#254508 - 18/04/2005 03:22
Toy for the 13 steppers
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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http://www.brookstone.com/shop/product.asp?product_code=446344Just picked one up. Anyone remember the URL to the internet story by the guy who got one of those and tried to see how high he could make it go?
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#254509 - 18/04/2005 03:34
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
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#254510 - 18/04/2005 03:53
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: Mach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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That's the one. I love this BBS. 
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#254511 - 18/04/2005 15:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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Just read that Tucker Max story. Owch. Owch. Owch.
-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?
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#254512 - 19/04/2005 01:14
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: Mach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Is that site for real?
_________________________
Brad B.
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#254513 - 19/04/2005 03:59
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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Quote:
Is that site for real?
Yep. Tucker is quite a character.
_________________________
Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#254514 - 19/04/2005 12:08
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I dunno about these electronic BAC deals. For one thing, I can imagine that one of their primary uses, despite warning labels to the contrary, is so people can go out, have a few, and then check to see if they're "legal" in terms of BAC. IMHO, if you need the assistance of an electronic device to tell you if you're good to drive, then you're not good to drive. The other thing is, part of the fun of tying one on is the idea of not knowing how intoximicated you really are. The last thing I'm interested in doing when I'm drinking is finding out how drunk I am ("Honestly, ossifer, I'm not as think as you drunk I am.")
Actually, I've seen a *public* electronic BAC meter (complete with disposable mouthpiece thingies) outside a pizza shop near my college campus. Other than petty bragging about who's the most inebreated, I don't get the point.
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#254515 - 19/04/2005 12:22
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
Other than petty bragging about who's the most inebreated
There used to be one of these in a pub I used to go drinking in. That's pretty much all we used it for.
_________________________
-- roger
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#254516 - 19/04/2005 12:27
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Where these devices could be useful are in the increasing number of jurisdictions that are trying to outlaw alcohol by legislating ridiculously low "intoxication" levels. In those cases, one may be legally "impaired" long before being actually impaired, and the only way to know is to test it. Prohibition returns.
Cheers
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#254517 - 19/04/2005 12:37
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
...legislating ridiculously low "intoxication" levels...
Yeah, but once you're over the limit, what are you going to do? Wait around for a couple of hours?
If you're going to drive home, don't drink.
_________________________
-- roger
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#254518 - 19/04/2005 13:02
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Wow, you think HBO's going to make a mini-series about this guy? Some of those stories are unreal.
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#254519 - 19/04/2005 13:23
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Where these devices could be useful are in the increasing number of jurisdictions that are trying to outlaw alcohol by legislating ridiculously low "intoxication" levels.
This is a bit of a slippery slope though, is it not? I dunno about the GWN, but here in the States, the typical legal limit is 0.10, though some states go lower, and some play games by having another limit (say, 0.08) beyond which the police have discretion in declaring you impaired. Thing is, none of it means anything, because alcohol affects people differently, and everyone's ability to cope with intoxication in an, uh, effective manner is different. And it's clear you can't rely on common sense, because that's one of the first things to disappear when consuming alcohol. So, what, to you, would be a sensible limit?
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#254520 - 19/04/2005 13:51
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I dunno about these electronic BAC deals.
Well, I bought it for two reasons. The first reason was pure curiosity. I'd always wanted to know what "legally drunk" felt like. I suspect that I've never actually ever been anywhere near that intoxicated. The second reason is (hopefully) to help relax SWMBO pressure. She complains if I have a margarita or two and then drive, and I'm sure that I'm fine in those cases. It'd be nice to have a second opinion to back me up.
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#254521 - 19/04/2005 14:18
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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FWIW, here's a Blood Alcohol Content Calculator based on drinks, body weight, and time. Obviously it's an estimate, but it'll give you an idea. If you're the type that might have two margaritas with dinner, then I suspect that you've been legally drunk before. It's not very drunk at all.
Edited by wfaulk (19/04/2005 14:20)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#254522 - 19/04/2005 17:38
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: wfaulk]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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according to the calculator above, I can have 3 import beers in 1 hour and have a BAC of (only) .04.
no chance in hell I can drive after that. and don't get me wrong, I can drink like a fish. but beer puts me down, and fast.
even if it's right and I'm only 'half drunk', I know myself well enough to know that aint gonna fly.
I think such a device will only back up people that are unsure and give them a false sense of capability.
if I'm 50% drunk and I run someone over, they're still gonna be 100% dead.
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#254523 - 19/04/2005 17:56
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I'm far from a teetotaler, but I have to agree with Bitt's assessment that, unless you your dinner is 3+ hours long, or unless those margaritas are exceptionally weak, you've, at least for a time, crossed 0.8, which is fast becoming the new national standard for legally intoxicated. Now, by the time you've finished the meal, hit the road, etc. I seriously doubt you're *signficantly* impaired when you drive, but at the same time, you never really know how strong they're mixing them, and it's a non-arguable fact that impairdness begins with the first drink. Having a device that proves you're at a certain BAC seems to just be a false sense of security. That's not to say you should call a cab if you have a single beer with dinner, but know that, even with a single beer, you're partially impaired (and the law recognizes this, by allowing you to have > 0 BAC.)
Edit: Incidentally, my new avatar has nothing to do with this discussion, but it is remarkably appropriate.
Edited by tonyc (19/04/2005 17:57)
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#254524 - 19/04/2005 18:05
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
Having a device that proves you're at a certain BAC seems to just be a false sense of security.
Maybe they made the device with the intention of selling it in Montana. You could check your BAC between beers to see if you should pull over.
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#254525 - 19/04/2005 18:08
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Wow. Now *that's* a little bit crazy.
(tonyc types "montana real estate" into his google toolbar)
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#254526 - 19/04/2005 18:30
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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You've got until Oct. 1 to take advantage of it! I think I'm up for a road trip.
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#254527 - 19/04/2005 19:25
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
0.8, which is fast becoming the new national standard for legally intoxicated
I think in order to get certain Federal funds for road repair, states are required to use the 0.8 limit and that's why it's becoming the standard.
I agree with Tony, I'd like to get one out of curiousity. I'm 30 years old and am not going to use it for bragging rights with my friends. I stopped that kinda stuff before I was even old enough to legally drink. The thing is, we can go on and on about 0.8 or 1.0 or 0.6, etc. But until you have some ways of measuring it, we'll never know how it feels. All of those estimates based on % of alcholol, body weight, etc are just guesses. And considering how expensive drinking fines are, simply knowing "I'm fine to drive" doesn't hold up too well in court.
Note, from what I've read, most of these are not accurate in cold weather.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#254528 - 19/04/2005 19:50
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
But until you have some ways of measuring it, we'll never know how it feels
Whah? You know how you feel at that moment. If you have any question about whether you should drive, such that you'd reach for a device to tell you what your BAC is, then you shouldn't drive. Not every time you blow a 0.4 will feel the same, because there are a lot of other factors that contribute to how drunk you feel.
Quote:
And considering how expensive drinking fines are, simply knowing "I'm fine to drive" doesn't hold up too well in court.
Neither does a BAC reading obtained on a $30 toy from Sharper Image.
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#254529 - 19/04/2005 20:23
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Quote:
A driver caught with an open container faces a $100 fine, and the offense does not show up on a person's driving record.
Wow, that seems entirely ineffectual. How often have you been pulled over and checked to see what you're drinking?
On a side note, I'm from Florida, where as long as I can remember, it's been illegal to have an open container in your car. Now I live in Louisiana, and only last year was an open container law put into effect. Then again, New Orleans still has drive-through daquiri shops. They give you a 32 OZ daquiri in a styrofoam cup with a lid and a straw. It's not considered "open" until the straw is inserted. Umm, what?
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#254530 - 19/04/2005 20:37
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
If you have any question about whether you should drive, such that you'd reach for a device to tell you what your BAC is, then you shouldn't drive.
So If I have two beers after having had a huge meal or with several glasses of water and I feel totally fine but wonder how close I am to 0.08 because 0.08 is such a low number, that means I'm suddenly not in any condition to drive regardless of the fact that I feel 100% sober?
Quote:
Neither does a BAC reading obtained on a $30 toy from Sharper Image.
(There are devices available for around $100-200 that are more than toys. Some even compensate for ambient temperature.) Are you proposing that if I ever have one drop of alchohol within a several hour timespan, I shouldn't drive because the accuracy of a handheld device isn't 100% and the fact that I'm even curious and want to quantify how much alcohol is in my system and compare that to the legal standards means that I'm shouldn't drive? Just like Tony Fabris, I'm curious.
The fact is, "0.08" is an abstract number. If I feel totally fine after only two beers during a hockey game but I then learn that regardless of the fact that I feel sober I'm in fact blowing a 0.07 it might open my eyes to how low the legal limit really is. (And would make that beer not worth getting the next time around). Or, I might blow on the thing and see I barely register on the scale. Then I'd know I was either being a little paranoid or there were other factors at play.
I don't binge drink nor do I ever drive if I feel that there is a real chance that I may have had too much to drink. But just because I want to compare what my sense of "fine to drive" is the legal definition of "fine to drive" doesn't mean I've automatically become legally impared. Curiousity isn't a good enough reason to call a cab.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#254531 - 19/04/2005 20:46
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
On a side note, I'm from Florida, where as long as I can remember, it's been illegal to have an open container in your car.
Wow, I thought that at least since the late 70's, open alcohol in a car was illegal in the entire US! I can only guess that states that still allow this have very low rates of alcohol related car accidents or the businesses that sell them have a strong lobby. Either way, it doesn't seem right.
It's funny you brought up Florida though. When I was there for my honeymoon, my wife and I couldn't get used to the fact that you could walk down the street with a drink and carry it from bar to bar. I guess it would keep people from finishing their drinks too quickly so they could leave, but it also seems like trying to control under-age drinking would be impossible. This was in Ft. Lauderdale, I'm not sure if it's a state-wide thing.
We only tried it once. The whole time we walked along the road watching the sunset, we couldn't relax because we thought we were breaking the law! 
_________________________
Brad B.
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#254532 - 19/04/2005 21:53
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
So If I have two beers after having had a huge meal or with several glasses of water and I feel totally fine but wonder how close I am to 0.08 because 0.08 is such a low number, that means I'm suddenly not in any condition to drive regardless of the fact that I feel 100% sober?
Wow. The fact that you think "with several glasses of water" changes your sobriety in any way, shape, or form tells a lot about your understanding of this issue.
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#254533 - 19/04/2005 22:01
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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ridiculously low "intoxication" levels.
So far as I am concerned, that is an oxymoron.
If you are gong to drive, there is no such thing as being intoxicated by a "ridiculously low" amount. If it is measurable at all, you have no business piloting a two-ton lethal weapon anywhere in my vicinity.
I have seen demonstrations put on by our local police department using volunteers: the volunteers drive through a course marked out by pylons, and their abilities are noted.
Then, they start feeding them drinks, and repeating the test. Long before the volunteers feel that they are impaired, they are running over pylons, and missing the course. The scary thing is, they are still well under the .08% BAC that would make them illegal to drive.
I have always thought it was the height of lunacy that that bars have parking lots...
Anyway, that's my hot button for the day, and I don't really expect much agreement. I don't drink at all, not because I have anything against alcohol, but because I just don't like the taste of it and the loss of control that goes with it. I have no problems whatsoever with other people drinking -- as long as they stay the hell off of any road with 100 miles of me.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#254534 - 19/04/2005 22:30
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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Agreed. 100% (or more).
_________________________
Donato MkII/080000565 MkIIa/010101253 ricin.us
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#254535 - 19/04/2005 22:30
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Ah, Doug, reason more for that Istria vacation! We have zero limit (0.00%, that is, anything over 50 ppm is illegal). Used to be 0.05%.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#254536 - 19/04/2005 22:38
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
Quote:
So If I have two beers after having had a huge meal or with several glasses of water and I feel totally fine but wonder how close I am to 0.08 because 0.08 is such a low number, that means I'm suddenly not in any condition to drive regardless of the fact that I feel 100% sober?
Wow. The fact that you think "with several glasses of water" changes your sobriety in any way, shape, or form tells a lot about your understanding of this issue.
Will you please get off of your high horse and stop being so condescending towards me?
_________________________
Brad B.
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#254537 - 19/04/2005 22:59
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Will you please get off of your high horse and stop being so condescending towards me?
I haven't meant to be condescending towards you before. I try to stick to the issues. The only gripe I have about your actions here on the board is that often times, when someone disagrees with you or points out a flaw in your logic, you take it as a personal attack, or say "why do I even bother?" implying that the rest of us aren't even worth your time in explaining your side of the story, or more perplexingly, state that a large group of people has a personal vendetta against you.
I enjoy hearing different points of view, and responding to them, because it sharpens my own knowledge of whatever is being discussed. That being said, it's a real downer when someone comes in who is more than happy to poke holes at others' arguments, but throws up his hands or runs away pouting when it comes back the other way.
In any event, I'm sorry to offend you. I was just pointing out your inaccurate portrayal of water as something that affects sobriety in any way. If you'd like to explain that, I'll be happy to continue our discussion in a non-adversarial manner.
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#254538 - 19/04/2005 23:42
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I'm not referring to any past debates or discussions. It doesn't make any sense to me to take that stuff into a thread that isn't referring to it. I havn't gotten into any of those topics in quite a while. And when I say "it's not worth it" I simply mean it's not worth carrying on a thread that for whatever reason ended up getting offensive to some or personal. And the reason it's not worth it is because I value what I take as good relationships with people here more than I value any "he said, she said" argument. We're all friend here. The empeg is why most of us joined, but it doesn't explain why we visit every day.
Regarding my understanding of the issue , I was under the impression that the rate at which alcohol is absorbed into the body is a direct result of the water content of the person. This is the main reason that women absorb alcohol quicker then men (assuming they weigh the same). Because of this, mixing non-alcoholic liquids in between alcoholic drinks reduces the rate of alcohol absorbtion. This is also why heavier people are less effected by alcohol. They have more blood and water in their bodies which helps dilute. In addition, the water not only dilutes the alcohol (giving your body more time to process it), water also helps the function of your kidneys and liver allowing them to filter the alcohol. The exception is carbonated non-alcoholic beverage which actually allow the alcohol to be absorbed quicker. A quick Google search seems to confirm my initial impression.
Once alcohol is absorbed into your bloodstream, no amount of water consumption will reduce your BAC. Water can only help prevent the rise of BAC, it can not reduce it once it's in your system.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#254539 - 20/04/2005 00:03
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
I can only guess that states that still allow this have very low rates of alcohol related car accidents or the businesses that sell them have a strong lobby. Either way, it doesn't seem right.
Actually, in the article it says:
Quote:
Montana has the highest rate of alcohol-related deaths, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
I guess it was more an issue of cultural change than strong lobbies, because it sure wasn't because of a low accident rate.
This all reminds me of an episode of "Crossballs" that was on Comedy Central about a year ago. They had comedians posing as people who would debate one side of an issue against an unknowing opponant on a fake TV talk show. This one episode they had a comedian saying "The solution is that people just need more practice driving drunk". When asked if he used the 1 and 11 o'clock positions on the steering wheel he said, "No, I use six o'clock... with my knee. I can't hold my burger and a beer in one hand!"
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#254540 - 20/04/2005 00:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
I'm not referring to any past debates or discussions.
I will take you at your word on that, but "please stop being condescending" certainly alludes to a perceived pattern, and not one incident.
Quote:
I was under the impression that the rate at which alcohol is absorbed into the body is a direct result of the water content of the person.
Yes, but the flaw in your logic is that the "water content of a person" dwarfs the quantity of water than a person could possibly suck down and introduce into their bloodstream for the ride home. Of course, all your points about heavier people and women of the same weight are true, but regardless of weight or sex, nobody can consume enough water to measurably change their BAC level, or, certainly, their ability to drive a car. They'd probably overdose on water first.
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#254541 - 20/04/2005 00:59
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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I was amazed--and appalled--when I first studied alcoholism professionally to discovered I'd driven"drunk", i.e.: 2 glasses of wine with dinner for my weight and size, many times,  not to mention that women, even accounting for wieght and size, are more affected than men. California's DMV helpfully supplies a chart with every renewal or other missive they ever send you, apparently in hopes of spreading the word. I think most people have no clue how little it takes to be legally drunk, so that really is helpful.
Edited by kayakjazz (20/04/2005 01:02)
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#254543 - 20/04/2005 01:33
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
I guess it was more an issue of cultural change than strong lobbies, because it sure wasn't because of a low accident rate.
Yikes. You'd think preventable deaths and accidents would be universally avoided in any "culture".
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Brad B.
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#254544 - 20/04/2005 07:38
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
an issue of cultural change
How do these open container laws work, anyway? Is having an open container of alcohol in the car actually an offence, even if there are other adults in the car, or does it just provide reasonable fourth-amendment grounds for stopping the car and testing the driver for intoxication?
If the former, I'd certainly not vote for it. This sounds like another one of Bitt's laws that attempt to reinforce already-illegal acts by making illegal acts that might lead to them that also make illegal the same acts that wouldn't lead to illegality, and the same "Bitt's Razor" applies: if the driver's intoxicated, prosecute him or her for intoxication; if the driver's not intoxicated (even if others in the car are), in what sense is he or she a criminal?
Or is the issue deciding whether a driver is intoxicated or not? In the UK at least, gadgets like the OP's, except properly calibrated and maintained, are widely used by the police force to measure intoxication, and their accuracy is widely trusted both by the drinking public and by the courts. I'm pretty sure there's no "open container" law in the UK, though in fairness I don't know what would happen if you were stopped while alone in the car and there was some beer knocking about.
I guess it's only the availability of simple tests for drunken driving that have caused it to be so intensively prosecuted. By any standards sleep deprivation causes more accidents and deaths -- a night's missed sleep worsens your driving to the level of an 0.08 BAC drinker -- but it's much harder to test for, not least because being stopped by the police usually causes enough of an adrenaline release to temporarily wake you up.
Peter
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#254545 - 20/04/2005 10:26
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: peter]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
How do these open container laws work, anyway? Is having an open container of alcohol in the car actually an offence, even if there are other adults in the car, or does it just provide reasonable fourth-amendment grounds for stopping the car and testing the driver for intoxication?
As far as I know, if I am stopped with an empty beer bottle in my backseat (passenger area), I can be fined for that. Even if I am dead sober. The laws vary from state to state, but I'm pretty sure this is how it works. I do think it was intended as the latter, and if I were coming home from the beach a day after a party with a six-pack of empty beer bottles I was intending to recycle in my backseat I doubt I would be prosecuted just for that. If I were stopped in the middle of the night for weaving on the road, passed a field sobriety test but had some empty bottles in the car, they would probably nail me. If I was stopped with an open beer in my hand, I'd definately get it.
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#254546 - 20/04/2005 11:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: cushman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I got stopped once for drinking an IBC cream soda. Looks just like beer, tastes exactly opposite.
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#254547 - 20/04/2005 12:08
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
I have seen demonstrations put on by our local police department using volunteers: the volunteers drive through a course marked out by pylons, and their abilities are noted.
The town I went to school in had this demonstration every year. They would take all the confiscated alcohol, bring it out to a large empty lot, and have volunteers from the area's schools (three colleges/universities) come in. You would run the course, then have a drink, rinse and repeat. It was shocking to see how few drinks would cause people to start taking out the cones.
Of course, it was also shocking at how much some people could drink and still run the course perfectly. That was probably a cultural thing (they weren't US citizens).
At work, we went out for lunch and some people had a beer or two to go with it. We got back to work and decided to see how bad having one or two drinks was for coordination. We took turns climbing into the simulator (helicopter) and tried to do a simple take off, fly a pattern, hover, then land flight plan. I don't think anybody managed to take off in few than three tries, and that includes people who flew the actual aircraft for 15+ years and have an insanely stupid amount of hours in that sim.
- Tim
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#254548 - 20/04/2005 12:36
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It's a state-by-state statute. In NC, it's illegal for there to be an open container of alcohol (which means one not sealed in its original container, so even transporting a corked half bottle of wine to a party or something) in the car if the driver has any detectable amount of alcohol in his system, even a level that wouldn't otherwise be illegal.
If I remember correctly, if it's found that the driver is not legally drunk, then it's basically the same as "public drunkenness" and is just a minor fineable offense. Mostly, it's intended to make drunk driving have a stronger penalty, and, as such, is absurd.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#254549 - 20/04/2005 13:23
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Some communities laws are a little more restrictive. 
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#254550 - 20/04/2005 14:55
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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When I was in Australia I was told that you were given 15 minutes by the side of the road to sober up before using the brethalizer, as it isn't acurate if you've just been driving along and drinking a beer. This along with the drive through liquor stores seemed very strange, but makes sense.
Matthew
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#254551 - 20/04/2005 15:07
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: matthew_k]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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Reminds me of the NC Outer Banks' Brew Thru drive in beer joints.  -jk
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#254552 - 20/04/2005 19:19
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Interesting to keep in mind, however, is that *any* detectable amount of alcohol in your system will be used to cast a shadow of guilt upon you, should you be involved in an accident. The 'legal limit' and the 'punishable limit' are not the same.
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#254553 - 20/04/2005 20:46
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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By any standards sleep deprivation causes more accidents and deaths
Ummm... I must question that statement.
A very quick google search brought up the following, which seemd to match up with my recollections:
Alcohol-related highway fatalities increased in 2002. Of all the deaths on the highways, alcohol caused 42 percent or 17,970 deaths, up from 17,448 in 2001.
Are you really suggesting that sleep deprivation causes [at least] 43% of all highway fatalities, leaving all other highway fatalities to account for the remaining 15%?
The above 42% statistic applies to the U.S., perhaps things are different in other countries.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#254554 - 21/04/2005 11:21
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Are you really suggesting that sleep deprivation causes [at least] 43% of all highway fatalities, leaving all other highway fatalities to account for the remaining 15%?
The above 42% statistic applies to the U.S., perhaps things are different in other countries.
I don't think 43% is all that implausible, but yes, I guess the thing I read was talking about the UK, where only about 16% of fatalities are drink-related.
Peter
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#254555 - 21/04/2005 23:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Don't want to jump into the debate side of the thread, but want to comment on this: Quote:
Just like Tony Fabris, I'm curious. The fact is, "0.08" is an abstract number. If I feel totally fine after only two beers during a hockey game but I then learn that regardless of the fact that I feel sober I'm in fact blowing a 0.07 it might open my eyes to how low the legal limit really is. (And would make that beer not worth getting the next time around). Or, I might blow on the thing and see I barely register on the scale. Then I'd know I was either being a little paranoid or there were other factors at play.
Exactly. That's exactly what I wanted to find out. Where am I with regard to alcohol paranoia. Am I too conservative when limiting my intake or not conservative enough?
My experience with the toy so far:
- Two weak beers at home (well, "Smirnoff Ice", basically soda-pop flavored beer), I blow an 0.02. I feel only a slight alcoholic effect in my head. In the past, that effect would have been enough for me to ask someone else to drive if possible. Now I know better.
- Margaritas at restaurants a few times, couldn't seem to get any that were made strong enough to register at all. Didn't taste much alcohol in them, didn't feel any effect, didn't register a single point on the toy.
- Shot of Cuervo at a comedy club last night: Didn't feel any effect from it, so didn't bother even trying to blow. I was also drinking soda pop and had just eaten a big meal, so that's most likely the reason it didn't affect me.
So, in other words, I haven't really had a chance to try the toy out seriously yet. But in the meantime, I'm demonstrating that this thing isn't turning me into Tucker Max or anything.
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#254556 - 22/04/2005 05:31
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
- Two weak beers at home (well, "Smirnoff Ice", basically soda-pop flavored beer), I blow an 0.02. I feel only a slight alcoholic effect in my head. In the past, that effect would have been enough for me to ask someone else to drive if possible. Now I know better.
At 5% alcohol I'm not sure that you could describe Smirnoff Ice as the equivalent of a weak beer. That is a higher alcohol content than most "standard" beers in the UK.
(I note bizarrely that in the rest of the world Smirnoff Ice is made from vodka as you would expect, where as in the US it is described as being made from a "malt alternative")
Quote:
- Margaritas at restaurants a few times, couldn't seem to get any that were made strong enough to register at all. Didn't taste much alcohol in them, didn't feel any effect, didn't register a single point on the toy.
Surely if Margaritas aren't getting a reading you are getting ripped off ? A shot or two of Tequilla should get you a reading.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#254557 - 22/04/2005 05:36
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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Quote:
I haven't really had a chance to try the toy out seriously yet.
Hey tony, just keep an eye on your pants. (:
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#254558 - 22/04/2005 11:21
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
(I note bizarrely that in the rest of the world Smirnoff Ice is made from vodka as you would expect, where as in the US it is described as being made from a "malt alternative")
That's because many US states have strange laws concerning the sale of liquor and beer. For example, in NY you never see beer sold in a liquor store and liquor is never sold in a supermarket or convenience store (where you would usually buy beer). I don't know if that's true of all of NY, but it is around here.
In NJ, it seems anything goes. Beer and hard liquor can co-exist.
In PA I think you still have to buy hard liquor and wine from state-run liquor stores. Beer in 6-packs can only be bought at bars, but you may be able to buy cases of beer in supermarkets... I can't recall.
That's just the 3 states that are closest to me. There are 47 more with their own strange laws. In any case, it seems it's easier to sell a malt beverage (Smirnoff Ice is considered "flavored beer" in some states) than it is to sell a product with hard liquor in it.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#254559 - 22/04/2005 12:07
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
In PA I think you still have to buy hard liquor and wine from state-run liquor stores.
Yes.
Quote:
Beer in 6-packs can only be bought at bars
Yes, along with 12-packs, 40 oz bottles, "girlie drinks" like wine coolers, and a few other odds and ends. I'm pretty sure the rule is no more than 192 oz of product per purchase, but most bars/bottle shops are keen to look the other way when people buy a 12 pack, set it down outside (guarded by a friend, of course!) and buy several more. It's a rather ridiculous song and dance that I've participated in several times at around 1:50am when the beer's run out.
Quote:
but you may be able to buy cases of beer in supermarkets... I can't recall.
Nope, no alcohol in supermarkets, convenience stores, etc. The only place you can get cases of 24 is at beer distributors. The state stores only sell wine and spirits, no beer. As for the bottle shops, I'm pretty sure that anyone with a liquor license can sell carry-out beer.
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#254560 - 22/04/2005 12:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Surely if Margaritas aren't getting a reading you are getting ripped off ? A shot or two of Tequilla should get you a reading.
Well, yes. Call me Hemingwayan if you must (few have) but a good margarita is tequila, triple sec, and lime juice in a salt-rimmed glass. Long fruity drinks, that you're still OK to drive after, are all well and good, but they aren't real margaritas. Even sugar syrup emasculates a margarita.
Peter
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#254561 - 22/04/2005 12:22
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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enthusiast
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 335
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I noticed the liquor/beer thing in NYC and was really puzzled by it. You have to find specialty shops that sell Wine and Liquor, I just guessed it was some sort of ordinance that prevented the sale fo Wine/Liquor and Beer.
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#254562 - 22/04/2005 13:36
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I think the major point being that in most states, liquor is only available in state-run stores (that are not usually open late at all) whereas most states allow the sale of malt beverages almost anywhere.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#254563 - 22/04/2005 14:00
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Surely if Margaritas aren't getting a reading you are getting ripped off ? A shot or two of Tequilla should get you a reading.
Agreed. I complained at that restaurant specifically. The waiter didn't speak english well, and didn't understand me when I sent the drink back asking for it to be made over again properly. It was at a Chevy's what did I expect, right?
Anyway, I rarely drink anything, and when I do, it's usually fruity drinks and stuff, so it's probably going to be a while before this new toy really gets its workout.
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#254564 - 22/04/2005 14:11
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Tony, you stated "I feel only a slight alcoholic effect in my head. In the past, that effect would have been enough for me to ask someone else to drive if possible. Now I know better." Um... if you can feel that the drink has had an effect on you then what difference does it make that a little machine has said you are legal to drive? If you feel an effect of the alcohol then don't drive 
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#254565 - 22/04/2005 14:13
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Probably because Tony thought that slight buzz, while not impairing, could get him arrested if pulled over.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#254566 - 22/04/2005 14:28
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Exactly. I'm trying to learn where the line between safety and unnecessary paranoia is drawn.
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#254567 - 22/04/2005 14:38
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Ah right. Gotcha!
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#254568 - 22/04/2005 15:51
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Probably because Tony thought that slight buzz, while not impairing, could get him arrested if pulled over.
Bzzzt. Wrong answer. A slight buzz == slight impairment. It does, as the mantra goes, begin at the first drink.
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#254569 - 22/04/2005 18:28
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
That's because many US states have strange laws concerning the sale of liquor and beer.
And I'm pretty sure that down here in crazy VA, laws like this differ by county. I could be wrong, though. It might have just been that way in the past.
_________________________
Matt
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#254570 - 22/04/2005 19:04
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Certainly so. In NC, there are some counties that are dry. Doesn't mean much, though, when the next county is a half-hour away, as it is in NC with our hundred counties.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#254571 - 22/04/2005 19:14
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Tony, did you wait 30 minutes before you tested? Even though you have alcohol on your breath, it's not in your bloodstream yet (or at least not fully). Sometimes, people will blow a higher BAC an hour after they leave the bar than they did at the bar.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#254572 - 22/04/2005 19:19
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yup. It's in the instructions.
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#254573 - 22/04/2005 20:41
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I'm trying to learn where the line between safety and unnecessary paranoia is drawn.
YMMV, but to me the line is crystal clear: If you can feel it at all, you are impaired and have no business driving. There is a good reason for the FAA's "12 hours from bottle to throttle" rule for pilots. I know of a pilot who stated definitively that he could feel the loss of reflexes and judgment from a single beer, and would never consider flying under those circumstances. And this was someone who, given the appropriate circumstances, could and did party and drink with the very best. Just wait 'til I get to be King of the World... there'll be some changes made, you'll see! tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#254574 - 02/05/2005 03:47
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Okay, so my first real test of the toy happened last night. It's not Tucker-Max-worthy, thank goodness. But it did teach me something interesting about the way the body reacts to alcohol.
Well, the first thing I really learned is this. When you buy a margarita in a restaurant, it's a completely different thing than when you buy one in a bar. In a bar, it turns out they actually put tequila in the drinks (go figure).
Two margaritas at a bar with a friend, and I was absolutely, unequivocally not going anywhere near a motor vehicle under any circumstances. This is in contrast to a restaurant margarita, where after two of them I'm wondering what all the fuss is about.
And I was only blowing a .04.
Off to the next bar across the street, where my BAC was up to .06 as the alcohol slowly absorbed into my system. The thing was, as my BAC was creeping up, the effects of the alcohol were decreasing. I really could only feel the effects of the prior drinks shortly after having drank them. I spent some time there listening to the band and not drinking at all, feeling myself sobering up by the minute.
Eventually I felt completely sober, but the night was young, so I ordered another one. I was blowing an .08 (legally drunk in CA now) but not feeling impaired at all. After drinking that third one, and feeling its effects peak and start to wear off, my BAC was up to .10.
After that, I stopped drinking alcohol and started drinking lots of water to get my BAC to come back down, it only did so gradually. By the time the band finished up and the bar closed I was still blowing a .08. I was feeling OK to drive, but my toy told me otherwise.
I ended up walking around the block for two hours and blowing every few minutes until the toy was reading a consistent .06. At that point, I had felt completely sober and totally unimpaired for over an hour (despite the toy telling me I was still drunk as a skunk) and so that's when I chose to head home. I felt completely fine and was also well under the legal limit, so no scolding.
Remember, the point in time when I felt the most impaired, my BAC was only .04. And yet I felt fine at .08 later on.
I think that's the problem with using BAC to judge your state of impairment. What the BAC seems to be telling you is how drunk you've been recently, but not how drunk you are right now. It's like a delayed "echo" of your alcohol intake and its effects. (Just like you said, Brad.)
Oh, and boy did I have a hangover this morning. I made the mistake of trying to take advil and drink water and tea right away when I woke up. It didn't stay in me for very long. But I felt much better after throwing up the water/tea/advil mix, and shortly thereafter was able to eat a bowl of cereal, take more advil, and get on with my day.
It's been a while since I drove the porcelain bus. Forgot what a pleasant experience that was...
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#254576 - 02/05/2005 11:39
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
I didn't drive the porcelain bus like you
I thought it was use the porcelain telephone?
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#254577 - 02/05/2005 12:14
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I prefer "pray to the porcelain god".
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#254578 - 02/05/2005 12:42
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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There's always "Technicolor Yawn".
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#254579 - 02/05/2005 14:12
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
There's always "Technicolor Yawn".
An Aussie friend of mine says he prefers "crying Ruth".
_________________________
Dave
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#254580 - 02/05/2005 15:03
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: webroach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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"I come from a land down under Where beer does flow and men chunder"
_________________________
WWFSMD?
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#254582 - 02/05/2005 16:33
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
An Aussie friend of mine says he prefers "crying Ruth".
Talking to Ralf on the big white phone.
_________________________
-- roger
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#254583 - 02/05/2005 17:01
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: Ezekiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Where beer does flow and men chunder
Thanks, always wanted to know what that line meant.
Great to know that such a prominent line in a popular song is about vomiting.
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#254584 - 02/05/2005 17:06
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Bitt Faulk
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#254585 - 02/05/2005 17:06
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I can't believe you didn't already know that.
Do you know what Vegemite is?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#254586 - 02/05/2005 17:19
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
Do you know what Vegemite is?
It puts a rose in every cheek!
Matthew
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#254587 - 02/05/2005 17:29
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Do you know what Vegemite is?
Yes, it's a concoction for spreading onto bread and eating. Tried some once, didn't care much for it.
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#254588 - 02/05/2005 17:34
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Meta-euphemism
"Jackson Pollack" ROFL
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#254589 - 02/05/2005 23:25
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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...reading a consistent .06. At that point, I had felt completely sober and totally unimpaired for over an hour ... and so that's when I chose to head home. I felt completely fine ...
It would be very interesting to me to see the results of objective tests of your reasoning skills and motor co-ordination under those circumstances.
Do you think it is possible (I really don't know; I'm not sniping at you here) that an insidious effect of being intoxicated is the incorrect belief that you are not?
I suggest this because I have seen the results of measured, progressive intoxicaton under controlled circumstances, and the results showed incontrovertibly that the people in the test were demonstrably impaired, even though they insisted that they were not.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#254590 - 02/05/2005 23:41
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Yup. I've felt fine before but was still obviously drunk to everybody else. It's very hard to judge it since by that point you're drunk
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#254591 - 02/05/2005 23:59
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Do you think it is possible (I really don't know; I'm not sniping at you here) that an insidious effect of being intoxicated is the incorrect belief that you are not?
Possibly. Which is why I gave myself a long period after having drank anything, and waited until my BAC was significantly under the legal limit, before driving. I did not drive "as soon as I felt fine".
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#254592 - 03/05/2005 00:31
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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I always feel just fine until I start to spill my martinis and start to fall over. That's usually about 5 martinis, which I'm sure is waaaayyyy over any legal limit. It seems that would be .18. Be sure to read the 'Mythconceptions' bit at the bottom - it's pretty funny. -Zeke
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WWFSMD?
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#254593 - 03/05/2005 04:47
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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... and waited until my BAC was significantly under the legal limit, before driving.
And there's the problem. I'm not trying to single you out nor direct this post directly at you... but this mindset we seem to have in America about "Well, I'm under the legal limit so I must be OK" is, frankly, appalling.
Just because a driver's blood alcohol content is less than some arbitrarily chosen number that is, in the opinion of a great many knowledgeable people, set far too high, does not mean that that driver is not impaired!
How much impaired? A lot? Just a little? From my admittedly hard-core perspective, any impairment is too much.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#254594 - 03/05/2005 06:54
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
How much impaired? A lot? Just a little? From my admittedly hard-core perspective, any impairment is too much.
Out of interest, do you take the same approach to tiredness and driving ?
If you have had a bad nights sleep the night before, resulting in you not being at your peak of alertness/judgement, would you phone in to work and say you had to stay at home because you had some impairment and therefore could not drive ?
There have been studies that showed that a bad night's sleep has a similar effect on peoples' driving to a couple of drinks.
P.S. this isn't intended to be some kind of dig against your stance on alcohol and driving (which I applaud you for, I have to have one drink when out socially, even when I am driving)
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#254595 - 03/05/2005 13:05
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, I've driven when I was sleepy, and felt orders of magnitude more impaired than I've felt after a drink or two.
I'm pretty sure it's against the law to drive when you're sleepy, too. The difference is that there's not a chemical test for it, so it's hard to prove.
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#254596 - 03/05/2005 14:46
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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addict
Registered: 27/12/2001
Posts: 441
Loc: Central, NC, USA
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Here is a article that was published a few weeks back concerning the breathalyzers the police use. My lawyer, Marcus Hill, purchased one and found out how unreliable these things are... Interesting read...
http://www.nc-dwi-defense.com/parts/Images/intox.pdf
Sean in NC
edit: no I have not used him for a DWI case...
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#254597 - 03/05/2005 22:16
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Out of interest, do you take the same approach to tiredness and driving ?
Believe it or not... I do, at least when it comes to myself.
When I was bringing the ShoWagon back from New Hampshire, there were times I put down more than 1200 miles in a day, and during those times I monitored my driving with an inviolable rule: The second time I inadvertantly touched or crossed a fog line or center line, the next wide spot on the shoulder was where I parked, climbed in the back and got into my sleeping bag.
I'd sleep until the cold woke me up, and 90 seconds after that I'd be rolling again.
For some unfathomable reason, people have told me they don't ever want to go on a long car trip with me...
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#254598 - 04/05/2005 05:55
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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I don't generally worry about crossing the lines -- I'm typically struggling with my concentration long before I get to the point of wandering over lines, so I'd have pulled off before your rule ever came into effect. I had a pretty scary experience several years ago with being tired -- I mistakenly took an overdose of cold medication, and, after a day of trying to stay awake at work, I went home. Halfway there, I pulled off into a golf-course parking lot to take a nap. I have a vague recollection of deciding to continue on home, but I don't remember if I'd taken the nap, or not. I woke up in bed with no memory of the remaining drive home.  You're not going to get where you're trying to go, if you're dead.
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#254599 - 04/05/2005 07:12
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: canuckInOR]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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After a couple of weeks of 20+ hour days driving, I remember waking up in the fast lane of the M74, seeing my exit and just managing to get off the road (3 in the morning, no other traffic thank god)...sadly I then managed to lose control up theexit ramp and take off my wheels by firing sideways over the roundabout at the top.
Since then I insist on work requirements taking 2nd place to my safety...and then some! It just isn't worth it otherwise.
On a similar note I overheard some truck drivers on a ferry to Ireland talking about how they register with multiple companies to get round the rest regulations. And they discussed how many of them had caused fatal accidents. Only one of the group hadn't!!!!!
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#254600 - 04/05/2005 07:56
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I very nearly nodded off on the M1 into London one morning a couple of years ago, I'd set off from Manchester at about 5AM. Since then I insist on heading down the afternoon before and staying over night. I don't think I actually fell asleep, I could just feel my head go, which was quite scary.
That stuff about the lorry drivers was quite scary. I remember nearly being run off the road in thick fog by a lorry driver who didn't like the speed I was doing. It's all very well for them they're unlikely to kill themselves. The lorry in question had one of those 'How's my driving?' stickers on the back so when I got to safety I ran it and complained. Never heard a thing back.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#254601 - 04/05/2005 12:15
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: frog51]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Yea, falling asleep at the wheel killed my brother. Nothing to mess around with. Howver I think he had a problem there. He fell asleep at a Star Wars movie one time. No way you could do that without having issues.
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#254602 - 04/05/2005 12:39
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I once had very minor dental work done. NO2 was involved. I waited a little while after, to make sure I was ok from the gas and proceeded to drive home. I felt great until all of a sudden I realized that the lane I was driving in closed in about 30 feet, and I was doing 40. It's a good thing I was driving the sports car, not the jeep, or I never would have been able to stop in time. Point is, I felt great, but it took me an entire 30 seconds or so for it to register what all those silly signs on the side of the road telling me to merge left really meant. Scared me so much I called my dad to come pick me up and take me home. Imagine if someone in front of me hit their brakes and it took me 30 seconds to realize what THAT meant.
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#254603 - 05/05/2005 01:46
Re: Toy for the 13 steppers
[Re: Redrum]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
He fell asleep at a Star Wars movie one time. No way you could do that without having issues.
Nowadays, I thought that was the preferred option.
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