#301091 - 03/08/2007 21:22
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Quote:
And without HOA and COA, you get jerks like me who often neglect to mow my lawn, pull/spray weeds only once a year, and still haven't replaced my ratty front door, though a new one is sitting there waiting. Sure, all these neglegances come with good reason, but a HOA would hang me.
I'll take that over being told what color window treatments I have to get. I didn't even consider anything like a condo or townhouse to avoid a HOA.
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Matt
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#301093 - 05/08/2007 03:47
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: maczrool]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Quote:
Amazing how much they are getting for what used have a horse race track.
Yeppers. Jefferson Downs. At least the area never flooded during Katrina as far as I know. My wife's ex's place in there was high and dry, anyway. OOH, that reminds me, good news! Road Home sent us our award letter. Brings our total loss to only 30k. That's a more manageable debt, assuming we actually see any money.
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#301094 - 29/10/2007 01:51
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I find these HOAs that govern free-standing homes to be pretty creepy
Yeah, I used to feel that way ("Nobody can tell ME what to do with my own property..." and all that) but then I started looking around my own neighborhood.
The attached photo shows a pretty nice house and yard about a mile and a half from where I live. In today's real estate market, it would sell for about $350K. Now scroll down and look at the picture immediately beneath the first one.
That house is immediately next door to the first one. You could stand on the roof of the first house and easily hit the house next door with a rock. The picture of the second house does not do justice to the full impact of that place. I could have taken four pictures of that yard, all with near identical content without any overlap.
The irony is, I knew the previous owners of house #2, and when they owned it (and when the first house was built) it was a showcase. Not fancy or expensive (a double-wide mobile home) but immaculate, with a circular driveway outlined with white stones, everything neat as a pin.
I'll bet the owners of the first house wish that there were some kind of home owners' agreement in place.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#301095 - 29/10/2007 06:24
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4181
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
I'll bet the owners of the first house wish that there were some kind of home owners' agreement in place.
If they're the sort of people who get worked up about that sort of thing, then I bet they wish a whole range of things about the occupiers of house #2. But I still think that it'd be an unacceptable and alarming situation for them to have any way of enforcing those wishes against someone else's private property, so long as house #2's junk isn't causing them any actual harm (corroding cars leaching into the water-table or whatever).
Peter
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#301096 - 29/10/2007 11:01
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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I don't see a problem with that second house. The first one looks wretched -- cookie cutter character, oversized garage, and barren landscape. But each to their own (property).
Cheers
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#301097 - 29/10/2007 11:24
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
I don't see a problem with that second house. The first one looks wretched -- cookie cutter character, oversized garage, and barren landscape. But each to their own (property).
Cheers
Agreed! the second house looks a lot more interesting. I bet they have cool stuff in their back yard 
If they’re worried so much about the neighbor’s houses then they should buy a lot of land around their place.
I live in the country and suburban sprawl is a real issue out here. When a $500k house pops up near an old farmer’s place the taxes instantly go up for the old farmer. Sometimes so much they must sell their farm because they can not make the taxes (happen to a friend of my dad’s). There have also been cases of the farmer being ordered to sell his livestock (chickens in the case I know of) because the new neighbors complained.
Lots of these people say “they want to move to the country” however they bring their suburbian attitudes with them.
I that white stuff really lowers the resale value IMO
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#301098 - 29/10/2007 12:44
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
oversized garage
That also appear to be unoccupied by their vehicles. This has always puzzled me, the amount of people who get large houses with plenty of garage space, and still park every vehicle outside.
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#301099 - 29/10/2007 12:56
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Maybe they have five cars.
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Bitt Faulk
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#301100 - 29/10/2007 13:12
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: drakino]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
Quote:
oversized garage
That also appear to be unoccupied by their vehicles. This has always puzzled me, the amount of people who get large houses with plenty of garage space, and still park every vehicle outside.
I have a very anal neighbor (about two miles away) that had half his driveway paved but doesn’t park his truck (or drive from what I can tell) on the paved part. I guess he’s worried about his new truck leaking oil on the pavement???? Or maybe a rock or two might end up on the drive.
I’m very confused by this as well. Why spend the money and make things more inconvenient.
But it is his property, whatever.
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#301101 - 29/10/2007 13:40
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I am about to become a first-time homeowner, so I've done some thinking about HOAs. The house I'm buying is not part of a HOA, but having walked through some houses in similar situations as Doug's example, and thinking about how I'd feel if my own home's value declined, say, 25% because of a lousy neighbor, I have to say I now can see the case for their existence, though I'm personally willing to take the risks associated with not having one.
People in the US have been encouraged for many years now to buy more house than they need, and in many cases, more than they can afford, with the expectation that real estate is their best investment option. The sub-prime lending disaster is finally being recognized for what it is, but even outside of sub-prime borrowers, there are a lot of house poor Americans who have "bet the farm" on their house rising in value over time. In this situation, an HOA protects their investment to some extent.
I recognize that caveat emptor applies, and anyone who goes into massive amounts of debt expecting their home investment to be a "sure thing" deserves their fate. But with the situation being what it is, I don't see anything wrong with homeowners banding together to create some rules for their entire neighborhood, recognizing that they all want good resale value if they ever need to sell. As long as existing homeowners can opt out when new HOAs are established, I see no problem with them.
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#301102 - 29/10/2007 13:41
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Around here, garages are for winter use, and/or protection from vandalism.
In most neighbourhoods here in dry/warm times, there's no good reason to open/close a garage door every time the vehicle is used. And since most garage doors are motorized, it would also be a big waste of energy (and contribute to global frying) to use them purely for appearances sake.
Cheers
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#301103 - 29/10/2007 13:47
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: drakino]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
That also appear to be unoccupied by their vehicles. This has always puzzled me, the amount of people who get large houses with plenty of garage space, and still park every vehicle outside.
One of my friends has a rather large garage, I think it was called a 2.5 car garage or something (no clue where the .5 comes from). He parks his cars outside, and uses his entire garage as a workshop and woodshop. Since he doesn't have to move the various tables/tools out of storage to work on something, it looks a ton neater and more professional than it could. He also does a lot more projects with that setup than he use to, because of the lack of hassle with moving everything.
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#301104 - 29/10/2007 14:44
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Seems like house #2 is behind a fence, so that's something to add to the equation. I'm in the same camp as those saying, "Whatever- do what you want and take your risk." Not that I wouldn't enjoy living in house #1, but I'm not the sort of person to worry about the neighbors. That said, I was once offered $100 to paint my own garage door... so you might get an idea of how I roll from that.  /would always park cars indoors if possible.
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#301105 - 30/10/2007 01:20
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: Robotic]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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While I disagree with an HOA personally, I DO understand the point. My next door neighbor has let his house fall completely apart. Currently, I don't really give a shit, it only really matters when I decide I want to sell my house. We all know I work at city hall. This guy is breaking SEVERAL ordinances and building codes. I could make a few calls and force him to clean up his property. I choose NOT to because I'm more interested in not pissing him off than I am with him making his house look nicer.
The previous owner and he had a feud going before we bought the house. The kind of feud where they were pointing lights in each others windows to to be irritating and the like. Only once did I call code enforcement to come out. My wife was letting the puppies out in the back yard to do their business and a rat ran across the back porch, closely followed by 8 babies. THAT I cannot abide. I did a little investigating and it turns out that 4 people had made complaints against him in the last year. The inspector came out to make him cut his grass, etc, and he talked his way out of it every time. The next day I got the mayor to come to my house with the director of code enforcement and had them both peek over my fence into my neighbor's back yard. The inspector that let it slide 4 times was written up, the neighbor cut his grass for the first time in YEARS (it took 4 guys a full day to do it, with a bushhog), and the rat problem has since disappeared. 3 years have gone by and he still keeps his grass cut now. All that being said, he has no idea who called on him, so we still get along fine.
I still get 1-2 tiles from his roof in my pool every week, but I can deal with that. I KNOW his house has termites, but I can live with that too, so long as I keep mine sprayed. Basically, It's kind of a live and let live with me, until it starts to affect me personally. As an added bonus, my grass always looks great, in comparison to his. I'll try and get some pictures if I can do it without him seeing me. ;8^)
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#301106 - 30/10/2007 02:46
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
Seems like house #2 is behind a fence, so that's something to add to the equation.
Oh, yeah... that fence is all of 15 feet long, it is there for the sole purpose of supporting a gate so that he can lock it up to keep all the criminals from sneaking in in the middle of the night and stealing his valuable stuff.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#301107 - 30/10/2007 12:54
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/06/2000
Posts: 1682
Loc: Greenhills, Ohio
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I also agree, the first house has nothing interesting about it at all, it's so plain and stark looking and just plain boring. I have never lived anywhere that has a HOA and never will. I used to live in a suburban village that had too many rules and regulations of it's own. One night I had the police wake me up at 4 in the morning to move a car I had parked horizontally on my drive and stayed there until I got up and moved it. My drive was small as was my garage and my van wouldn't fit in it and there was no place on the street within blocks to park my other car so I had it at the end of the drive. It was out of the street and not sitting in the grass but it wasn't legal there. I also had them wake me at 6 one Sunday morning to make sure I had a garage sale sign on the corner down by noon or else I would be fined. I live out in the country now with a couple of acres. Less than 1 of those is mowed, the rest has been left wild for the birds and animals. My grass sometimes gets high because I haven't had the time to mow. Some of my neighbors houses are very nice and some older and run down and there are some trailers out here too. I really don't care what anyone else does with their house or land, I don't feel it's any of my business. Some people are happy with everything being dictated to them and others aren't. It's nice to be able to have the choice.
_________________________
Laura
MKI #017/90
whatever
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#301108 - 30/10/2007 13:04
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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The house I'm in the process of buying has no HOA, and Houston has pretty much no zoning either. My old house had a cabinetry shop next door and a artists' commune around the corner (for metal working / welding artists). This is the sort of thing that makes Houton quirky but cool. Sure, loony-tunes neighbors can and do happen, but you do have things like noise ordinances and whatnot to keep them at least partially in check.
How do they keep things from going completely bonkers? Deed restrictions. These were originally invented as a legal mechanism to keep black people from moving into white neighborhoods. These days, deed restrictions tend to say things like how far back your house needs to be from the street and whether you can have more than one dwelling on a given piece of property. When a large enough percentage of the people who own property on a given block agree to a deed restriction, it then becomes official.
In the Houston suburbs, it's a completely different world. They have the kinds of restrictive HOAs with big binders listing the restrictions on what colors you can paint your house and whatnot. I'm happy not to live out there, although the temptation is quite strong from a financial perspective.
I find it amusing that HOAs justify their rules on the basis of protecting resale value, when suburban real-estate doesn't tend to appreciate much, if at all. If there's always brand new construction around the corner, "used" houses fall in value just like used cars.
P.S. Lectric, good one with bringing the mayor out for a visit.
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#301109 - 30/10/2007 14:56
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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No one seems to have commented on the other aspect of HOAs: fees and assessments.
I'm currently a member of two HOAs (or HOA-like organizations), one for my townhome and another for the neighborhood, and I hate it. I pay huge amounts of money for no benefit, but at least I'm restricted in what I can do.
Anyway, recently the neighborhood HOA tried to sneak through repair and improvements to a kiddie park a mile away from my house costing $413,000. Fortunately, someone caught it and only after a big todo is there going to be a referendum.No one seems to have commented on the other aspect of HOAs: fees and assessments.
I'm currently a member of two HOAs (or HOA-like organizations), one for my townhome and another for the neighborhood, and I hate it. I pay huge amounts of money for no benefit, but at least I'm restricted in what I can do.
Anyway, recently the neighborhood HOA tried to sneak through repair and improvements to a kiddie park a mile away from my house costing $413,000. Fortunately, someone caught it and only after a big todo is there going to be a referendum.
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Bitt Faulk
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#301110 - 30/10/2007 15:11
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: DWallach]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
I find it amusing that HOAs justify their rules on the basis of protecting resale value, when suburban real-estate doesn't tend to appreciate much, if at all. If there's always brand new construction around the corner, "used" houses fall in value just like used cars.
I have a summer house that I intentionally keep, I guess you would say "low profie" just so the value doesn't go up as much and I don't have to pay more taxes. I keep it in good repair but I intentionally leave old cloths on the cloths line and the like to keep it on the DL.
I don’t know if it has helped but we’ve become known as the “cloths-line people.”
I kind of like that.
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#301112 - 30/10/2007 15:48
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: Robotic]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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I have property in Indiana, Ohio and Michigan. In the mid-west tax assessors sometimes do reassessments to see if you’ve done any improvements on your house that would make it more valuable thus raising your taxes. There was much concern (by the revenuers) in Indiana that people where buying old farm houses and fixing them up without paying higher taxes. I believe it was last year that every property in IN was reassessed. Even though I had built a garage since I bought the house my taxes went down. So IMO, if you’re not going to sell your house, the best thing to do is keep it looking “lived in.”
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#301113 - 30/10/2007 16:11
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
I find it amusing that HOAs justify their rules on the basis of protecting resale value, when suburban real-estate doesn't tend to appreciate much, if at all. If there's always brand new construction around the corner, "used" houses fall in value just like used cars.
I think you may be overgeneralizing "suburban real-estate," and at the same time overstating the depreciation of used houses. The one part of your analogy that holds true is the initial drop in value when the house goes from "new" to "used." There's a huge price premium in many cases for new homes with that "new home smell," and anyone who buys one and has to turn around and sell a few months later probably gets killed. But, once that happens, I don't know how much depreciation is happening in most markets. In most suburbs, you have urban sprawl sending people away from the city, but they also want to be close enough to the city to either work there or play there, so they settle down in the middle. There's only so much middle in a lot of cities, so suburban real estate often holds its value or appreciates.
Also, there are a lot of suburban areas that don't necessarily have new construction all over the place, and when they do, the new construction is often 125% - 150% above comparable homes that are only 10-15 years old. I think this huge price difference keeps the values of existing construction from falling too much.
I'd also be willing to bet that the used homes that *are* appreciating in value by virtue of being in desirable areas are the ones more likely to be covered by HOAs.
Finally, even if every real estate market in the country goes to hell and every home in America depreciates, there will still be homes that depreciate less. One can "protect resale value" and still end up losing money, just not as much as the other guy who didn't take steps to protect resale value.
Again, I don't personally favor HOAs, but I understand why they work, and understand why people might want some protection against a bad neighbor.
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#301114 - 30/10/2007 16:12
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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No one seems to have commented on the other aspect of HOAs: fees and assessments.
I'm currently a member of two HOAs (or HOA-like organizations), one for my townhome and another for the neighborhood, and I hate it. I pay huge amounts of money for no benefit, but at least I'm restricted in what I can do.
I did. At least in passing.
I'm in the middle of a house-hunt, now, and it's damn tough finding a place that fits our needs, that doesn't have an HOA attached to it. Some of them have fees on the order of $2-300/month! 
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#301115 - 30/10/2007 16:25
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Mine's $156 a month for one plus $360 a year for the other, so that comes to $186 a month. Of course, the pricier one is for a townhome, so there's some property insurance being paid out of that.
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Bitt Faulk
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#301116 - 30/10/2007 16:56
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: wfaulk]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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I have a really hard time coming to grips with paying somebody to tell me what I can and can't do. It just seems counterintuitive.
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#301117 - 30/10/2007 16:59
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: Tim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, it was not my decision to purchase this particular tenement.
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Bitt Faulk
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#301118 - 30/10/2007 17:26
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: Tim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
I have a really hard time coming to grips with paying somebody to tell me what I can and can't do.
We do it all the time. It's called government taxes and government regulations.
As such, a homeowner's association is really nothing more than a micro-government with its own taxes. That could be good or bad. At least in theory, a home-owner's association could be very effective even while the surrounding government was dysfunctional. The converse could also potentially be true.
In my new neighborhood, I'm not really concerned about derelict neighbors. I'm far more concerned about the nearby Texas Medical Center, which has been steadily building itself bigger, and taller, up into the sky. From my new front yard, I will see the neighbors across the street, and a huge, massive tower currently under construction a few blocks away. My fear is that, over the next decade or two, and due to the lack of zoning, more of my sky will be occupied by giant office towers.
On the flip side, our proximity to those very towers should keep our property values up, as there will always be somebody who works there who is keen to walk to work...
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#301119 - 30/10/2007 17:44
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: DWallach]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
I have a really hard time coming to grips with paying somebody to tell me what I can and can't do.
We do it all the time. It's called government taxes and government regulations.
However government taxes are usually (disclaimer) for the individual’s benefit and to provide protection from others. Not to keep us from doing what we want with our property.
You can argue that homeowner's associations protect our property value. However that comes at the expense of someone else’s freedom to do what they want with their property. While governmental laws like that do sometimes arise they are usually met with opposition, at least by me.
I think the majority of these people on the homeowner's association boards are people that get off on telling others how to live and enjoy the power trip. “Mind your own business” is a good motto, IMO.
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#301120 - 30/10/2007 17:56
Re: Homeowners' Association
[Re: Redrum]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Ostensibly, a HOA does beneficial things, ranging from grounds-keeping to major maintenance. The townhouse I'm currently renting is connected with five others under an HOA. The HOA recently dealt with some major roof repairs across all six units (which is to say, one of the neighbors spent an awful lot of time on the phone to make it all happen). For high-rise condos, this sort of thing is even more important, to pay for major mechanical upgrades and so forth.
As such, I'll stick with my assertion that a HOA is really just another smaller form of government. And all of the problems that can happen with an HOA (e.g., people who just get off controlling their neighbors) can also happen in larger governmental bodies.
Now, if you treated HOAs as nothing more or less than local governmental bodies, that could lead to some interesting fall-out, i.e., state regulation of what a HOA can and cannot regulate, how it must deal with elections, and so forth. I believe, for example, that New York has extensive regulations along these lines for how co-op boards are managed.
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