#297279 - 19/04/2007 12:57
Professor's Requests
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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My sister-in-law (SIL) is working on her Master's and she had to submit a PowerPoint for one of her professors. She created it in Office 2007. If you try to open it in a previous version it won't open without downloading the compatibility pack found here. The professor responded to her first email with "I can't open the file. It says it isn't compatible with my version of Office. Please resend it in a compatible format." I was contacted and asked how she could do this. I gave her the link to send to the professor. After sending this link, the professor replied, "I don't have time to install the compatibility software. You need to recreate the PowerPoint in a compatible version." Well, my SIL only has Office 2007. I easily opened the ppt in Office '03 and saved it in that format but my question is why should it be the responsibility of the student to format a document in an older version of software simply because the professor "doesn't have time" (which only took me about 3 minutes, btw)? Dan (DWallach), you're a professor. Is this a typical response or simply a professor being hard to deal with?
_________________________
Russ
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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297280 - 19/04/2007 13:06
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Office 2007 is too new (and deliberately incompatible) to be a reasonable file format choice. The professor in this case is undoubtedly using OpenOffice, which is very compatible with most stuff from before 2007, and there's no good reason to require them to purchase a $500 (??) software package (MS Office) just to read a proprietary file format.
Cheers
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#297281 - 19/04/2007 13:09
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
...and there's no good reason to require them to purchase a $500 (??) software package (MS Office) just to read a proprietary file format.
You're right. That's why you can download PowerPoint Viewer for free.
The professor is definitely being a prick for no good reason IMO.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297282 - 19/04/2007 13:10
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Well, many IT departments lock down computers so end users can't install software. So what might seem like a simple install might require getting the attention of a busy, overworked and underpaid computer professional who's time could be better spent on tasks that don't involve fixing microsoft's purposeful incompatibilities.
Matthew
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#297283 - 19/04/2007 13:13
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
That's why you can download PowerPoint Viewer for free.
I wonder if that teaser permits the professor to do mark-ups and corrections ?
Cheers
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#297284 - 19/04/2007 13:14
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: matthew_k]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
Well, many IT departments lock down computers so end users can't install software. So what might seem like a simple install might require getting the attention of a busy, overworked and underpaid computer professional who's time could be better spent on tasks that don't involve fixing microsoft's purposeful incompatibilities.
Matthew
But for the common end user who just bought a new computer and has no access to a previous version, accept through someone as myself, has to suffer?
_________________________
Russ
---------------------------------------------------------
"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297285 - 19/04/2007 13:15
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
I wonder if that teaser permits the professor to do mark-ups and corrections ?
It allows printing and marking with the normal red pen. Does that count?
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#297286 - 19/04/2007 13:15
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
But for the common end user who just bought a new computer and has no access to a previous version, accept through someone as myself, has to suffer?
No, just install OpenOffice and use that. No $$$ cost, takes less than 3 minutes to setup.
Cheers
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#297287 - 19/04/2007 13:16
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: Tim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
I wonder if that teaser permits the professor to do mark-ups and corrections ?
It allows printing and marking with the normal red pen. Does that count?
That could work, so long as the marked-up copy can be saved so that it can be returned back to the student.
Just hypothesizing here.
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#297288 - 19/04/2007 13:18
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Mark, if the case were the professor not using $500 software, then why would they ask for PowerPoint? Why not a PDF which can easily be marked up with all sorts of tools, some of them free or close to it.
Submitting content in any MS format is a recipe for disaster. You want something that can be locked down and controlled like a PDF IMO.
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#297289 - 19/04/2007 13:19
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Usually, Office programs give you the option when saving to save in the older format. This may require selecting the "Save As" option instead of just "Save", though. I also don't know for a fact that Office07 retains this feature.
There are a variety of reasons why it might be difficult for the professor to view the file, but if the response was as curt as you suggest, it sounds like he's being a dick, especially if he specifically asked for a PowerPoint doc. And also especially if you were able to open it with Office03 without problems. That either means he didn't try at all, he has an ancient version of PowerPoint, despite asking for files in that format, or he has a problem with his computer, none of which would be your sister-in-law's fault.
My suggestion would be to delete MSOffice and just use OpenOffice anyway. Or, even better, make a PDF of the slides. Unless either the professor or your sister-in-law are in love with PowerPoint timewasters transitions.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#297290 - 19/04/2007 13:23
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Teaser?
It's not a stripped version of PowerPoint with a timer on it. It's a viewer. If someone made a PowerPoint 2007 viewer released under GPL, you would probably urge this professor to use that. But, if distributed by Microsoft, it's poison that's not to be trusted.
Office 2007 Home and Student contains PowerPoint and costs $127 retail. A far cry from $500.
Luckily I was able to type this post fast enough. Windows might blue-screen and suck the money from my wallet at any moment.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297291 - 19/04/2007 13:23
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Mark, if the case were the professor not using $500 software, then why would they ask for PowerPoint?
That part has me puzzled, too. Probably because most people have heard of "powerpoint" files, but it's very suprising how many are *still* clueless about "pdf" files. And most MS programs make it very difficult to create "pdf" files, although perhaps O2007 has fixed that (?).
Quote:
Why not a PDF which can easily be marked up with all sorts of tools, some of them free or close to it.
I don't have any tools that can mark up a pdf file, and don't know of any. I do know of lots of them that can create pdf, and powerpoint, and ..
Cheers
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#297292 - 19/04/2007 13:26
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Teaser?
It's not a stripped version of PowerPoint with a timer on it. It's a viewer. If someone made a PowerPoint 2007 viewer released under GPL, you would probably urge this professor to use that. But, if distributed by Microsoft, it's poison that's not to be trusted.
Maybe, but that's not what I meant. It's a teaser in the viral marketing sense, kinda like how Paypal lets you "send" money to people who have never previously even heard of the service. It's a way of getting them hooked.
Quote:
Office 2007 Home and Student contains PowerPoint and costs $127 retail. A far cry from $500.
Both of which are an even further cry from *free* and open: OpenOffice.org, which can save compatible powerpoint files if need be.
Cheers
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#297293 - 19/04/2007 13:28
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Office 2007 Home and Student contains PowerPoint and costs $127 retail. A far cry from $500.
Both of which are an even further cry from *free* and open
Take that $500 and use it to purchase (another?) empeg for yourself, rather than wasting it on unnecessary software which isn't even compatible with prior versions of the same thing.
Or take the $127 and upgrade another player with CF cards! 
EDIT: or in the case of a student, use the money for food and books, or just to keep the debt load down. No need to waste it hopping onto a software upgrade bandwagon!
Cheers
Edited by mlord (19/04/2007 13:30)
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#297294 - 19/04/2007 13:32
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Office 2007 Home and Student contains PowerPoint and costs $127 retail. A far cry from $500.
Both of which are an even further cry from *free* and open: OpenOffice.org, which can save compatible powerpoint files if need be.
For the casual user, Linux and most open source software is only "free" if your time has no value.
I could easily use OpenOffice.org (and have), but it's slow and the files it creates don't format properly when opened on a machine with Office.
Every free/open PDF creator I have used has also sucked far more than Adobe Acrobat. Even the low-cost alternatives are awful.
I have to support a small office of novice computer users. Introducing free alternatives such as OpenOffice.org, PDF Creator, and Thunderbird has just been met with disaster time and time again.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297296 - 19/04/2007 13:41
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Usually, Office programs give you the option when saving to save in the older format. This may require selecting the "Save As" option instead of just "Save", though. I also don't know for a fact that Office07 retains this feature.
It does, and it seems like this would be the easiest solution if the professor wants a PowerPoint 2003 file. Microsoft didn't throw backwards compatibility out with 2007, just as they haven't for 2003, XP, 2000, and the older Offices.
As far as the general discussion here, I don't think the professor is being a prick about it. He has a method that works for likely a big majority of his students, why does he have to change just for one or two people? Yes, it's a slight pain for the student to have to go to File, Save As and make sure it's compatible, but anyone upgrading to new software has this issue in any environment.
Quote:
I don't have any tools that can mark up a pdf file, and don't know of any.
Acrobat Reader (free from Adobe), FoxIt Reader (Free version), Preview.app in OS X.
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#297297 - 19/04/2007 13:44
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
I have to support a small office of novice computer users. Introducing free alternatives such as OpenOffice.org, PDF Creator, and Thunderbird has just been met with disaster time and time again.
Rob- what don't you like about PDF Creator?
I've been using it happily on Windows and Office for years.
Am I missing out on something?
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#297298 - 19/04/2007 13:46
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
Usually, Office programs give you the option when saving to save in the older format. This may require selecting the "Save As" option instead of just "Save", though. I also don't know for a fact that Office07 retains this feature.
To do 'Save As' in 2007, you have to hit the circle office symbol in the upper left, then Save As, and it gives an option for 'PowerPoint 97-2003 Presentation'. Still there, just goofy in how to get to it.
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#297299 - 19/04/2007 13:46
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
Usually, Office programs give you the option when saving to save in the older format. This may require selecting the "Save As" option instead of just "Save", though. I also don't know for a fact that Office07 retains this feature.
I just checked the copy we have here and you can in fact save a document in 97-2003 format. I think this may be the solution for my SIL moving forward.
_________________________
Russ
---------------------------------------------------------
"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297300 - 19/04/2007 13:47
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I'm on the professor's side.
It would have taken the student all of ten seconds to hit "Save As" and select a more compatible file format. The professor should not have to jump through hoops or install new software just to open the student's files.
In this day and age, a student going for a Master's degree, as part of the college education process, should have had enough computer experience to be able to comprehend this simplest of tasks. (I'm aware that the world is full of people with degrees who are stupid, ignorant, and unskilled. But I believe this is a bad thing and needs to be changed as we move forward.)
Microsoft's idiotic insistence on creating new and incompatible file formats with each new version of their office suite is a completely different rant, of course. But at least give them credit for giving the option to easily save as other formats.
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#297301 - 19/04/2007 13:47
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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It will often choke on files made with our manufacturing program and throw up log files all over the desktop.
It also chokes constantly when trying to convert a .ps or .eps file. Otherwise, for things like printing web pages and Office docs, it seems to do a good job.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297302 - 19/04/2007 13:53
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Microsoft's idiotic insistence on creating new and incompatible file formats with each new version of their office suite is a completely different rant, of course. But at least give them credit for giving the option to easily save as other formats.
For once, I'm not going to bash Microsoft over this on Office 2007 file formats. They moved to new extensions to represent the completely new format, and moved to an XML driven system. This should (in theory) make their files a bit more compatible with other non MS products. Yes, it caused them to toss out the old MS Office formats that really haven't changed all that much since the 80s, but Office 2007 can still save to a file format compatible with a 10 year old version of Office (97).
I have plenty of actual legitimate reasons to dislike MS's practices. This particular change isn't one of them though.
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#297303 - 19/04/2007 13:54
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
It will often choke on files made with our manufacturing program and throw up log files all over the desktop.
Heh, the computer equivalent of a cat with hairballs.
/me looks around for the digital Petromalt...
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#297304 - 19/04/2007 13:58
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Shheesh. Back off, dude. I mean it.
I'm not bashing anyone or any company here. Just reminding y'all that there's no need to spend hundreds of dollars when something pretty darned similar can be had for $0. Sure, a certain company makes a point of being incompatible with other such products, but we can't do much about it as long as everyone keeps buying their stuff.
Cheers
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#297305 - 19/04/2007 14:01
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
For once, I'm not going to bash Microsoft over this on Office 2007 file formats. They moved to new extensions to represent the completely new format, and moved to an XML driven system.
...and at least they are "real" (if very complex) XML files, unlike Apple's approach. I was so disappointed when opening several of Apple's XML based file formats (Garageband for example) to find that they were no such thing. A small bit of XML meta data and then a huge base64 encoded chunk of binary data does not an XML based file format make !
Edited by drakino (19/04/2007 14:02)
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#297306 - 19/04/2007 14:02
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
They moved to new extensions to represent the completely new format, and moved to an XML driven system. This should (in theory) make their files a bit more compatible with other non MS products.
I agree with you in theory. The only problem is, I know their track record. So we have historical evidence to indicate that the Office 2007 file formats are just another rung in the same old ladder; the files are not going to be any more forward- or backwards-compatible than any previous version was.
It may make them easier to parse by third party products, but that won't help someone trying to open an Office 2013 file in Office 2007. They'll still run into the same problem, mark my words.
I believe that MS does all this on purpose, as yet another planned-obsolsesence to make people upgrade the office suite.
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#297307 - 19/04/2007 14:08
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Shheesh. Back off, dude. I mean it.
Back off from what? I'm not allowed to my opinion that a lot of high-profile open/free software isn't as good as the paid counterpart?
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297308 - 19/04/2007 14:09
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
Dan (DWallach), you're a professor. Is this a typical response or simply a professor being hard to deal with?
Seems I'm a little late to the party here. Generally speaking, when I'm having students submit things, I require PDF or HTML, since those are universal and can be easily graded by grad students using whatever platform they've got (we've got a lot of Linux and Mac around here). PowerPoint is a bastard format. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the bullets and other dingbats change into random garbage when you move PowerPoint from one machine to another. Changes in fonts between Windows and Mac also cause layout hell. PDF guarantees that you see everything how it's meant to be seen, although you do lose any animations.
Furthermore, if the professor in question is in the Humanities side of the house, they may be running a University-administered machine. At Rice, anyway, that means lock-down mode, and the prof would be simply unable to install software without filing a bug with the help desk and waiting a few days for somebody to come around and do it. In a situation like that, it's eminently reasonable to ask the student to submit something in a more legible format.
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#297309 - 19/04/2007 14:27
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
the files are not going to be any more forward- or backwards-compatible than any previous version was.
Forwards compatibility just means making something stagnate. I don't think the people making the first versions of Word ever envisioned 2 mb sound clips or 10 mb movie clips being embedded in a document, nor had the capabilities of supporting such a system in any type of standard method. The Word doc format had to change to support it, or never add such features.
Quote:
but that won't help someone trying to open an Office 2013 file in Office 2007. They'll still run into the same problem, mark my words.
Will Office 2013 open a 2007 document? More then likely yes, just as existing Word 95 files open right up in Office 2007. And it will likely be able to save back to a format at least compatible back several versions.
And actually, taking a peek at the File Format Converter, MS did go one step further this time. Download and install that on Office XP/2003, and you can then open and save to 2007's file format directly in the Office programs.
Quote:
I believe that MS does all this on purpose, as yet another planned-obsolsesence to make people upgrade the office suite.
So with the above free download, the only reason IT would have to upgrade my Office install to 2007 is to use the new interface. This doesn't get pushed via Microsoft Update for some odd reason, so I think that should change. If it was pushed via MU, the professor in this situation wouldn't have had to do anything if his system is kept up to date.
So yes, MS doesn't have a great track record here. But looking at what they did for 2007 I think they did decently. What would you do differently when faced with a 20 year old format with tons of stuff cobbled on, and people screaming for better cross product compatibility?
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#297310 - 19/04/2007 14:35
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
the files it creates don't format properly when opened on a machine with Office.
Tying in with what Dan said, that's actually one of the biggest complaints with Office in general: that even the same version of Office on a different computer can end up being formatted differently. That problem only gets compounded when using a different version of Office, or using the Mac version versus the Windows version.
Of course, you could make the argument that the various Office products were never intended to be a digital display format, and using them as such is the fault of the user. (That ignores things that show Microsoft doesn't share that stance, like using Word as the text editor in Outlook by default.) But, in either case, the remedy is the same. Convince users not to do that. Of course, we all know that that's difficult for a variety of reasons of varying legitimacy, ranging from there not being an alternative to the user not wanting to change under any circumstances.
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I could easily use OpenOffice.org (and have), but it's slow
Really? I actually find the opposite to be the case. But, then, I tend to avoid the "keep this program running constantly in the background" accelerator programs, which exist for both Office and OO.o.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#297311 - 19/04/2007 14:36
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Back off from what? I'm not allowed to my opinion that a lot of high-profile open/free software isn't as good as the paid counterpart?
I don't agree with Rob's opinion, but I agree with this.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#297313 - 19/04/2007 15:03
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I don't think the people making the first versions of Word ever envisioned 2 mb sound clips or 10 mb movie clips being embedded in a document, nor had the capabilities of supporting such a system in any type of standard method.
And switching the documents to an XML format would potentially make the whole system capable of a certain amount of forward-compatibility. Current version of the software should (in theory) be able to open a future version of a document, while just ignoring the sections it hasn't got the capability of rendering. That'd be the right way to do it. I'll bet, though, it won't work that way when the time comes. Mark my words.
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#297314 - 19/04/2007 15:11
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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I think the Professor's mistake was not being specific as to which flavor of .ppt file he wanted to receive in the first place.
-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?
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#297315 - 19/04/2007 15:15
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
The professor in this case is undoubtedly using OpenOffice
Sorry, Mark, but I think this quote from your first post most clearly shows where your approach to this thread is coming from. I would never in a million years assume such a thing.
Lets get a little reason here:
- The professor shouldn't have been so curt about the situation, but this to me is the sign of a computer illiterate. The users in my office get frustrated because they don't understand technology, and I can even see them making the situation more difficult that it really is, just because they want to emphasize how inconvenient the computer is being to them.
- The student should have attempted to save to another format, or it should have been suggested to her, but its understandable that this wouldn't be the first thing that would come to mind. It's not her fault that everything changed with the new program.
- Which brings us to MS. They've attempted to start more or less from scratch, but should have recognized that not every Office user is instantly going to upgrade to 2007, so they should have emphasized the fact that if you send a 2007 file to a 2003 user, they're not going to be able to read it.
So basically, it's everyone's fault. But the professor can't help not being able to read it, the student didn't know about the compatibility problems, and MS is trying their best and from what I've heard has created a really good Office suite this time around. So some leeway could be given to all parties involved.
Oh, and I don't like OpenOffice either. I found it pretty clunky too. That doesn't mean I use Office, though. My uses are limited enough to get away with Google exclusively. *edit* I recognize that this means I can't make PPT presentations. That is A-OK with me. *edit*
Rob, I know you were talking about free PDF creators, but I can definitely recommend a free reader. FoxIt is really good. I don't know if the free Acrobat Reader is as slow as the full version of Acrobat, but FoxIt opens PDFs about 10 times faster than the latter.
Edited by Dignan (19/04/2007 15:19)
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Matt
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#297316 - 19/04/2007 15:27
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I could easily use OpenOffice.org (and have), but it's slow
Really? I actually find the opposite to be the case. But, then, I tend to avoid the "keep this program running constantly in the background" accelerator programs, which exist for both Office and OO.o.
Yeah. When running OO.o in Windows, it feels incredibly slow to me. I do always disable little programs that keep things loaded in memory though.
I personally don't use Word on a daily basis. But, whenever I have to call it up, it seems to open nearly instantly (Office 2003). This could be due to the fact that Outlook is constantly running on my machine. I assume its email formatting is using components common to Word.
Just to clarify things, I am not a denouncer of open source. I just usually gravitate what will do the best job with the least headaches. Perhaps I'm blessed, but paying $100 for the office suite that is universal throughout the world doesn't seem like a huge burden to me.
Installing Linux on any laptop I've ever owned has been a royal pain if trying to retain the functionality the stock Windows install gave you. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to administrate a web server running Windows.
Nero Burning Rom is now a steaming pile of bloated crap, but the free alternative (CDBurnerXP Pro) is unstable and lacks some features. While FireFox isn't totally open, I like that software a whole lot better than Opera or IE.
I don't just make blanket statements like free = good and pay = evil. The whole reason why we're all here is because of closed-source software!
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297317 - 19/04/2007 15:34
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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Quote:
They moved to new extensions to represent the completely new format, and moved to an XML driven system. This should (in theory) make their files a bit more compatible with other non MS products.
I would suggest that you have made the mistake of believing what the MS marketing dept say - and you are not alone by a long margin. Those guys are good at what they do.
There's actually a lot more to this than meets the eye - and it's not pretty.
There is an ISO approved document format called ODF.
Then there is Microsoft's 'OpenXML'.
Guess which one is fully documented and which one isn't (and has many legal barbs).
Guess which one provides a barrier to compatibility with non-MS products?
If you are genuinely interested look at these references on Groklaw
This is not simply 'anti-microsoft' (though I freely admit I am). It's very complex and not many people have the time and interest to follow through past the very expensive and very thorough spin that are put forward in the name of corporate profit.
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297318 - 19/04/2007 16:06
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
The whole reason why we're all here is because of closed-source software!
Though it is also unlikely that we would be here if Hugo et al had either had to create their own OS (or bought in a proprietary one) for their closed-source software to run on.
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#297319 - 19/04/2007 16:09
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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The Karma runs on a closed-source OS.
EDIT: I'm going to leave that statement, but I am not 100% sure all of eCos is closed.
Edited by robricc (19/04/2007 16:11)
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297320 - 19/04/2007 16:11
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I thought the Karma ran on eCos ?
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#297321 - 19/04/2007 16:12
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Yes, it does. I edited my statement.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297322 - 19/04/2007 16:12
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
The whole reason why we're all here is because of closed-source software!
The Karma runs on a closed-source OS.
Both statements are false.
I just do wish people would take time to understand what they're pretending to be experts on, *before* posting as if it was Satan's gospel.
I'm outa here. I'll return once the attacks stop.
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#297323 - 19/04/2007 16:17
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
The whole reason why we're all here is because of closed-source software!
The Karma runs on a closed-source OS.
Both statements are false.
I just do wish people would take time to understand what they're pretending to be experts on, *before* posting as if it was Satan's gospel.
I'm outa here. I'll return once the attacks stop.
I really don't think Rob was attacking you or even open source Mark. The reason we are here, on the empeg bbs, is because of a bit of closed-source software. The empeg player software is close-source and if it wasn't for that bit of software this community wouldn't be here.
That isn't any sort of comment on which is better, open source or closed source, it is just a statement of fact. The empeg code is closed source, we are all here because of that software.
Edited by andy (19/04/2007 16:20)
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#297324 - 19/04/2007 16:18
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I think I should take a vacation myself.
Like Darkstorm quitting making lenses, I'm not going to be blamed for Mark stopping development on hijack.
I don't know why such offense is taken, but I guess you have to be careful about what you say when you make a living off supporting "free" software.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297325 - 19/04/2007 16:21
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
I'm outa here. I'll return once the attacks stop.
They're not attacks, Mark.
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-- roger
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#297326 - 19/04/2007 16:38
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
I'm on the professor's side.
It would have taken the student all of ten seconds to hit "Save As" and select a more compatible file format. The professor should not have to jump through hoops or install new software just to open the student's files.
In this day and age, a student going for a Master's degree, as part of the college education process, should have had enough computer experience to be able to comprehend this simplest of tasks. (I'm aware that the world is full of people with degrees who are stupid, ignorant, and unskilled. But I believe this is a bad thing and needs to be changed as we move forward.)
Microsoft's idiotic insistence on creating new and incompatible file formats with each new version of their office suite is a completely different rant, of course. But at least give them credit for giving the option to easily save as other formats.
There are numerous people that are very intelligent that don't have a clue about computer software. I'm sure you're not able replace an engine in a car without learning a few things first and you can't learn those things unless someone teaches you. That doesn't mean you are stupid; it just means you're unskilled in automechanics. Most average users, or less than average users if you prefer, are unskilled in what can and can't be done with a computer. If you've never confronted an incompatibility issue with a certain type of document and you've always just pressed save, how would you know it could be saved in a different format?
Yes, she is going for a Master's degree (Speech Therapy) and she probably should know how to do something as simple as this, but if you've never needed to, you never knew you needed to, if that makes sense. And, on top of all of this, Microsoft decides to change the layout of the menu system, adding complexity to something that already isn't that familiar to a rare user of PowerPoint.
I've attached a copy of PPT 2007 & 2003. Would a normal user notice the .ppt vs. .pptx? Probably not.
Edit*:Oh yeah, Tony, I'm not attacking you.  I hope my assumption was correct that you can't replace a car engine.
Edited by Russmeister (19/04/2007 16:45)
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#297327 - 19/04/2007 16:38
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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And the 2003.jpg
Attachments
297974-PPT2003.jpg (165 downloads)
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Russ
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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297328 - 19/04/2007 16:51
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Ah, so the new version with the XML format has a "pptx" extension, whereas old PowerPoint saves as "ppt".
That explains a lot. The professor had Office pre-'07 installed. Your sister-in-law sent him a pptx file. Professor double-clicks on file. Windows pops up and says "I don't know what this file is". Professor is ignorant or lazy enough to not bother trying to open PowerPoint and selecting "File->Open". Professor gives up and says "it's not compatible".
This is actually a pretty typical example of two people unfamiliar with computers trying to do something vaguely complicated with computers. Neither one understands what the problem is and the one with the problem doesn't offer any sort of information in trying to solve it.
I think that the biggest problem here is the rejection without explanation. If you ask someone for something and then reject it without specifying why, you're at fault. Imagine a case where you order an album online. Then the album shows up and it's on vinyl. But you only have a CD player. You don't send it back and say "it doesn't work". You send it back and say "I don't have a record player".
Of course, I may be making facts up about this case.
Edited by wfaulk (19/04/2007 16:57)
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Bitt Faulk
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#297329 - 19/04/2007 16:55
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Ah, so the new version with the XML format has a "pptx" extension, whereas old PowerPoint saves as "ppt".
That explains a lot. The professor had Office pre-'07 installed. Your sister-in-law sent him a pptx file. Professor double-clicks on file. Windows pops up and says "I don't know what this file is". Professor is ignorant or lazy enough to not bother trying to open PowerPoint and selecting "File->Open". Professor gives up and says "it's not compatible".
That wouldn't have helped him, his pre-'07 copy of Powerpoint wouldn't have been open the file even via File->Open.
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#297330 - 19/04/2007 16:58
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
Ah, so the new version with the XML format has a "pptx" extension, whereas old PowerPoint saves as "ppt".
That explains a lot. The professor had Office pre-'07 installed. Your sister-in-law sent him a pptx file. Professor double-clicks on file. Windows pops up and says "I don't know what this file is". Professor is ignorant or lazy enough to not bother trying to open PowerPoint and selecting "File->Open". Professor gives up and says "it's not compatible".
This is actually a pretty typical example of two people unfamiliar with computers trying to do something vaguely complicated with computers.
Actually, when you open the file, you get the attached message. I just think it's a professor who is extremely lazy and didn't want to do any extra work. It's easy to say "hey student, if you want the grade, you make it where I don't have to do anything extra."
If you click yes, it takes you right to the download page for the fileformat executable.
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Russ
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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297331 - 19/04/2007 17:00
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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And I bet that he doesn't have the rights to install software on his computer, but doesn't want to reveal that to his students because he has a huge ego, which also explains the curt response.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297332 - 19/04/2007 17:08
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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At least the meta-objective was achieved, and your sister-in-law did learn an important lesson, albeit one on built-in obsolescence and the importance of open file-formats, rather than on the subject the professor was a professor of.
Presumably the university has student computer rooms available, well-stocked with PCs running the right version of Microsoft Office? Or perhaps "a PC with Office 2003 installed" was specified in the course-requirements document she was sent? If neither of those apply, then IMO the professor should be reminded that it's not fair to require his students to use specific proprietary software, let alone specific versions of software whose version upgrades are charged-for.
Peter
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#297333 - 19/04/2007 17:15
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: peter]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
Presumably the university has student computer rooms available, well-stocked with PCs running the right version of Microsoft Office? Or perhaps "a PC with Office 2003 installed" was specified in the course-requirements document she was sent? If neither of those apply, then IMO the professor should be reminded that it's not fair to require his students to use specific proprietary software, let alone specific versions of software whose version upgrades are charged-for.
Peter
Well, this is a distance education course where she only attends class one Saturday a month so the computer lab doesn't apply. I'll check with her on the syllabus, though.
Good point.
_________________________
Russ
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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297334 - 19/04/2007 19:03
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
There are numerous people that are very intelligent that don't have a clue about computer software.
I'm sorry for implying that she wasn't intelligent because she couldn't work PowerPoint. I see that the structure of my sentences said that. It wasn't what was in my brain as I was typing the words. I was kinda going for a separate rant about how education in this country is frequently sub-par, and that I know a lot of really dumb people with degrees.
With that said... as part of the steps towards the master's degree, she's taking a course where creating powerpoint files is a requirement of the course? I would assume that one of the prerequisites of the course is computer proficiency, then? Or that it's at least assumed if the normal procedure for this college's courses is to submit assignments as computer files?
It's true that I couldn't replace a car engine, but then again, I'm not going for a master's degree where one of the courses requires proficiency in auto mechanics.
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#297335 - 19/04/2007 19:23
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
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Using PowerPoint hardly requires a proficiency with computers. Ask anybody in any marketing department that.
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#297336 - 19/04/2007 19:42
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I see this as a great justification for requiring submissions in PDF. On a Mac it's painless to convert anything to PDF. On a PC, there's some modest amount of pain involved, but if you buy the full version of Acrobat, it goes back to being pretty much painless.
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#297337 - 19/04/2007 20:42
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: Tim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Using PowerPoint hardly requires a proficiency with computers. Ask anybody in any marketing department that.
Okay. Yeah. Good point. You've got me there.
All this time I was assuming the prof was someone who knew how to use computers and was rightfully stubborn about wanting his students to save their files in a more-compatible file format. But now that you mention it, maybe the prof is equally as computer-illiterate and just doesn't know how, himself.
God help our educational system.
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#297338 - 19/04/2007 20:46
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: DWallach]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
On a PC, there's some modest amount of pain involved
Try PrimoPDF. Its simple, free and just works.
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#297339 - 19/04/2007 21:41
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I'll give the full Acrobat a couple props over PrimoPDF. It plugs itself into Word, Excel, and PowerPoint and does a couple things better than the printer drivers. It will notice URLs and the the resulting PDF will be hyperlinked. It will also notice "goto" buttons in PowerPoint, along with some slide transitions, and reflect those into the PDF as well. Most importantly, you get corner-to-corner PDF from your PowerPoint, versus the apparently inescapable half-inch white margin that you get through the normal printer drivers.
Of course, for a student submitting something to a professor, PrimoPDF would be just fine.
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#297340 - 19/04/2007 22:11
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
the apparently inescapable half-inch white margin that you get through the normal printer drivers.
I find that this is usually an application-specific option, usually under File->Page Setup or similar. Of course, it's possible that this is an application-specific constant for PowerPoint (I don't have PP available here) instead of a variable.
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#297341 - 19/04/2007 22:27
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
I'll give the full Acrobat a couple props over PrimoPDF. It plugs itself into Word, Excel, and PowerPoint and does a couple things better than the printer drivers. It will notice URLs and the the resulting PDF will be hyperlinked. It will also notice "goto" buttons in PowerPoint, along with some slide transitions, and reflect those into the PDF as well. Most importantly, you get corner-to-corner PDF from your PowerPoint, versus the apparently inescapable half-inch white margin that you get through the normal printer drivers.
Incidentally, you know what else does a really good job of translating Office docs into PDFs? OpenOffice. Including links in the documents, PPT buttons, transitions, and corner-to-corner rendering. File->Export as PDF instead of File->Save as, though. You can export as Flash, too, which is pretty neat, albeit with fewer features.
Edited by wfaulk (19/04/2007 22:31)
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#297342 - 20/04/2007 03:26
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
I'm sorry for implying that she wasn't intelligent because she couldn't work PowerPoint.
Apology Accepted.
Quote:
I was kinda going for a separate rant about how education in this country is frequently sub-par, and that I know a lot of really dumb people with degrees.
Ditto.
Quote:
With that said... as part of the steps towards the master's degree, she's taking a course where creating powerpoint files is a requirement of the course? I would assume that one of the prerequisites of the course is computer proficiency, then? Or that it's at least assumed if the normal procedure for this college's courses is to submit assignments as computer files?
Well, with a Speech Therapist Degree, I don't think a computer proficiency course is required, unfortunately. I could be wrong. I would say that it's more of an assumption than anything. But you know what they say about people who assume? It makes an ASS out of U and ME. Don't get me wrong, I agree that she should know more about Micro$oft Office than she does but as your previous statement suggests, I think our educational system does a very poor job of preparing people properly.
Quote:
It's true that I couldn't replace a car engine, but then again, I'm not going for a master's degree where one of the courses requires proficiency in auto mechanics.
"Class, today's assignment is to create a CAD drawing showing the schematics of a Ford Pinto. Please email me your CAD drawings by the end of the week." 
_________________________
Russ
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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297344 - 20/04/2007 05:06
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Quote:
Quote:
That's why you can download PowerPoint Viewer for free.
I wonder if that teaser permits the professor to do mark-ups and corrections ?
Cheers
I was looking for that (the viewer) just a few days ago. It's just that a viewer only. Display the presentation, page back and forth, goto a specific page, nothing else.
I'm going to be using it for future presentations. I've always thought it awkward seeing sombody fumbling around in full PP in the middle of a presentation.
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#297345 - 20/04/2007 10:53
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: gbeer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That's why you can download PowerPoint Viewer for free.
I wonder if that teaser permits the professor to do mark-ups and corrections ?
Cheers
I was looking for that (the viewer) just a few days ago. It's just that a viewer only. Display the presentation, page back and forth, goto a specific page, nothing else.
I'm going to be using it for future presentations. I've always thought it awkward seeing sombody fumbling around in full PP in the middle of a presentation.
You probably know this already, but if you have the full PowerPoint program, you don't need to open it or download the viewer. Just right-click on any PPT file and click on "Show."
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Matt
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#297346 - 20/04/2007 12:16
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: gbeer]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
I'm going to be using it for future presentations. I've always thought it awkward seeing sombody fumbling around in full PP in the middle of a presentation.
My company converts the slide shows into PDFs for big design reviews. It solves the issue of fumbling with PP, and makes it easy to provide binders with the presentation to the participants/audience. It also allows us to provide a DVD with the presentations with no worry about something getting edited and causing all kinds of trouble.
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#297347 - 20/04/2007 12:30
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I just wanted to chime in about PDF... I don't use Acrobat to create PDF. It *can* create garbage where other tools won't. Normally with current document creation programs there will be some PDF option for saving already, so I use that. Adobe's software implements this in different ways for every application. To rework that PDF it's preferrable in my opinion to use free or other third-party tools which may work on their own or in conjunction with Acrobat.
My latest was taking a single 2.75" x 6" ticket I designed and laying it up 3x2 onto a taboid sheet (11"x17") - using Acrobat as many people suggested means telling it to print to its own driver with settings that N-Up the output as desired. What this did to the underlying artwork wasn't immeidately visible, but it sliced it all up into little puzzle pieces. This produced some spots where registration (of the pieces) was off and you could see either gaps or overlappy edges. Not nice.
I don't want to hijack this thread into an Adobe topic, because for the most part I think their software (all of it) is far less stable and well designed than MIcrosoft's (or anyone else's). I still use it, but I don't like it.
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#297348 - 21/04/2007 01:22
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Office 2007 can save in "compatibility mode" which will open in 2003, 2000, and previous. Save as .PPT instead of .PPTX. This discussion is pointless.
Everyone using 2007 should be saving in compatibility mode. Every computing administrator should find a way to make that the default for every machine they administer.
When distributing a Microsoft Office document for viewing (not editing), it should be saved as a PDF. Period. Every computing administrator should train their users to do this.
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