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#268452 - 01/11/2005 09:00 Windows XP System Restore rant
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
I'm a bit pissed that I am faced with having to reload the Wintendo now, all because of a fatal flaw in System Recovery. Right out of Microsoft's own tech database: "Windows XP includes the System Restore tool, but you cannot start the System Restore tool from a Recovery Console prompt."

Ok. So, when something screws over my system to the point where safe mode won't boot, I can't use the built in recovery tool to rollback to a working state. So, why did I ever bother keeping it enabled?

This all started because I wanted to install Visual Studio 2005 now that it is out. The installer told me that I had to remove .Net 2.0 Beta first (in an indirect way). So I hit uninstall for it, and the .Net 2.0 refused to be removed, also giving a not so useful error with a URL to Microsoft's site (mind you, a non clickable URL and lengthy). I pull up the URL and it explains that error means I have to uninstall WinFX first. Thinking back, I now remember I installed Microsoft Max to see some of the new stuff Vista might offer, and it required WinFX. So I remove Microsoft Max, then go to uninstall WinFX. It's uninstaller churns for a while, then asks for a .msi file long since removed by it's own installer. I hit cancel, the WinFX uninstaller errors out, but this time with a clickable URL. That leads me to a place where I can download the missing .MSI to then uninstall it properly. I download it, and find the Add/Remove programs control panel locked up from the attempted uninstall. So, I hit start, shut down, and choose to reboot.

Upon rebooting, the box just hangs on the Windows XP logo screen with the bar still animating. I reboot and try Last Known Good, same thing. I then reboot and try Safe Mode. Locks after listing the drivers loaded. I try Safe Mode with Command Prompt. Nothing. I then search on how to run the System Restore from the recovery console, and get that lovely message above that you can't.

So tomorrow, I get to spend several hours nuking Windows, reinstalling, and then reinstalling every other program, since the concept of self contained programs in the Windows world is a complete joke.

Yeah, I was running a beta product. And it worked fine. I didn't expect the uninstall to be the reason my system got screwed over. Thank god I don't trust Windows for anything critical, as I'll be able to do work tomorrow on my Powerbook running Mac OS X.

Now to wait for the Intel based Macs, so I can just play Windows games via Wine and be rid of Windows completely.

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#268453 - 01/11/2005 10:03 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: drakino]
g_attrill
old hand

Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
Try BartPE first - you create the CD then boot into a basic type of windows where you can rename the current registry files and then copy a set from a previous restore point. It might be enough to get you back into Windows to either fix it or do a repair install or whatever:

http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

I had loads of problems getting .net 2.0 off my machine to install something else, the setup kept bombing out and undoing the uninstall, can't remember how I fixed it but I recall it not being pretty!

Gareth

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#268454 - 01/11/2005 12:20 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: drakino]
Attack
addict

Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 599
Loc: Florida
You may also want to try the XP repair install option.
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Chad

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#268455 - 01/11/2005 17:26 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, man, I'm with you. All of that from their own products and installers. The OS is too dependent on intertwined libraries and installers and registry entries and such. Something simple like that bring the whole fricking house of cards down.

And yeah, I second the recommendation of seeing if Bart's PE can help.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#268456 - 01/11/2005 18:28 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: tfabris]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
The OS is too dependent on intertwined libraries and installers and registry entries and such.

That is true for nearly all mainstream operating systems in use today. I've got a mint copy of MSDOS 6.22 somewhere if you'd prefer that instead...

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#268457 - 01/11/2005 18:35 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: tman]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
Quote:
That is true for nearly all mainstream operating systems in use today. I've got a mint copy of MSDOS 6.22 somewhere if you'd prefer that instead...

I'm not saying you should, but you can drag the MS Office OSX install from one mac to another and it Just Works. How does it work? I don't know, because I've never had a reason to have to know. All I know is there is some magic where the "icon" is a actually a bunch of "files" and not just an "executable" and when you move the "icon" all the "files" necessary to "run" the "program" move too.

Matthew

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#268458 - 01/11/2005 18:59 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: tfabris]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Is Vista supposed to eliminate the registry dependency? What were the file types (that were dumped into the Windows directory pre-Windows 95) when you installed a program that were "cleaned up" by the addition of the registry?

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#268459 - 01/11/2005 19:20 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: drakino]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
I'm glad it was too late last night for me to start trying to recover, since apparently the system wanted to sleep off the problem. Tried booting it in Safe Mode, that worked fine now. So I rebooted to let it try a normal boot, and that too worked fine. Only change was I unplugged a USB data drive I had attached last night. That may have been causing it to hang (why I have no idea), or I did just enough boots for something in the RunOnce registry area to finally finish up something. Ahh, they joys of an OS with minimal logging, no easy way to tell what was occurring. The event log just has a big gap between the last clean shutdown, and the first boot into safe mode today.

Quote:
That is true for nearly all mainstream operating systems in use today.


It may be true, but other operating systems have much better resources available in the way of recovering from something like this. Linux, I boot to a install CD or Live CD and can get full access to the system, and make repairs. I can edit system configuration files with a text editor, not a registry editor. I can easily find a problematic library and restore it since there isn't 10,000 8.3 unfriendly file names hidden away in system32.

OS X, I'd boot to the install CD, and try to reinstall. Odds are it would work, allowing me to just boot up and have everything working again with no reinstall of applications. If that fails, I could do an Archive and Install, boot up, then move my Applications out of the archive folder to restore them. Two hours tops, most waiting for the OS to copy files off the DVD.

Where as Windows programs demand to throw crap in system32 that they can't live without, throw a bunch more crap in the registry, and so on. None of it easily repairable by hand, at least not in any time reasonable compared to just suffering through reloading everything. And using the repair option of Windows usually leaves the system in a similar state. These days from a failure like this, I would have booted to something that allowed me access to the drive, nuked the Windows and Program Files folders, then moved Document and Settings elsewhere. Do a reinstall, install drivers, then look through all my programs not installed into Program Files and reinstall each one.

Regarding BartPE, it might have worked to kick off System Recovery, but thats a test for another day. Back when I worked for Gateway, they had a product called GoBack they shipped on systems. That worked similar to System Recovery, but had so many more ways to recover. Boot up and hit space and it booted a utility instead of Windows. MBR or something else hosed? Boot off the GoBack CD, and have the same utility running to then revert the system, including the MBR back. After this incident, I'm probably going to see if they still exist and buy a copy, since System Recovery seems to be more for "oops, I deleted my recipes Word doc" instead of "oops, the OS broke by looking at it funny".

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#268460 - 01/11/2005 19:45 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: tman]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
Quote:
The OS is too dependent on intertwined libraries and installers and registry entries and such.

That is true for nearly all mainstream operating systems in use today.


I disagree. Any Unix is pretty solid in respect to this sort of thing. Worst case scenario is some important application library gets screwed up and a lot of applications stop working, in which case you've still got all of your data easily accessible. Or a system library gets screwed up and it won't boot, but I've never seen that happen from just installing an application. It's still very easy to get at your data, and probably very easy to fix.

But installing an application would never cause a problem like that. Applications are very self-contained. Then again, with a lot of the Gnome nonsense these days, they want you to have fourteen mututally incompatilble library versions at the same time. That's why I try to avoid that shit. But then again, that's just application-level stuff.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#268461 - 01/11/2005 20:00 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: wfaulk]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
But installing an application would never cause a problem like that.

.NET and WinFX aren't applications.

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#268462 - 01/11/2005 20:02 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: tman]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Good point. At the same time, installing the equivalent under a Unix wouldn't cause the OS to fail.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#268463 - 01/11/2005 20:06 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: wfaulk]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
Good point. At the same time, installing the equivalent under a Unix wouldn't cause the OS to fail.

True. An equivalent for UNIX would be an X or GNOME library as you previously mentioned. Windows has the OS and GUI bolted together so you can't get one without the other.

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#268464 - 01/11/2005 20:43 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
Good point. At the same time, installing the equivalent under a Unix wouldn't cause the OS to fail.


No, but it could well cause GNOME or X to break, which if you weren't a Unix command line savvy person would leave you fairly stuffed.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#268465 - 01/11/2005 20:56 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: andy]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
True, but Tom's probably not a Windows idiot, but he was stuffed anyway.

Mmmm. Stuffed Drakino with a white wine sauce....
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#268466 - 01/11/2005 20:59 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: wfaulk]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
...and some fava beans and a nice Chianti. [/Lechter]

-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?

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#268467 - 01/11/2005 21:09 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
True, but Tom's probably not a Windows idiot, but he was stuffed anyway.


No, but he did install and then uninstall a pre-beta "replacement" for the windowing system on a machine that he clearly wants to keep running

("replacement" because Windows Vista apparently runs quite happily with WinFX removed)
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#268468 - 01/11/2005 23:47 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: andy]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
The only reason I uninstalled it was because Visual Studio 2005 wasn't smart enough to do an upgrade of .Net 2.0 Beta 2 to the final release. Thus I had to remove .Net 2.0 manually, then found I had to remove dependancies on it first, with that being WinFX.

Oddly enough, it's looking more like the USB drive is hanging the machine on boot instead of something with WinFX being uninstalled. I got it working again, but any time my drive is plugged in, it hangs on boot now. It hasn't ever done this before, and I've been using the same drive for many months.

So I suppose this is more a rant about not having enough information to solve the problem. While the whole text spewing that Linux does while booting might not be pretty, it at least lets me find the problem quicker to then fix it.

I suppose my time on Linux and OS X has really changed my expectations for computers. I expect certain things out of them now, and find more and more those expectations cannot be met by Windows. Especially when I thought a beta product hosed my system, but it turns out more to be a USB drive.

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#268469 - 02/11/2005 07:10 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: drakino]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
You can make Windows generate a boot log. It's not hugely useful because you just get a list of drivers loading. It doesn't tell you why it failed however but at least it narrows it down a bit.

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#268470 - 03/11/2005 00:27 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: drakino]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
With that much seriously hardcore beta software on there, you would be best off formatting and reinstalling. FDISK, man.

Seriously though, once you've rebuilt the system, make a Ghost image of it for future reloading. Stash that on a DVDR along with a trusty Ghost boot disk. Then you can try out all the risky software (WinFX, DOTNET beta, etc) and just reghost.

I actually have my Windows partitions set up so C:\ contains only Windows system files (apps on D:, storage on E: and F:). If I'm doing something risky, I'll make a Ghost backup of C:\ first.
_________________________
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#268471 - 03/11/2005 20:57 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: FireFox31]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
Seriously though, once you've rebuilt the system, make a Ghost image of it for future reloading. Stash that on a DVDR along with a trusty Ghost boot disk. Then you can try out all the risky software (WinFX, DOTNET beta, etc) and just reghost.

I actually have my Windows partitions set up so C:\ contains only Windows system files (apps on D:, storage on E: and F:). If I'm doing something risky, I'll make a Ghost backup of C:\ first.


I found that doing images or partitions also was more work then it was worth. The image of something like that is out of date so quickly on a Wintendo box. And partitioning, especially on a small laptop drive just ends up wasting space. One new patch for Windows and all of a sudden the c:\ partition isn't big enough. Or I install a new game, to find D:\ is out of space, but c:\ still has 2 gigs left.

Also, to me FDISK is an extreme solution. Why waste time trying to back up data, then fdisk, format and reload, then bring backup data back in when I can just nuke the windows folders from a Live CD solution? My primarially gaming system doesn't get the same attention I would give to a server. It's for gaming and having fun, and to me these days, staring at a format progress bar isn't fun.

Having tried it a few more times, it is definitly the USB drive hanging the system on boot now. I have no idea why, but honestly have no reason to put any more time into trying to solve it. Still irritates me that Windows likes to hide so much detail from even an administrator makind narrowing down a problem harder. Boot logging appears to give me the same list of drivers safe mode did, and the list is all the drivers pretty much.

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#268472 - 03/11/2005 21:02 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: drakino]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
I don't bother with the system restore, and disabled that service. I'll never use it and I know it. If my system is hosed enough to need it, I'd rather just reformat and start new anyway.

I'm curious, what is the term "Wintendo" supposed to imply? That's one I haven't heard before and I can't quite figure it out...
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Matt

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#268473 - 03/11/2005 21:05 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
That it's a gaming system only.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#268474 - 03/11/2005 21:13 Re: Windows XP System Restore rant [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
That it's a gaming system only.

Gotcha.
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Matt

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