#287420 - 03/10/2006 17:26
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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You didn't need to say RZ at the shell prompt?
Y'know, I used to have a batch file on this computer (work) that utilized FTP to make the empeg into a file taxi. That batch file apparently failed to make the transition when I got a new computer here, but I know I have it on my home computer.
Would it be easier, less complex, to use FTP for this? It seems like I could use that batch file (after a few modifications) to install fidsift.
Probably there is no way to actually run the fidshift.sh script through a batch file, because to execute commands on the empeg I guess I'd have to have hyperterminal running, and if I've gone to all that trouble, it's just a few more keystrokes to run it.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287421 - 03/10/2006 17:58
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Probably there is no way to actually run the fidshift.sh script
Just ftp it, chmod it, and run it, all from within ftp:
ftp some.ip.add.ress cd / site rw put fidsift.sh chmod 755 fidsift.sh site exec fidsift.sh ... site ro quit
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#287422 - 03/10/2006 18:58
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Just ftp it, chmod it, and run it, all from within ftp:I had already installed it the "hard" way with hyperterminal, but this would be useful for someone who hasn't done it yet. Just a few notes about doing it with ftp: You'll need to have ftp.exe on your computer, and in the same directory as the ftp.exe file, you'll need to have the fidsift.sh file. You will need to know the actual ip address of your empeg. This may change from time to time if you are using DHCP in your network connection and you change some piece of hardware or the way it is connected. To use Mark's batch file to run the fidsift script (not install and run) just delete the "put..." and the "chmod..." lines. It actually shouldn't hurt anything if you leave them in -- it'll just overwrite the existing fidsift file each time. Thanks, Mark -- this is pretty much how I remember my file taxi batch file working. I just added a song to my player to test to see if fidsift improved the database rebuild time. I was a bit disappointed -- it still takes fully one third as long as it used to, I was hoping for instantaneous. Now that all those fidsift directories are created, will subsequent running of fidsift go faster, or will it recreate them all from scratch? I rarely add more music to my player (other than "Car Talk" every week) since it has been a long time since Mozart had any new hits, so in any case I won't have to run fidsift very often. tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287423 - 03/10/2006 19:07
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Now that all those fidsift directories are created, will subsequent running of fidsift go faster
Yes. Pretty much instantaneous after the first run.
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#287424 - 03/10/2006 19:13
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote: You'll need to have ftp.exe on your computer, and in the same directory as the ftp.exe file, you'll need to have the fidsift.sh file.
Incorrect.
All current Windows systems already have FTP.EXE, and it's in the system folder, which is already in the system "path", so you don't need to be in the same folder as FTP.EXE.
You only need to open a command window and CD to whatever folder contains fidsift.sh. Then type FTP.EXE at the command prompt.
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#287425 - 03/10/2006 19:14
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote: You'll need to have ftp.exe on your computer, and in the same directory as the ftp.exe file, you'll need to have the fidsift.sh file.
More precisely:
ftp.exe is in your default path under Windows, so you can run while your current directory is anywhere. The fidsift.sh file needs to be in your current directory when you run the ftp.exe command. (Even that's not really true, but it's far easier for it to be that way, and people who know how to get around that problem have already stopped reading.)
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Bitt Faulk
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#287426 - 03/10/2006 19:27
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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#287427 - 03/10/2006 20:05
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: wfaulk]
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enthusiast
Registered: 11/06/2003
Posts: 384
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Quote: ...people who know how to get around that problem have already stopped reading.)
LOL. Well, we would have if that had not been at the end of your post!
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#287428 - 04/10/2006 17:29
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: Mataglap]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote: ...people who know how to get around that problem have already stopped reading.)
LOL. Well, we would have if that had not been at the end of your post!
Yeah. I was still reading, and I don't even use Windows!
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#287429 - 09/10/2006 23:38
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Just ftp it, chmod it, and run it, all from within ftp:
ftp some.ip.add.ress cd / site rw put fidsift.sh chmod 755 fidsift.sh site exec fidsift.sh ... site ro quit
Hmmm.... doesn't work.
Is it because some of the commands (like chmod and site exec) aren't native to ftp and thus ftp can't run them?
My old batch file had "literal site rw" instead of just "site rw", and adding that word made that command work, but none of the others did.
Maybe we really can't run this using ftp? More likely, though, is that I'm doing some bonehead thing that is incorrect and messing up the works...
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287430 - 10/10/2006 01:19
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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If CHMOD isn't native to the DOS FTP application, perhaps there is a similar command built into it that accomplishes the same task? Not sure.
Also: maybe SITE CHMOD would work?
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#287431 - 10/10/2006 02:35
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Stick "site" in front of chmod.
Oh, and apparently some windoze clients prefer "quote" instead of "site" everywhere.
Cheers
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#287432 - 16/10/2006 04:38
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Stick "site" in front of chmod.
Well, we're getting closer.
I have almost gotten this to work now.
It would appear that any tasks that are not native to the version of ftp.exe supplied with Windows XP must be prefixed with "literal site" before they will work. This is what I have come up with.
I have files called "fidsift.bat", "fidsift.txt", "fidsift.sh", and ftp.exe all located in a directory on my computer, "C:\_FTP"
fidsift.bat cd C:\_ftp ftp.exe -s:fidsift.txt
fidsift.txt open 192.168.0.101 cd /empeg/bin literal site rw put fidsift.sh literal site chmod 755 fidsift.sh literal site exec fidsift.sh literal site ro # quit
I commented out the quit command so the results of the ftp session would remain on-screen.
fidsift.sh (no, you don't want me to paste that file into this post, it'll mess up everybody's screen formatting that opens this thread! It's the file linked to earlier in this thread)
ftp.exe This is the executable copied from the windows system32 directory or wherever it normally keeps itself.
Here's what I see when I run the fidsift.bat file: C:\_ftp>cd C:\_ftp C:\_ftp>ftp.exe -s:fidsift.txt ftp> open 192.168.0.101. 220 Connected. User <192.168.0.101:<none>>: 230 Login okay. ftp> cd /empeg/bin 250 "/empeg/bin" directory changed ftp> literal site rw 200 Okay. ftp> put fidsift.sh 200 Okay. 150 Opening data connection. 226 Okay ftp: 863 bytes sent in 0.00 seconds 863000.00 Kbytes/sec. ftp> literal site chmod 755 fidsift.sh 200 Okay. ftp> literal site exec fidsift.sh 541 ERROR <rc=127> ftp> literal site ro 200 Okay. ftp> # quit Invalid command. ftp>
Clearly the red highlighted line indicates a problem. That step runs for perhaps two seconds, then shows that error.
Can anyone tell me what that error is about and how to fix it?
Also, by mucking about with this, am I at risk of corrupting some important files in my player?
The object of all this is to have an icon on my computer that I can click on and automatically run a complete fidsift, without having to go through the bother of hyperterminal and making a serial connection and remembering and typing in all sorts of arcane commands.
As I said before, it looks like I am almost there...
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287433 - 16/10/2006 06:29
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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One of the drawbacks of running the thing through FTP instead of at the shell prompt is that you don't see any of the text output from any of the commands.
All FTP is telling us is that the program returned an error. The shell prompt might have been filled with tons of diagnostic text, but we didn't get to see any of it.
So at this point it would be best for you to run fidsift.sh from the shell prompt (change to its directory and type ./fidsift.sh) and see if it gives any sort of output or reason for a problem.
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#287434 - 16/10/2006 06:51
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote: ftp.exe This is the executable copied from the windows system32 directory or wherever it normally keeps itself.
You don't need to do this. It'll run fine from exactly where it is.
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-- roger
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#287435 - 16/10/2006 07:06
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote: You don't need to do this. It'll run fine from exactly where it is.
We already told him (earlier in the thread). Not my fault he's still ignoring us.
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#287436 - 16/10/2006 10:09
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote: .. ftp> literal site exec fidsift.sh 541 ERROR <rc=127>
Since you put fidsift.sh into /empeg/bin, you will now also need to prefix it when running it as a command. So, this line instead:
literal site exec /empeg/bin/fidsift.sh
Expanded explanation for Windows users: Linux (and most other non-Windows OSs) tries to help prevent you from being tricked into running malicious copies of commonly named commands. Thus, by default, it will NOT automatically search the "current working directory" for commands, because some prankster might have stuck their own version of ls or something there. Thus, to run a command from any directory not on the user's PATH, it has to be prefixed with the full or relative directory path.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (16/10/2006 10:13)
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#287437 - 17/10/2006 03:51
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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literal site exec /empeg/bin/fidsift.shYes! I would not have figured that out on my own. Thank you, Mark. You have, then, had some experience with Linux? I can click on my handy little icon now and do a fidsift operation in just under nine seconds, from click to final screen refresh. I assume that after fidsift has been run the first time, it takes much less time for subsequent runs because it is just updating or adding to the initially creaded subdirectory structure? Since fidsift.sh is installed in the /empeg/bin directory, it is redundant to do the "put" and "chmod" steps. Is there any great benefit to leaving them in, or taking them out? One advantage to leaving them is that with the three fidsift.* files (.sh, .bat, and .txt) I have a self-contained setup system to install fidsift from scratch on any player. tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287438 - 17/10/2006 04:05
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Since there's no if/then functionality in the FTP scripts, if you want it to work both "from scratch" as well as working for later fidsifts, then you have no choice but to do the PUTs every time. They won't hurt anything. Oh, and: The only reason that I didn't suggest path-speccing fidsift before (The thing Mark showed you that solved your problem) is that you said there was a long pause between the time it tried to execute fidsift and the time it returned the error. I assumed that if it simply couldn't find fidsift then it would have returned the error instantly. Clearly, I was wrong.
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#287439 - 17/10/2006 11:33
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I assume that after fidsift has been run the first time, it takes much less time for subsequent runs because it is just updating or adding to the initially creaded subdirectory structure?
Just doing a (very quick) update. And it is even faster the second time, well, because the files have already been fidsifted, speeding things up.
Quote:
Since fidsift.sh is installed in the /empeg/bin directory, it is redundant to do the "put" and "chmod" steps. Is there any great benefit to leaving them in .. ?
Leave them in -- that way it will still work automatically after the next time you reinstall player software on that machine.
Cheers
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#287440 - 19/10/2006 06:03
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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... it will still work automatically after the next time you reinstall player softw are on that machine.
Just to wrap this whole thing up... I am attaching a zip file to this post that contains everything you need to set up a fully automated fidsift installation and operation. You will need to have your player set up to operate with an ethernet connection.
(1) Create a directory on your Windows computer: C:\fidsift (if you use some other directory, modify the fidsift.bat file appropriately.)
(2) Copy the attached zip file into that directory and unzip it.
(3) Edit the fidsift.txt file, changing Open <your.empeg.ip.addr> to the actual ip address that your player uses when running emplode on ethernet, so it looks something like this: Open 192.168.0.101 (your numbers will vary, of course)
(4) Double-click on the fidsift.bat file.
That's all you have to do. Much simpler than mucking about with Hyperterminal, serial null-modem cable, and arcane Linux commands. Run the fidsift routine after every re-synch if you like -- it takes less than 10 seconds to run, start to finish.
Fidsift has reduced the time it takes to rebuild the database on my player from 10+ minutes to 2:35.
The zip file contains fidsift.bat, fidsift.txt, fidsift.sh, and ftp.exe. Yes, I know that ftp.exe isn't required, but somehow it makes me more comfortable to have the complete package all wrapped up neatly, and I know that this particular version of ftp.exe does work in this procedure, so it eliminates one possible failure point.
Many thanks to Mark Lord for helping me sort this out.
tanstaafl.
Attachments
289080-fidsift.zip (155 downloads)
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287441 - 19/10/2006 13:03
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Wow! This looks so much easier than before. Could this be used on an un-fidsifted empeg? Or is it only for maintenance fidsifting?
I'm currently at 19,xxx on my 'big mix', while I still have about 40GB free (and more music underway).
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg) 10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#287442 - 19/10/2006 23:23
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Could this be used on an un-fidsifted empeg?
Yes.
It works both for installing fidsift, and for periodically updating it.
The first time it runs, it will take several minutes. After that, it's just a few seconds.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287443 - 25/11/2006 00:39
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: Robotic]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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OK! I know it's Friday night, but what the heck- seems like a good time to fiddle with my 2x60GB empeg. The goal: install maxfid and fidsift. The setup: WinME - emplode - player version 2.0 (developer?) + Hijack v464 Current player load: 20,500+ mp3 files, est. free space 36.2/111GB. The drives were installed and configured by Stu at Eutronix. I can't tell whether the developer version of the player software is loaded. Is there a quick check somewhere? I'll check the FAQ. It seems the way to proceed is to first load the MaxFID patch, then follow it up with tanstaafl's .bat file for Mark's FIDsift. Ah- but maybe first I'll throw over an album and see how long that takes, just to benchmark things a little. I'll do that and scour the FAQ for developer-player answers. I think there should be some mention of it in the boot log... edit: yes- it is the developer version. Funny thing- I tried capturing the boot log in Hyperterminal with the 'capture text' feature, but the resulting file is not a nice looking document. Can I assume that the .bat file may be run concurrently with emplode? I'll also assume that the safe bet is to run it with emplode not connected. It took about 12 and a half minutes to sync a 35.4MB album with the majority of the time spent rebuilding the database. update: When I tried to set the drives read-write for the maxfid prep, I got the message: EXT2-fs warning: checktime reached, running e2fsck is recommended So- I've started down that road... just so all the t's are dotted and so forth. It's been at it on the first drive for almost half an hour, but I am full of patience. update2: It took about a half hour per drive to do the check, then another few minutes to transfer and run the maxfid patch- many thanks to pgrzelak for the steps in this thread.Next step is the fidsift... ...hmm. I followed the instructions in the post above- created the fidsift directory on C:, changed the text file to my IP (192.168.1.4), and double clicked on the .bat file. This resulted in a Windows error: "Error Starting Program The FTP.EXE file is linked to missing export WS2_32.DLL:getnameinfo."
Edited by Robotic (25/11/2006 03:15)
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#287444 - 25/11/2006 18:05
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
Can I assume that the .bat file may be run concurrently with emplode?
Yes.
Quote:
...hmm. I followed the instructions in the post above- created the fidsift directory on C:, changed the text file to my IP (192.168.1.4), and double clicked on the .bat file. This resulted in a Windows error:
"Error Starting Program The FTP.EXE file is linked to missing export WS2_32.DLL:getnameinfo."
This would suggest to me that the FTP program on your computer may be broken somehow. Does it work in other circumstances?
Oh, wait -- I wonder if it might not have been a mistake on my part to include my ftp.exe file in the zip file that you expanded in your fidsift directory. I bet there is an incompatibility between that ftp.exe file and the one that is native to your Windows installation.
Try deleting the "new" ftp.exe file and then (as Tony and others have pointed out) the batch file will default to using your native ftp executable.
Quote: Ah- but maybe first I'll throw over an album and see how long that takes, just to benchmark things a little
The benchmark won't tell you much the first time you run it because the fidsift program takes quite a while to run. But, after that, since the fidsifted directory structure is now created, and the files are fidsifted, the next time you run it it takes but a few (~10) seconds to run. At that point you will see meaningful benchmark comparisons.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287445 - 25/11/2006 18:40
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Hi tanstaafl! Thanks for the tip- I removed the ftp.exe bundled in the zip file and the .bat file went to work. It seemed to occupy itself for about 15 seconds, then claim to be finished. Quote: User (192.168.1.4:(none)): 230 Login okay. fpt> cd /empeg/bin 250 "/empeg/bin" derectory changed fpt> literal site rw 200 Okay. ftp> put fidsift.sh 200 Okay. 150 Opening data connection. 226 Okay. ftp: 863 bytes sent in o.ooSeconds 863000.00Kbytes/sec. ftp> literal site chmod 755 fidsift.sh 200 Okay. ftp> literal site exec /empeg/bin/fidsift.sh
... I waited no more than half a minute... Didn't time it, though. It might have been merely 10 seconds. I was spacing out, thinking it might take many minutes to complete the task. I was surprised when the window continued with...
Quote: Connection closed by remote host. ftp> quit
C:\fidsift> C:\fidsift> C:\fidsift> C:\fidsift>
I'll run it again and see what happens. I just wanted to transcribe the text before doing that.
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg) 10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#287446 - 25/11/2006 18:56
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: Robotic]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Ah! I ran it about 5 times, each time it seemed to end on the same 'interrupted' note. It ran for various lengths of time- sometimes about a minute. Note: close the DOS window before trying another time. It didn't seem to like opening the connection twice. Just got what seems to be the correct exit: Quote: ftp> literal site exec /empeg/vin/fidsift.sh 200 Okay. ftp> literal site ro 200 Okay. ftp> quit 221 Happy Fishing.
C:\fidsift> C:\fidsift> C:\fidsift> C:\fidsift>
YAY!! Anything else to do?
Edit: Ok- each time I run the .bat file it sifts fids for exactly one minute before the connection is closed. It takes three minutes plus another 3-5 seconds to get the Happy ending. That is, I have to re-run the .bat file 4 times to completion of the task. I have done this three times now- the first time without much attention to detail, the next two checking the run times and number of times. 3:05 isn't 10 seconds, though. I wonder if there's something amiss. At any rate, I'm glad to see the Happy Fishing message and feel confident that the drives are once again set read only.
Edit2: The first time I asked for a 'big mix' (currently 16876 files) I got flashes of a 'no memory' error inside a rectangular box. The empeg kept chugging away at the task, though, and completed it. Touching a button made the error message disappear. I then rebooted the empeg through Hijack and asked for another 'big mix'. No problems or error messages. Each big mix playlist takes about 25 seconds to build.
Edited by Robotic (25/11/2006 19:20)
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg) 10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#287447 - 25/11/2006 19:33
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I wonder if there's something amiss.
It would seem so, but I am afraid I am way out of my depth here.
I just tested the fidsift.bat file on my player, and it ran in 9.7 seconds from the time I clicked on the shortcut to the batch file, to the closing of the DOS window. This is on a player with dual 80 GB drives and 16,438 fids.
A quick test to see if you really are properly fidsifted would be to add an album and re-synch. Your database rebuild time should be cut by about a factor of four, if my experience is anything to go by.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#287448 - 25/11/2006 19:37
Re: Plain english description of what the "maxfid" patch does?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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The zip file contains fidsift.bat, fidsift.txt, fidsift.sh, and ftp.exe. Yes, I know that ftp.exe isn't required, but somehow it makes me more comfortable to have the complete package all wrapped up neatly, and I know that this particular version of ftp.exe does work in this procedure, so it eliminates one possible failure point.
Well, this is what happens when I try to get too clever. Do NOT use the version of ftp.exe included in the batch file. It is a perfectly good file, but your Windows installation may not be happy with it as this version of ftp.exe may be calling for a different .dll file or something than the ftp.exe that came bundled with your particular Windows installation.
Once you have expanded the zip file, delete the ftp.exe file so that Windows will use the one that is native to your operating system.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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