well and being a worker drone has it's advantages, I rarely get called whilst on leave. Problems at work hardly ever land on my desk, I think being in the (b) situation would just make me ill.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#239396 - 29/10/2004 13:00
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: JBjorgen]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
JEmplode?
jEmplode falls into the "labor of love" category I'm scared to try and calculate the number of hours I've put into it ... The ole' no-money-making-time-sink
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#239397 - 29/10/2004 15:00
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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#239398 - 29/10/2004 15:19
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
JEmplode?
jEmplode falls into the "labor of love" category I'm scared to try and calculate the number of hours I've put into it ... The ole' no-money-making-time-sink
I have that problem with all the work I do that isn't OpenAFS or Cyrus. I have a problem with focus.
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#239399 - 29/10/2004 15:26
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
By the way, did you get my last email about riobackup?
Yeah I did .. I was going to take a look at it tonight actually.
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#239401 - 30/10/2004 09:29
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Ugh. Waking up at 6am on a Saturday. It's amazing how much of a stress-inducer money is, even when you try to tell yourself it shouldn't be. Oh well. I meet with my friend today to look at #'s to see if this move makes sense for both sides.
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#239402 - 30/10/2004 12:29
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Sadly, money is as addictive as drinking, drugs, smoking (oh, yeah, I already said drugs, sorry...), gambling, etc. It takes a great deal of effort and discipline to take a lower income job by choice. Still, if the tradeoffs are worth it... That is why I think you are doing the right thing: going through all of the numbers and options in advance to see if it can be done and if it makes sense.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#239404 - 31/10/2004 19:10
Re: Which is more valuable to you?
[Re: mschrag]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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