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Because I'm really confused by the idea that not one, but at least 5 (who knows how many more in the back row, those are just the ones I can see) in a group of 34 decided that this was perfectly OK.

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Well, it is just Dubya after all. I mean, if it weren't for the White House staff dressing him, he'd show up to work barefoot in a NASCAR t-shirt.

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Well, it is just Dubya after all.

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Well, it is just Dubya after all. I mean, if it weren't for the White House staff dressing him, he'd show up to work barefoot in a NASCAR t-shirt.

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WTF? I'm curios as to where the concept of "This is OK" comes from.

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Or maybe in this instance it just shows the lack or respect that the Pres. has earned?

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Style changes over time, and Western society has been drifting towards more comfort and less formal dress for a long time, and I see nothing wrong with that.

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He said, good manners are just a way of showing other people we have respect for them. See, I didn't know that, I thought it was just a way of acting all superior.

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Back in the 20s and 30s a man out in public who wasn't wearing a hat was considered unacceptable, and dare I say you've surely worn outfits to work that back then would have been looked upon with the same disdain you're currently showing. Style changes over time, and Western society has been drifting towards more comfort and less formal dress for a long time, and I see nothing wrong with that.

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They were initially intened to cover shirt buttons, which were seen as utilitarian and unattractive.

By that logic I guess all my buttonless t-shirts now count as formal attire OK, I admit it, I'm one of the fashion-challenged, heathens that believes who I am should be more important that what I wear and that what I'm wearing should reflect the respect that I have for the people at whatever event I'm attending. To that end I'll dress nicely for a wedding or a nice restaurant. I'd also have no problem showing up to the whitehouse in a stained wife-beeter and the pair of shorts from the back of my closet with a whole in the croch and no left butt cheek (but I'd at least wear boxers underneath).

-Mike

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drifting towards more comfort and less formal dress for a long time

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Conditions have been "getting worse" since the fall of Puritanism.

Since early Egyptian dynasties, it would seem (I read somewhere about a lament on "how spoilt this new generation is" being one of the earliest deciphered texts).

There are two mechanism at work here, I think: one is a system of conventions, customs and taboos every society (and group within it) has, and behaving as a good antropologist does (i.e. trying to blend) is a good way to avoid being spotted as an outsiders by the natives and thus avoid tension or rejection. Other mechanism is a relic of the times when a strict dress code was just another way to erect a barier for those from a wrong social segment: the point being filtering people by their ability to afford an appropriate costume (which, of course, is now absurd: almost everybody can afford a barely conforming costume, unless they employ X-ray diffraction analysis at the door to check whether diamonds on one's cuff links are genuine). Funeral dress code belongs to the former group; fancy restaurant one to the later; I am not sure about opera - might be both.

I try (albeit not very hard) to conform to the former, although I think we should be above taboos without substance. The later I either ignore or avoid settings where they come into play.

Ah, yes, there is another mechanism, a variation of the first one: uniform. Business suit is just that, an uniform. In that regard, I might be considered an irregular.

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Or maybe in this instance it just shows the lack or respect that the Pres. has earned?

Starting with blowjobs in the oval office? Heh...at least she was wearing a dress and most likely appropriate shoes.

Not trying to start a partisan battle...just noting that the lack of respect for the office isn't solely Bush's doing.

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They were initially intened to cover shirt buttons, which were seen as utilitarian and unattractive

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The functionless, decorative, least comfortable of mens attire is of military origin.

The first recorded neckwear appeared in the first century B.C. In the heat of the day, Roman soldiers wore focale -- scarves soaked in water and wrapped around the neck to cool down the body. This completely utilitarian garment, however, never caught on sufficiently -- in either a practical or a decorative sense -- to become a standard article of menswear.

The origin of the modern necktie is traceable to another military custom.

In 1668, a regiment of Croatian mercenaries in the service of Austria appeared in France wearing linen and muslin scarves around their necks. Weather the scarves were once functional, as were focale, or merely a decorative accent to an otherwise bland military uniform, has never been established. History does record that fashion-conscious French men and women were greatly taken with the idea. The began to appear in public wearing neckwear of linen and lace, knotted in the center, with long flowing ends. The French called the ties cravates, their name for the "Croats" who inspired the sartorial flair.

The fashion quickly spread to England. But the fad might have died out if the extravagant, pleasure loving British monarch Charles II had not by his own example made neckwear a court must. And had the times not been ripe for a lighthearted fashion diversion. Londoners had recently suffered through the plague of 1665 and the devastating citywide fire of 1666. The neckwear fad swept the city almost as fast as the flames of the great conflagaration.

The trend was reinforced in the next century by Beau Brummel, who became famous for his massive neckties and innovative ways of tying them. In fact, the proper way to tie neckwear became a male obsession, discussed, debated, and hotly argued in conversation and the press. Knots and ties were named for famous people and fashionable places, such as the racecourse at Ascot. Since that time, neckwear in some form -- belt-long or bowtie-short, plain or fancy, rope-narrow or chest-broad -- has been continually popular.

The bow tie, popularized in America in the 1920s, may also have originated among Croatian men.

For many years, fashion historians believed that the small, detachable bow tie developed as one of the many variations on longer neckwear. But that was opened to debate by the discovery that, for centuries, part of the costume of men in areas of Croation consisted of bow ties. They were made from a square handkerchief, folded along the diagonal, pulled into a bow knot, then attached with a cord around the neck.

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Would you say, Jim, that there are no situations that require attire above a certain level?

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Should we expect to start seeing tank tops at weddings...or funerals?

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Sometimes I think how it's a shame you don't see as many suits any more, but then I think about how much I'd hate to be the one wearing them.

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I bet Dragi goes to the occasional funeral wearing a black turtleneck, sunglasses and a beret and the bereaved understand that it is his somber, formal attire.

Close enough.

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Ah, move to the country and you'll lighten up a bit

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disgusted by what i've met there.

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Hm. They must have had the wrong shoes.

Nah, it's more charming episodes like being referred to as "The nigger's kid" openly (confused the hell out of me, as I was used to my dad being mistaken for a dominican), the ever popular good hartland introductory conversation of:

"Where you from?"
"New York"
"Are ya a jew?" (I'll give you a pass on this one if the first thing that comes up in conversation when you visit a big city is "Do you live in a single or double wide?" or "who's the better lay, your sister or your cousin?")

Or my personal favorite "where you from?" "The Bronx" followed by a desperate clutching of one tacky wallmart naugahyde puse (as if I'd be caught dead carrying that! ). While I enlarge that piece of scar tissue on my inner lip by biting on it, as I am on their turf and feel I should respect their culture, no matter how strongly I feel they're gutter trash.

Yeah, rural America. Found it just so wonderful I could pee my pants with excitement waiting for a return visit.


And even the hillfolk (oh, the conversations I heard that day) at my cousin's wedding wanted to know WTF the dude in the cargo shorts was thinking. And I heard these same people talkin about how uppity the bride had gotten with education (prison hairdressing school and a GED).

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but it does strike me as curious.

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And men do it too, and it looks just as bad on them.

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I always ... no, never ... no, always, make sure my bra straps are hidden.