#242398 - 25/11/2004 15:02
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I've got a desktop G4 which is ok, OS X is very nice but it's still pretty sluggish (although stuff like the user switching and expose in tiger are mouth watering!), but that's possible because mines a 733 without the extra cache.
The Mac evangelist I met with the other day was saying that some older Mac will actually be faster with Tiger than with older OS X versions. Something to do with moving more of the UI rendering into the graphics card GPU.
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#242399 - 25/11/2004 16:05
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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My Dell laptop behaves pretty much the same as the Apple in that respect then.
On my Dell inspiron 9100 here, I still see manual controls in the Power Managment area to warn me at 20%, and standby at 10%. To me, that percentage should be usable battery life, not total. Much like newer cars hit E when you should find a gas station, not when your car comes to a halt.
Sleep, I just tried it, and it took 6 seconds to enter it, and about 8 to come back out. It's funny, because the power light pulses now, much like my Powerbook does when asleep. While this seems better then 2000, it's still not the nearly instant wakeup the Apple systems have. Also, I can't find a way to allow a bluetooth device to wake the system, so if it goes to sleep when running in clamshell mode, I have to open the lid and hit the power button, then quickly close it again before Windows sees two displays and reconfigures my desktop. Odd, since the blue bluetooth light stays on when it is asleep.
It's better, but the minor differences still exist to put the Apple systems on top for how they deal with power managment. I do sometimes wish OS X had a hibernate feature though.
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#242400 - 25/11/2004 16:44
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andy]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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I've got a desktop G4 which is ok, OS X is very nice but it's still pretty sluggish (although stuff like the user switching and expose in tiger are mouth watering!), but that's possible because mines a 733 without the extra cache.
The Mac evangelist I met with the other day was saying that some older Mac will actually be faster with Tiger than with older OS X versions. Something to do with moving more of the UI rendering into the graphics card GPU.
Whoops, I mean't to say panther instead of tiger. Ooh, another speedup in the offing then, there was a marked improvement from the version prior to panther (can't remember which cat it was now!)....
Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware, Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
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#242401 - 25/11/2004 17:58
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
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I've got a desktop G4 which is ok, OS X is very nice but it's still pretty sluggish (although stuff like the user switching and expose in tiger are mouth watering!), but that's possible because mines a 733 without the extra cache.
The Mac evangelist I met with the other day was saying that some older Mac will actually be faster with Tiger than with older OS X versions. Something to do with moving more of the UI rendering into the graphics card GPU.
Whoops, I mean't to say panther instead of tiger. Ooh, another speedup in the offing then, there was a marked improvement from the version prior to panther (can't remember which cat it was now!)....
Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware, Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
The 12" iBook isn't that bad in terms of pricing. High, but not outrageous.
Also, "meant"; mean't would be "mean not", I guess, which makes no sense.
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#242402 - 25/11/2004 19:21
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: Daria]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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speedup in the offing then, there was a marked improvement from the version prior to panther (can't remember which cat it was now!)....
Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware, Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
The 12" iBook isn't that bad in terms of pricing. High, but not outrageous.
Also, "meant"; mean't would be "mean not", I guess, which makes no sense.
Sure, my mac wasn't *that* expensive, but the only "upgrade" in hardware performance is buying newer mac. With my PC I just plug in a new processor or swap out the motherboard & processor, which happens to be a very cheap solution.
Comparing a PC laptop to a mac laptop considerably lowers the price/performance/value for money argument, because they're pretty much sold as is, i.e no upgrades. As far as desktop machines go, I stand by my original point, they're overpriced.
Probably the biggest performance advance apple could make would be releasing the (rumoured to be in existance) port of OS X for intel, but then they don't get to keep selling you the same thing over and over again (hardware).
You're right too, "mean not" doesn't make sense! I meant meant. 
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#242403 - 25/11/2004 19:29
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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As a consumer I want to save as much money as possible. As someone running a company, I'd rather be selling machines at the prices Apple does. (And doing the volumes that Dell does.  ) Bruno
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#242404 - 25/11/2004 20:01
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware,
Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
Tell me about it, I just checked out the price of this monitor/machine they have lent me. It is £3200 !!!
As per usual that includes the normal US-UK mark-up applies, as it is only $4300 on the US Apple store.
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#242405 - 25/11/2004 20:02
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Well, I'd rather people just handed me money, but it ain't gonna happen.
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#242406 - 25/11/2004 20:28
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware, Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
I don't think it is overpriced. It is expensive, however. The price reflects the cost of design (including robustness and ease of use).
A few years ago, Sun Microsystems kit was rock solid (both from software and hardware points of view) and very efficient, but rather expensive. Then they had a big push to get new models out of the door that were much more competitive with prices from (principally) Dell. They incorporated PCI expansion and selected drives and memory from a larger number of suppliers to encourage competition for business. Their low-end workstations and servers now use cases that are basically PC cases. They also changed the way the CPU modules were manufactured and and assembled.
Perhaps unsurprisingly in hindsight, they saw an increase in disk and memory problems and a very nasty problem with certain CPU modules. They have recovered from the problems and their processes are probably better for it.
The result is a low-end range that is better able to compete with the likes of Dell but with a quality and reliability that is closer to Dell kit, too. From a financial point of view, it makes sense: reduce quality, reduce costs and sell more kit. But this misses the point that the brand has been weakened - there is now less value to choosing Sun over any other brand at the low-end.
It is a similar story with HP - once the brand stood for premium product, not they are just another box shifter.
Personally, I'd like to see Apple stay with its high innovation, strong design and reassuringly expensive prices.
Edited by mdavey (25/11/2004 20:29)
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#242407 - 25/11/2004 20:46
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4181
Loc: Cambridge, England
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A few years ago, Sun Microsystems kit was rock solid (both from software and hardware points of view) and very efficient, but rather expensive.
Not literally Sun-made kit, but I happened across this today. Not exactly ultra-compact but still an amazing-looking thing, and certainly the only laptop on this thread so far that has a full-size 64/66 PCI slot...
Peter
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#242408 - 25/11/2004 21:40
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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The result is a low-end range that is better able to compete with the likes of Dell but with a quality and reliability that is closer to Dell kit, too.
I have found Dell kit to be pretty consistently reliable. I own four Dell machines now, including three machine that are over 6 years old. They have all worked very nearly faultlessly, three of them have been on 24/7 for the last 5 years. Two of them live in a less than idea environment, a cold, dusty and sometimes damp garage.
I am trying to think of any hardware problems I have had with them. I think the only problem has been one disk drive that started behaving oddly a couple of years ago (it spins down randomly, causing a pause while it spins up again).
Only one of these three 24/7 machine is a "proper" server, the others are cheap secondhand desktop machines.
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#242409 - 26/11/2004 04:27
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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With my PC I just plug in a new processor or swap out the motherboard & processor, which happens to be a very cheap solution.
This is also possible on most Apple desktop machines, and has been for ages. My G4 Cube for example came with a 450mhz processor, and can be upgraded to a 1.4ghz G4 by replacing the processor card (CPU and L3 cache). Several companies release PowerPC upgrade kits, and some even go between generations. G3 Powerbooks can be upgraded to G4 processors.
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#242410 - 26/11/2004 07:19
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: drakino]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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This is also possible on most Apple desktop machines, and has been for ages. My G4 Cube for example came with a 450mhz processor, and can be upgraded to a 1.4ghz G4 by replacing the processor card (CPU and L3 cache).
Ahh, another Cube owner! Nice machine, too bad it got discontinued so quickly. Any pointers to people providing upgrades?
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#242411 - 26/11/2004 07:24
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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With my PC I just plug in a new processor or swap out the motherboard & processor, which happens to be a very cheap solution.
This is also possible on most Apple desktop machines, and has been for ages. My G4 Cube for example came with a 450mhz processor, and can be upgraded to a 1.4ghz G4 by replacing the processor card (CPU and L3 cache). Several companies release PowerPC upgrade kits, and some even go between generations. G3 Powerbooks can be upgraded to G4 processors.
Yes, but again it's still very expensive compared to the price of upgrading PC hardware. Apple never intended them to be upgraded, hence third party upgrade kits. For that matter, anybody remember the OEM macintoshes that apple quickly killed off when the realised that everybody was buying cheaper mac compatible hardware, rather than their own?
And with regards to the cube, any upgrade in processor would be a blessing, those things were pooooooor......(but silent)
OS X on a PowerPC or OS X on an intel is an absolute no brainer for me.....I'm sure there must be some little voice ratlling around in job's head saying, one day Gate's, I'll have my revenge!
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#242412 - 26/11/2004 17:02
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The conspiracy theorist in me still thinks that that's the exact reason Microsoft invested so much money into Apple a while back. It could have been a payoff for not porting MacOS X to Intel. On the other hand, Apple did decide they made a mistake in licensing Apple hardware to other vendors, so why would they want to change to a model just as bad except where they're getting no hardware licensing fees at all?
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#242413 - 26/11/2004 17:05
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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99% of current PC's aren't "worth" upgrading. The only thing you may keep are drives and the case. Drives and a case aren't a computer. So you're in the same boat as with a Mac.
Bruno
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#242414 - 26/11/2004 17:07
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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one day Gate's, I'll have my revenge!
Your apostrophe license has been revoked. Please remove the apostrophe key, and email it to me using RFC 1437 encoding.
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#242415 - 26/11/2004 17:29
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: Daria]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! Very, very glad that I don't have any consumable liquid anywhere near me right now. 
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#242416 - 26/11/2004 17:36
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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anybody remember the OEM macintoshes that apple quickly killed off when the realised that everybody was buying cheaper mac compatible hardware, rather than their own?
That was a decision made by Jobs when he came back, one of many that saved Apple. They did so to retain control of the platform and to try and elliminate consumer confusion. Back then, Apple looked like any other beige box shipper, with a ton of models and no easy way to know what did what. All the OEM builders were doing the same, leading to more confusion. Jobs goal was to simply the product like to consumer laptop, consumer desktop, professional laptop and professional desktop. The first step was the iMac, and had he not done that, the company would not be around to do the next steps.
OS X for Intel, thats another sticky issue. Looking back at Apples sales numbers for 2002 (before the iPod craze), Apple would have to hit a 25% market share in the first year on OS X to make the same amount of profit they did for selling computers to a 2.4% market share. Thats assuming $50 of profit per OS X license, something not likely to happen if they go the Microsoft route and license it to OEMs. Source.
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#242417 - 26/11/2004 23:10
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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One problem with Apple laptops is they don't make diddy ones. If Apple made a 10in-screen Ibook or Powerbook I'd have got that rather than buying Hugo's hand-me-down Vaio. As it is I'm pretending it's a Macintosh by running Windows XP on it.
I just got one of the vaio t series laptops earlier this week. Battery lasts for 5 hours, it doesn't get hot, and it fits in my purse. Damn I love this little thing. Let's see how long this one lasts before I break the power supply.
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Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#242418 - 27/11/2004 00:31
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I just got one of the vaio t series laptops earlier this week. Battery lasts for 5 hours, it doesn't get hot, and it fits in my purse. Damn I love this little thing.
I also got one recently - it's very sweet, and for some reason I haven't fathomed has a DVD burner on board. I guess if someone on the plane likes the DVD I'm watching, I can burn them a copy!
Rob
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#242419 - 27/11/2004 17:32
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I went to Selfridges in Manchester today to have a good look at one in the flesh. I'm really torn between the 12inch and the 14inch. A kind soul on the board can get me a discount on the iBooks which would make the 14inch not much more expensive than I was willing to splash on the 12inch originally. Would it be worth the extra expense? The bigger screen would be nice but the extra 130mhz on the cpu make that much of a difference?
With the discount I could get the 12inch laptop and a spare battery for the original RRP, although I'm definately getting the bluetooth option installed.
I just wish the insurance company would pull their fingers out....
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#242420 - 27/11/2004 17:49
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: julf]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Ahh, another Cube owner! Nice machine, too bad it got discontinued so quickly. Any pointers to people providing upgrades?
Cubeowner is a great resource to find exactly what can be upgraded. One of the CPU upgrade companies even made a new 10 inch enclosure to support more modern video cards and other heat producing parts.
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#242421 - 28/11/2004 06:25
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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The bigger screen would be nice
I suspect that you don't realize just how much bigger the larger screen is.
Two inches -- big deal, right?
Well, that actually works out to be 36% more screen real estate, because the size of the screen (square inches of screen area) is proportional to the square of the diagonal measurement.
So it isn't 14 divided by 12 = 16% increase, but 196 divided by 144 = 36%.
That is a sizable improvement in utility.
tanstaafl.
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#242422 - 28/11/2004 07:54
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: drakino]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Cubeowner is a great resource to find exactly what can be upgraded.
Great! Thanks!
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One of the CPU upgrade companies even made a new 10 inch enclosure to support more modern video cards and other heat producing parts.
But doesn't that defeat much of the point of the cube form factor and quietish design?
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