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#239741 - 01/11/2004 19:47 Scary image for U.S. citizens...
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
A day late for Halloween, but scary enough that I thought it was worth posting anyway.



*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!*
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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#239742 - 01/11/2004 19:57 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
That was the best UI they could come up with? Come on.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239743 - 01/11/2004 20:01 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US

It looks like you've accidentally voted for a Democrat. Would you like to change your vote to Bush?


Attachments
239005-clip.png (145 downloads)

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Bitt Faulk

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#239744 - 01/11/2004 20:47 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
mcomb
pooh-bah

Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Quote:
It looks like you've accidentally voted for a Democrat. Would you like to change your vote to Bush?

LOL, can somebody pass me the monitor wipes.
_________________________
EmpMenuX - ext3 filesystem - Empeg iTunes integration

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#239745 - 01/11/2004 23:17 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
There's just no excuse for [censored] like that. The self checkin's in airports these days are a good example for them to look at. GRRR... bad user interface is so angering.
_________________________
|| loren ||

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#239746 - 02/11/2004 11:08 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: loren]
mschrag
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
I couldn't believe it. At my polling place this morning, when you select a candidate, it turns red and puts a huge red X next to it. Basically exactly the opposite feedback for a user. My immediate reaction was "oh crap -- is this thing somehow backwards from what I'm thinking??". Come on, people, this is NOT that hard of a UI to design. Would a big green check mark kill you?

Anyway, I called my local election board and complained. Interestingly they had representatives from the voting machine company there when I called, so hopefully my gripe got passed along.

And last but not least, have a look at the question (this is actually what appears in the booth) for a new constitutional amendment:
Shall Section 6 of Article II of the Constitution of Virginia be amended to provide that members of the United States House of Representatives, Virginia Senate, and House of Delegates who are serving in the year following a new United States Census, when decennial redistricting is required, shall complete their terms of office and continue to represent the district from which they were elected for that term of office and that any vacancy during the term shall be filled from the same district that elected the member whose term is being filled?

That took me 3 read-throughs to understand what in the world they're asking. This is ridiculous. I have a constitutional amendment too -- it says "You shouldn't be allowed to write sentences that are 7 lines long and require a Juris Doctor to understand if you want regular people to interpret and vote on them."

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#239747 - 02/11/2004 12:27 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: mschrag]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, in reality, it's just a summary. The entire amendment is probably a lot longer and clearer through being more well fleshed-out. After all, it's not like they provide you with a full platform for each of the office candidates. Maybe they should.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239748 - 02/11/2004 13:20 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
"Congressional gerrymandering will only take effect the next time the affected seat is up for regular electiion at the end of the current full term of office."

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#239749 - 02/11/2004 13:59 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
mschrag
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
Quote:
Well, in reality, it's just a summary

Yeah, I'm sure the full amendment is 800 pages and has a rider on it to legalize dolphin molesting, but surely they can do better than that (.... "and don't call me shirley")

Quote:
After all, it's not like they provide you with a full platform for each of the office candidates. Maybe they should.

Not a bad idea actually. In one of the races there was an independent that I had not heard of. Definitely my fault for not keeping up with it, but it would be nice if there was a political overview of each candidate available in the booth.

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#239750 - 02/11/2004 14:20 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: mschrag]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yeah, I've spent all morning researching the non-partisan votes on my ballot. It'd be nice if it were easier to find out what they were.

And, you know, I feel guilty about voting a straight-party ticket, but while Democrats sometimes don't match my views, Republicans never do. I suppose I could vote libertarian in some races, but I don't agree with Libertarians much more than Republicans. I agree with libertarians not infrequently, though.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239751 - 02/11/2004 15:02 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
SuperQ
addict

Registered: 13/06/2000
Posts: 429
Loc: Berlin, DE
I'm so glad my state uses simple fill-in-bubble optical scan systems. Nothing wrong with simple technology
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80gig red mk2 -- 080000125
(No, I don't actually hate Alan Cox)

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#239752 - 02/11/2004 17:27 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Strange, my electronic ballot looked nothing like that image. It was sufficiently simple and attractive. I got through it in about 10 seconds.
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Matt

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#239753 - 02/11/2004 17:32 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: Dignan]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Nothing strange about that. Each county/state seems to be free to use whatever electronic machines they want. You must be in an area that has ones with a good UI. I just hope that UI translates to an error-free voting experience, unlike the woman from West Palm beach who was on CNN. She voted Kerry and state Democrats, and when she got to the review screen (after the vote was already cast) it showed Bush and state Republicans. Just like the funny Diebold video (minus the shrinking Kerry button, I'd assume.) She called an attorney and they allegedly removed the faulty votes and let her re-vote.
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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#239754 - 02/11/2004 17:45 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
I had an electronic voting experience. I'm in MD, using a Diebold machine with no paper trail. Apparently, according to MD state law and our elections person, we are only allowed to use federally approved voting equipment and there is no federally approved e-voting printer.

It was a very straightforward ballot, albeit using Xs rather than checks (I'm color blind, and so can't comment on the colors).

When I was finished, I was presented with a summary page which was concise, and I had a very clear opportunity to either modify my selections or cast them, no attorneys needed.

Now whether there will be any shenanigans between my casting and the counting, I can't say.

-jk

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#239755 - 02/11/2004 17:48 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: jmwking]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I vote on paper with a marksense system and I still feel nervous. There's some sort of automated reader and I have no idea if it's doing its job properly. It'd be nice if it'd print me out a receipt or something.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239756 - 02/11/2004 17:57 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
That automated reader is actually a big win. If you accidentally overvote (e.g., fill in the bubble for Bush and Kerry), then it will reject it and shove it back out at you. Likewise, it will detect if the paper is too thick, making it harder to stuff the ballot box.

Sure, the tallies are kept inside the machine, and some of the older ones don't seem to be terribly reliable. But, the original piece of paper that you filled out will remain, no matter how it's mistabulated. If something goes wrong, they've got your original paper to go back to and recount, either electronically or manually. In short, a precinct-based optical scanner is the best voting technology we currently have.

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#239757 - 02/11/2004 18:03 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: DWallach]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I know. I'd just like a confirmation.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239758 - 02/11/2004 18:16 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Greetings!

It'd be nice if it'd print me out a receipt or something.

I do not know why, but that struck me as amusing. Maybe too many Circuit City / Best Buy stories. I can almost visualize returning to the polling place in the next few weeks... "Hi, I would like to return the president-elect. He is defective. I have my receipt right here..."
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#239759 - 02/11/2004 18:21 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: pgrzelak]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
LOL
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Bitt Faulk

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#239760 - 02/11/2004 18:25 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
There's some sort of automated reader and I have no idea if it's doing its job properly.


Which makes me think.

Our county, too, simply has a scantron-style form (fill in the bubble next to the name). But it occurs to me that the scantron form is read into... you guessed it, a computer. And that computer's results get tallied into... what? Another computer. Right?

Essentially, the entire voting system has been working on computers for a very long time, right?

So what's the big complaint about the Diebold machines? It's just eliminating one layer of potential error. Everyone who thinks that "all computer voting machines are bad because computers have glitches" is forgetting that even the paper votes get tallied into computers. They just don't see that part of it.
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Tony Fabris

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#239761 - 02/11/2004 19:16 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tfabris]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
It's the lack of a paper trail that worries people (or at least in MD). The bubbles, the punched ballots - these are all items that you can recount at some level (albeit it with over-votes and hanging chads). The Diebold machine (without paper trail) leaves no way to recount the original votes.

-jk

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#239762 - 02/11/2004 19:28 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: jmwking]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yeah, but if they miscount by, say, 5%, who's gonna know to start a recount to begin with?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239763 - 02/11/2004 19:52 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tfabris]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
Essentially, the entire voting system has been working on computers for a very long time, right?

So what's the big complaint about the Diebold machines?


The complaint goes something like this. Indeed, once the ballot is scanned, it's all computers after that. However, in the event that the scanner had some kind of malfunction, you still have the original paper to go back to. This allows you to rescan it, or even count it by hand. You can go back to a paper record that the voter held in their hands and take a completely independent, perhaps higher cost for higher accuracy, path toward getting the votes tallied. The existence of that independent path lowers the absolute requirement on the correctness of the primary path. When you go with an all-electronic system (from Diebold or anybody else), then you give up on that independent path.

Incidentally, Bitt, no receipt for you. If you had a receipt, then you'd be able to use it to prove to a third-party how you voted, thus enabling bribery or coercion. However, you raise a good question about when you're supposed to do a recount. In California, they have a mandatory recount of 1% of the paper ballots to make sure they're statistically the same as the primary election results. If the test recount fails, then you have to recount everything.

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#239764 - 02/11/2004 19:58 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: DWallach]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I don't need for it to have my name on it or anything. I just want to see that the machine saw the same thing I intended to mark. The fact that it spits it out directly after I put in my ballot (and, hopefully, that the candidates shown match the ones I picked) is enough. After that, it'd be completely disposable, and if it's unidentifiable and disposable, then it can't be used to prove who I voted for.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239765 - 02/11/2004 20:01 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Hmm. I suppose I could have had the coercer require me to vote in an odd manner such that it was statistically unlikely for me to be able to find the exact match in the trashcan. So each vote could be on a separate piece of paper.

Or you could just have a private display with no physical receipt, but just a double-check.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239766 - 02/11/2004 20:38 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I must admit, I am rather pleased to be reading in the headlines about "long lines" at the polls. It is good to see people voting.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#239767 - 02/11/2004 20:43 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: pgrzelak]
BAKup
addict

Registered: 11/11/2001
Posts: 552
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
"Hi, I would like to return the president-elect. He is defective. I have my receipt right here..."


You owe me a monitor and a can of ginger ale.
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--Ben
78GB MkIIa, Dead tuner.

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#239768 - 02/11/2004 20:55 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
mcomb
pooh-bah

Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Quote:
Or you could just have a private display with no physical receipt, but just a double-check.


It seems like the easiest method would be for the machine to print out a receipt for you to verify. If you are happy with it then you feed it back into the machine. If you don't feed it back then your vote doesn't count. That way there is a paper trail if needed and a hand recount of the receipts can be done for a small fraction of the ballots to ensure the machines are working properly.

It seems so simple to me, I don't understand how we ended up with the Diebold system as it stands.

-Mike
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EmpMenuX - ext3 filesystem - Empeg iTunes integration

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#239769 - 02/11/2004 21:04 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: mcomb]
oliver
addict

Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 691
I just voted, and I’m really glad they didn't replace my districts voting machines with the e-machines. The ones at my local voting place were the really old, huge metal boxes that you stand inside of, and toggle levers and pull a huge handle.

Very simple, with a paper trail, no computers involved at all. I really wish each state used the same equipment. It’s really scary each and every state is allowed to pick and choose which corrupt voting machine they want to use. In my opinion computers shouldn’t be trusted with counting votes, ok well maybe programmers shouldn’t be trusted writing the software that counts the votes.
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Oliver mk1 30gb: 129 | mk2a 30gb: 040104126

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#239770 - 02/11/2004 21:20 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: oliver]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
How is this for an absentee ballot...
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#239771 - 02/11/2004 22:59 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: oliver]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Ok, I had to ask. What is wrong with a simple voting paper and a pen. It seems to work over here
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#239772 - 02/11/2004 22:59 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: oliver]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Happy Birthday. I hope you get the President of your choice...


(as long as it's Kerry. )
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#239773 - 03/11/2004 00:12 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: genixia]
Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
I've mysteriously disappeared from the registered voter list, even though I've been registered to vote at that address for years. Me,and a few other people.
_________________________
Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#239774 - 03/11/2004 00:13 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: Heather]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Did you get to vote?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239775 - 03/11/2004 00:16 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
Yeah, paper ballot, like they'll actually count it. So I wrote in for Larry Flint. I live in NY, it's not like it's gonna change anything.
_________________________
Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#239776 - 03/11/2004 00:19 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: Heather]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Did you spell it right on the ballot?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239777 - 03/11/2004 06:48 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: andy]
oliver
addict

Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 691
Quote:
Ok, I had to ask. What is wrong with a simple voting paper and a pen. It seems to work over here


Well, it depends on which type of pen and paper. If it’s a bubble sheet that gets feed into a computer or requires a #2 pencil, I wouldn't trust it. Take the pen away, and replace it with a hole punch and I still don't trust it.


Edited by oliver (03/11/2004 07:04)
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Oliver mk1 30gb: 129 | mk2a 30gb: 040104126

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#239778 - 04/11/2004 07:11 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: oliver]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Quote:
Ok, I had to ask. What is wrong with a simple voting paper and a pen. It seems to work over here

Well, it depends on which type of pen and paper.

Last time I voted in Canada, it was with a pencil, supplied by the polling station, and paper. Votes are counted by hand. It's simple, it may be slow, but it works. The voting systems here in the US baffle me, having used two different systems in two different elections, and I'm willing to bet there'll be a third system used for the next election, although if I move to a different precinct, it may be the same as one of the systems I've already used. Like... wtf? God help me, if I ever have to use one of those lever thingies. <tinfoilhat>Why does the US make it so difficult to vote?</tinfoilhat>

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#239779 - 04/11/2004 11:38 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: canuckInOR]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
<tinfoilhat>Why does the US make it so difficult to vote?</tinfoilhat>


Try absentee ballot next time. Its simple, really hard to screw up, and you can take your time doing it (which means you can read and study all the propositions rather than worrying about the 3hr long line behind you).

Most of the people here vote that way (of course, we travel a ton also). Assuming they are all counted ( ) it is the best way.

- Tim

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#239780 - 04/11/2004 15:08 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: canuckInOR]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Like... wtf? God help me, if I ever have to use one of those lever thingies.

I think I remember my parents using those things when we went to the polling places when I was little. This is odd, because it seems to me that we were also ahead of the game in terms of electronic voting. I want to say we've had it in some form or another for the last 8 years or more.
_________________________
Matt

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#239781 - 04/11/2004 15:12 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
What's wrong with the lever machine. There's a label with each candidate's name and a lever below it. You flip the lever to select the candidate. Simple. Even better, if you screw up, you flip the lever back, since nothing takes effect until you open the curtain with the big lever, instead of having to ask for a new ballot.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239782 - 04/11/2004 15:44 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
Quote:
What's wrong with the lever machine. There's a label with each candidate's name and a lever below it. You flip the lever to select the candidate. Simple. Even better, if you screw up, you flip the lever back, since nothing takes effect until you open the curtain with the big lever, instead of having to ask for a new ballot.


They're prone to jamming. Once upon a time, in the Helms/Gantt Senate race, Durham was using them. They had to keep the polls open way late (10:00 or 11:00) because they were jamming all over town. Something to do with voting split tickets and an independent county commissioner.

Due to the visibility of the race, it got a lot of national air play.

-jk

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#239783 - 04/11/2004 16:01 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: jmwking]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Hmm. That was just before I could vote. Otherwise, I'd have voted against Helms. I remember convincing other people to vote against him.

Anyway, I don't remember that, but I believe you. Sounds like bad maintenance to me.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239784 - 04/11/2004 16:03 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I have used those machines before. I think they were all mechanical, making punched cards and having a total computed. Not a bad system, but parts and maintenance were nightmares.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#239785 - 04/11/2004 16:47 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: pgrzelak]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
I LOVE those big mechanical booths. I used to beg my mom to let me go with her when she'd vote so i could pull the levers. It felt substantial. It felt like you were DOING something with every satisfying clunk. And when you exited the polling guy would pull that big lever and *CLANK*, your vote was registered. I think I've seen a comedian do a bit about that exact feeling. Hm. Anyhow, now just drawing a line or filling in a circle doesn't resonate the same.
_________________________
|| loren ||

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#239786 - 04/11/2004 17:08 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: loren]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Guess what kind of booth I voted in on Tuesday?

Did I mention there was no line?

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#239787 - 04/11/2004 19:09 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
DLF
addict

Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
Funny you should mention Helms and his various challengers over the years. I had been convinced for months that Bush would win easily, and people were thinking I was nuts. I had to patiently explain how the pollsters back in N.C. always showed Helms' challengers neck-and-neck with him, and he always managed to win easily -- BECAUSE PEOPLE FREAKIN' LIE. Same as on J.D. Power surveys.
<weakly supported generalization>
All polling and surveys are a complete joke. It's like calling the metoerology of weather-forecasting a hard "science."
</weakly supported generalization>
_________________________
-- DLF

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