#254538 - 19/04/2005 23:42
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I'm not referring to any past debates or discussions. It doesn't make any sense to me to take that stuff into a thread that isn't referring to it. I havn't gotten into any of those topics in quite a while. And when I say "it's not worth it" I simply mean it's not worth carrying on a thread that for whatever reason ended up getting offensive to some or personal. And the reason it's not worth it is because I value what I take as good relationships with people here more than I value any "he said, she said" argument. We're all friend here. The empeg is why most of us joined, but it doesn't explain why we visit every day.
Regarding my understanding of the issue , I was under the impression that the rate at which alcohol is absorbed into the body is a direct result of the water content of the person. This is the main reason that women absorb alcohol quicker then men (assuming they weigh the same). Because of this, mixing non-alcoholic liquids in between alcoholic drinks reduces the rate of alcohol absorbtion. This is also why heavier people are less effected by alcohol. They have more blood and water in their bodies which helps dilute. In addition, the water not only dilutes the alcohol (giving your body more time to process it), water also helps the function of your kidneys and liver allowing them to filter the alcohol. The exception is carbonated non-alcoholic beverage which actually allow the alcohol to be absorbed quicker. A quick Google search seems to confirm my initial impression.
Once alcohol is absorbed into your bloodstream, no amount of water consumption will reduce your BAC. Water can only help prevent the rise of BAC, it can not reduce it once it's in your system.
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Brad B.
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#254539 - 20/04/2005 00:03
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
I can only guess that states that still allow this have very low rates of alcohol related car accidents or the businesses that sell them have a strong lobby. Either way, it doesn't seem right.
Actually, in the article it says:
Quote:
Montana has the highest rate of alcohol-related deaths, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
I guess it was more an issue of cultural change than strong lobbies, because it sure wasn't because of a low accident rate.
This all reminds me of an episode of "Crossballs" that was on Comedy Central about a year ago. They had comedians posing as people who would debate one side of an issue against an unknowing opponant on a fake TV talk show. This one episode they had a comedian saying "The solution is that people just need more practice driving drunk". When asked if he used the 1 and 11 o'clock positions on the steering wheel he said, "No, I use six o'clock... with my knee. I can't hold my burger and a beer in one hand!"
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#254540 - 20/04/2005 00:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
I'm not referring to any past debates or discussions.
I will take you at your word on that, but "please stop being condescending" certainly alludes to a perceived pattern, and not one incident.
Quote:
I was under the impression that the rate at which alcohol is absorbed into the body is a direct result of the water content of the person.
Yes, but the flaw in your logic is that the "water content of a person" dwarfs the quantity of water than a person could possibly suck down and introduce into their bloodstream for the ride home. Of course, all your points about heavier people and women of the same weight are true, but regardless of weight or sex, nobody can consume enough water to measurably change their BAC level, or, certainly, their ability to drive a car. They'd probably overdose on water first.
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#254541 - 20/04/2005 00:59
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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I was amazed--and appalled--when I first studied alcoholism professionally to discovered I'd driven"drunk", i.e.: 2 glasses of wine with dinner for my weight and size, many times,  not to mention that women, even accounting for wieght and size, are more affected than men. California's DMV helpfully supplies a chart with every renewal or other missive they ever send you, apparently in hopes of spreading the word. I think most people have no clue how little it takes to be legally drunk, so that really is helpful.
Edited by kayakjazz (20/04/2005 01:02)
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#254543 - 20/04/2005 01:33
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
I guess it was more an issue of cultural change than strong lobbies, because it sure wasn't because of a low accident rate.
Yikes. You'd think preventable deaths and accidents would be universally avoided in any "culture".
_________________________
Brad B.
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#254544 - 20/04/2005 07:38
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
an issue of cultural change
How do these open container laws work, anyway? Is having an open container of alcohol in the car actually an offence, even if there are other adults in the car, or does it just provide reasonable fourth-amendment grounds for stopping the car and testing the driver for intoxication?
If the former, I'd certainly not vote for it. This sounds like another one of Bitt's laws that attempt to reinforce already-illegal acts by making illegal acts that might lead to them that also make illegal the same acts that wouldn't lead to illegality, and the same "Bitt's Razor" applies: if the driver's intoxicated, prosecute him or her for intoxication; if the driver's not intoxicated (even if others in the car are), in what sense is he or she a criminal?
Or is the issue deciding whether a driver is intoxicated or not? In the UK at least, gadgets like the OP's, except properly calibrated and maintained, are widely used by the police force to measure intoxication, and their accuracy is widely trusted both by the drinking public and by the courts. I'm pretty sure there's no "open container" law in the UK, though in fairness I don't know what would happen if you were stopped while alone in the car and there was some beer knocking about.
I guess it's only the availability of simple tests for drunken driving that have caused it to be so intensively prosecuted. By any standards sleep deprivation causes more accidents and deaths -- a night's missed sleep worsens your driving to the level of an 0.08 BAC drinker -- but it's much harder to test for, not least because being stopped by the police usually causes enough of an adrenaline release to temporarily wake you up.
Peter
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#254545 - 20/04/2005 10:26
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: peter]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
How do these open container laws work, anyway? Is having an open container of alcohol in the car actually an offence, even if there are other adults in the car, or does it just provide reasonable fourth-amendment grounds for stopping the car and testing the driver for intoxication?
As far as I know, if I am stopped with an empty beer bottle in my backseat (passenger area), I can be fined for that. Even if I am dead sober. The laws vary from state to state, but I'm pretty sure this is how it works. I do think it was intended as the latter, and if I were coming home from the beach a day after a party with a six-pack of empty beer bottles I was intending to recycle in my backseat I doubt I would be prosecuted just for that. If I were stopped in the middle of the night for weaving on the road, passed a field sobriety test but had some empty bottles in the car, they would probably nail me. If I was stopped with an open beer in my hand, I'd definately get it.
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#254546 - 20/04/2005 11:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: cushman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I got stopped once for drinking an IBC cream soda. Looks just like beer, tastes exactly opposite.
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#254547 - 20/04/2005 12:08
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
I have seen demonstrations put on by our local police department using volunteers: the volunteers drive through a course marked out by pylons, and their abilities are noted.
The town I went to school in had this demonstration every year. They would take all the confiscated alcohol, bring it out to a large empty lot, and have volunteers from the area's schools (three colleges/universities) come in. You would run the course, then have a drink, rinse and repeat. It was shocking to see how few drinks would cause people to start taking out the cones.
Of course, it was also shocking at how much some people could drink and still run the course perfectly. That was probably a cultural thing (they weren't US citizens).
At work, we went out for lunch and some people had a beer or two to go with it. We got back to work and decided to see how bad having one or two drinks was for coordination. We took turns climbing into the simulator (helicopter) and tried to do a simple take off, fly a pattern, hover, then land flight plan. I don't think anybody managed to take off in few than three tries, and that includes people who flew the actual aircraft for 15+ years and have an insanely stupid amount of hours in that sim.
- Tim
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#254548 - 20/04/2005 12:36
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It's a state-by-state statute. In NC, it's illegal for there to be an open container of alcohol (which means one not sealed in its original container, so even transporting a corked half bottle of wine to a party or something) in the car if the driver has any detectable amount of alcohol in his system, even a level that wouldn't otherwise be illegal.
If I remember correctly, if it's found that the driver is not legally drunk, then it's basically the same as "public drunkenness" and is just a minor fineable offense. Mostly, it's intended to make drunk driving have a stronger penalty, and, as such, is absurd.
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Bitt Faulk
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#254549 - 20/04/2005 13:23
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Some communities laws are a little more restrictive. 
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#254550 - 20/04/2005 14:55
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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When I was in Australia I was told that you were given 15 minutes by the side of the road to sober up before using the brethalizer, as it isn't acurate if you've just been driving along and drinking a beer. This along with the drive through liquor stores seemed very strange, but makes sense.
Matthew
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#254551 - 20/04/2005 15:07
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: matthew_k]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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Reminds me of the NC Outer Banks' Brew Thru drive in beer joints.  -jk
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#254552 - 20/04/2005 19:19
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Interesting to keep in mind, however, is that *any* detectable amount of alcohol in your system will be used to cast a shadow of guilt upon you, should you be involved in an accident. The 'legal limit' and the 'punishable limit' are not the same.
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#254553 - 20/04/2005 20:46
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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By any standards sleep deprivation causes more accidents and deaths
Ummm... I must question that statement.
A very quick google search brought up the following, which seemd to match up with my recollections:
Alcohol-related highway fatalities increased in 2002. Of all the deaths on the highways, alcohol caused 42 percent or 17,970 deaths, up from 17,448 in 2001.
Are you really suggesting that sleep deprivation causes [at least] 43% of all highway fatalities, leaving all other highway fatalities to account for the remaining 15%?
The above 42% statistic applies to the U.S., perhaps things are different in other countries.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#254554 - 21/04/2005 11:21
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Are you really suggesting that sleep deprivation causes [at least] 43% of all highway fatalities, leaving all other highway fatalities to account for the remaining 15%?
The above 42% statistic applies to the U.S., perhaps things are different in other countries.
I don't think 43% is all that implausible, but yes, I guess the thing I read was talking about the UK, where only about 16% of fatalities are drink-related.
Peter
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#254555 - 21/04/2005 23:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Don't want to jump into the debate side of the thread, but want to comment on this: Quote:
Just like Tony Fabris, I'm curious. The fact is, "0.08" is an abstract number. If I feel totally fine after only two beers during a hockey game but I then learn that regardless of the fact that I feel sober I'm in fact blowing a 0.07 it might open my eyes to how low the legal limit really is. (And would make that beer not worth getting the next time around). Or, I might blow on the thing and see I barely register on the scale. Then I'd know I was either being a little paranoid or there were other factors at play.
Exactly. That's exactly what I wanted to find out. Where am I with regard to alcohol paranoia. Am I too conservative when limiting my intake or not conservative enough?
My experience with the toy so far:
- Two weak beers at home (well, "Smirnoff Ice", basically soda-pop flavored beer), I blow an 0.02. I feel only a slight alcoholic effect in my head. In the past, that effect would have been enough for me to ask someone else to drive if possible. Now I know better.
- Margaritas at restaurants a few times, couldn't seem to get any that were made strong enough to register at all. Didn't taste much alcohol in them, didn't feel any effect, didn't register a single point on the toy.
- Shot of Cuervo at a comedy club last night: Didn't feel any effect from it, so didn't bother even trying to blow. I was also drinking soda pop and had just eaten a big meal, so that's most likely the reason it didn't affect me.
So, in other words, I haven't really had a chance to try the toy out seriously yet. But in the meantime, I'm demonstrating that this thing isn't turning me into Tucker Max or anything.
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#254556 - 22/04/2005 05:31
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
- Two weak beers at home (well, "Smirnoff Ice", basically soda-pop flavored beer), I blow an 0.02. I feel only a slight alcoholic effect in my head. In the past, that effect would have been enough for me to ask someone else to drive if possible. Now I know better.
At 5% alcohol I'm not sure that you could describe Smirnoff Ice as the equivalent of a weak beer. That is a higher alcohol content than most "standard" beers in the UK.
(I note bizarrely that in the rest of the world Smirnoff Ice is made from vodka as you would expect, where as in the US it is described as being made from a "malt alternative")
Quote:
- Margaritas at restaurants a few times, couldn't seem to get any that were made strong enough to register at all. Didn't taste much alcohol in them, didn't feel any effect, didn't register a single point on the toy.
Surely if Margaritas aren't getting a reading you are getting ripped off ? A shot or two of Tequilla should get you a reading.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#254557 - 22/04/2005 05:36
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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Quote:
I haven't really had a chance to try the toy out seriously yet.
Hey tony, just keep an eye on your pants. (:
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#254558 - 22/04/2005 11:21
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
(I note bizarrely that in the rest of the world Smirnoff Ice is made from vodka as you would expect, where as in the US it is described as being made from a "malt alternative")
That's because many US states have strange laws concerning the sale of liquor and beer. For example, in NY you never see beer sold in a liquor store and liquor is never sold in a supermarket or convenience store (where you would usually buy beer). I don't know if that's true of all of NY, but it is around here.
In NJ, it seems anything goes. Beer and hard liquor can co-exist.
In PA I think you still have to buy hard liquor and wine from state-run liquor stores. Beer in 6-packs can only be bought at bars, but you may be able to buy cases of beer in supermarkets... I can't recall.
That's just the 3 states that are closest to me. There are 47 more with their own strange laws. In any case, it seems it's easier to sell a malt beverage (Smirnoff Ice is considered "flavored beer" in some states) than it is to sell a product with hard liquor in it.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#254559 - 22/04/2005 12:07
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
In PA I think you still have to buy hard liquor and wine from state-run liquor stores.
Yes.
Quote:
Beer in 6-packs can only be bought at bars
Yes, along with 12-packs, 40 oz bottles, "girlie drinks" like wine coolers, and a few other odds and ends. I'm pretty sure the rule is no more than 192 oz of product per purchase, but most bars/bottle shops are keen to look the other way when people buy a 12 pack, set it down outside (guarded by a friend, of course!) and buy several more. It's a rather ridiculous song and dance that I've participated in several times at around 1:50am when the beer's run out.
Quote:
but you may be able to buy cases of beer in supermarkets... I can't recall.
Nope, no alcohol in supermarkets, convenience stores, etc. The only place you can get cases of 24 is at beer distributors. The state stores only sell wine and spirits, no beer. As for the bottle shops, I'm pretty sure that anyone with a liquor license can sell carry-out beer.
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#254560 - 22/04/2005 12:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Surely if Margaritas aren't getting a reading you are getting ripped off ? A shot or two of Tequilla should get you a reading.
Well, yes. Call me Hemingwayan if you must (few have) but a good margarita is tequila, triple sec, and lime juice in a salt-rimmed glass. Long fruity drinks, that you're still OK to drive after, are all well and good, but they aren't real margaritas. Even sugar syrup emasculates a margarita.
Peter
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#254561 - 22/04/2005 12:22
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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enthusiast
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 335
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I noticed the liquor/beer thing in NYC and was really puzzled by it. You have to find specialty shops that sell Wine and Liquor, I just guessed it was some sort of ordinance that prevented the sale fo Wine/Liquor and Beer.
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#254562 - 22/04/2005 13:36
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I think the major point being that in most states, liquor is only available in state-run stores (that are not usually open late at all) whereas most states allow the sale of malt beverages almost anywhere.
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Bitt Faulk
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#254563 - 22/04/2005 14:00
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Surely if Margaritas aren't getting a reading you are getting ripped off ? A shot or two of Tequilla should get you a reading.
Agreed. I complained at that restaurant specifically. The waiter didn't speak english well, and didn't understand me when I sent the drink back asking for it to be made over again properly. It was at a Chevy's what did I expect, right?
Anyway, I rarely drink anything, and when I do, it's usually fruity drinks and stuff, so it's probably going to be a while before this new toy really gets its workout.
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#254564 - 22/04/2005 14:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Tony, you stated "I feel only a slight alcoholic effect in my head. In the past, that effect would have been enough for me to ask someone else to drive if possible. Now I know better." Um... if you can feel that the drink has had an effect on you then what difference does it make that a little machine has said you are legal to drive? If you feel an effect of the alcohol then don't drive 
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#254565 - 22/04/2005 14:13
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Probably because Tony thought that slight buzz, while not impairing, could get him arrested if pulled over.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#254566 - 22/04/2005 14:28
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Exactly. I'm trying to learn where the line between safety and unnecessary paranoia is drawn.
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#254567 - 22/04/2005 14:38
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Ah right. Gotcha!
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