#301867 - 05/09/2007 16:53
The new iPods
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Admittedly, I've never been the biggest iPod fan, but is anyone else underwhelmed by the "new" product announcements today? Lets look at what happened: - iPod Shuffle: new colors
- iPod Nano: IMO, this was the biggest announcement, although the old insistence that nobody wants to watch video on a two inch screen is echoing in my ears.
- iPod: now the iPod Classic, and all metal. Seems this will probably be a weak seller now that there's the...
- iPod Touch: okay, call me cynical, but to me the only interesting thing about this product is that it tells us the cell phone part of the iPhone costs $200.
Don't get me wrong, despite my continuing dislike of the closed Apple system, iTunes, and lack of variety of format playback, I was absolutely prepared to get that iPod Touch. Then I saw that it was flash-based, and that was the end of that. Why bother at that point? I really don't understand the philosophy of portable video devices that have large screens and not enough room for a decent amount of video. Example: for the holiday weekend, I left my laptop behind and loaded up my Archos with the entire third season of BSG (which I'll post about in a couple days). I watched almost all of it in 20 hours of driving, in addition to a couple movies and a few vidcasts. I also had most of my music collection on there. And heck, we're just talking about my 30GB player, which is tiny these days. Hopefully the second generation Touch will have a hard disk-based option. So what is everyone else's thoughts?
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Matt
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#301868 - 05/09/2007 17:33
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
iPod Touch: okay, call me cynical, but to me the only interesting thing about this product is that it tells us the cell phone part of the iPhone costs $200.
I disagree. This would be an excellent product. Except for the fact that its maximum capacity is 16GB.
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Bitt Faulk
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#301869 - 05/09/2007 17:59
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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journeyman
Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 56
Loc: Las Vegas
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Storage size has always been a deal-breaker for me. With 160GB now, the iPod finally merits consideration.
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#301870 - 05/09/2007 18:21
Re: The new iPods
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
iPod Touch: okay, call me cynical, but to me the only interesting thing about this product is that it tells us the cell phone part of the iPhone costs $200.
I disagree. This would be an excellent product. Except for the fact that its maximum capacity is 16GB.
Oops, I must have read the Engadget live blog too quickly (I can only take so much "Jobs-speak"). My apologies. 16GB is approaching respectability, but I still don't consider it much more than a commuting-via-mass-transit device. Vacationing with it would get very limiting very quickly.
I also think that 160GB is excellent, but I don't want to watch video on that size a screen.
Oh, and I also liked Steve's claim that the Touch was the "First time EVER on a music player to have a browser built in." Um...no.
Quote:
Storage size has always been a deal-breaker for me.
My deal breakers, in order of importance:
- at least 4" screen (possibly a good-quality 3.5")
- at least 30GB
- plays back wide variety of formats
I wouldn't have thought that these would be hard to meet. I guess I'm in the minority. Trust me, I think the Archos products are less than perfect, and I'm not claiming that they're "better" than the iPod. I do, however, think that they're more suited for video playback, and have been for three and a half years.
Edited by Dignan (05/09/2007 18:31)
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#301871 - 05/09/2007 18:30
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
I watched almost all of it in 20 hours of driving, in addition to a couple movies and a few vidcasts.
Hang on, what?
Peter
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#301872 - 05/09/2007 18:32
Re: The new iPods
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
I watched almost all of it in 20 hours of driving, in addition to a couple movies and a few vidcasts.
Hang on, what?
Sheesh, I wasn't driving.
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Matt
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#301873 - 05/09/2007 18:45
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Well, I've been waiting for the Touch for quite some time, in fact, since my 5th Gen got pinched. 16GB is a bit of a pain, however if it's Wifi enabled then syncing stuff could possibly be trivial.
The thing that would hold me back from buying an iPhone is that it won't be available on Orange. Having had work-supplied phones on Vodaphone and O2 in the past makes me appreciate Orange all that more. The Touch seems to have everything I want from the iPhone just without the phone bit. I'm sure I can find something else to do that.
Think I might find it difficult to resist the urge on the UK release day.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#301874 - 05/09/2007 18:52
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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enthusiast
Registered: 17/08/2000
Posts: 334
Loc: Seattle, WA. USA
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, despite my continuing dislike of the closed Apple system, iTunes, and lack of variety of format playback, I was absolutely prepared to get that iPod Touch. Then I saw that it was flash-based, and that was the end of that.
My thoughts exactly... an iPhone with 160GB (and FM!) would be an instant sale for me. Apple Lock-In aside, I am admittedly envious of the smooth iPhone interface. With enough storage and an FM tuner I could be bribed into the iPod camp. But an iPhone without the Phone? 16GB? Wifi, but no radio on an audio device? WTF?
I'm sure this lineup is making a lot of people very happy... I guess I am just not part of Apple's target demographic. 
Is my money not good enough for you, Steve?
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Brian H. Johnson
MK2 36GB Blue, currently on life support
"RIP RCR..."
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#301875 - 05/09/2007 18:56
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Okay, for some reason I was thinking that Archos thing you're always going on about was huge. But it's only slightly bigger than the Touch, has a much higher resolution screen, and comes with a HD up to 160GB. Not bad at all.
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Bitt Faulk
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#301876 - 05/09/2007 19:16
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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The iPod touch looks cool, and with the WiFi allowing you to buy songs, it starts to add connectivity to music players in a possibly useful way. The WiFi in the Zune was just horribly limited, and no connectivity to the Zune marketplace was strange. On the iPod (and iPhone) side, I'd still like to see it extended to syncing with my computer (bonus points for over the internet, or auto syncing when I get home), and also enabled to sync podcasts directly to the device. That way, I could go on vacation, not haul around the laptop, and still enjoy the new release of a podcast while traveling. I would like to see an iPod touch with a hard drive. That seemed to be the logical step over keeping the iPod classic around, but I suppose until the price of the tech in the iPhone and Touch comes down, it's somewhat reasonable. The iPod line though seems a bit crowded now. The iPod Nano does video and is flash based. The iPod touch does video with a bigger screen but still uses flash. Quote:
call me cynical, but to me the only interesting thing about this product is that it tells us the cell phone part of the iPhone costs $200.
Actually, only $100. The iPhone dropped 33%, or $200 in price today, a mere 68 days after release. So existing owners have been paying nearly $3 a day for the privilege of being one of the first owners. For Apple, or really any company out there, such a rapid price drop is unheard of, and speaks highly of price gouging your willing early adopters. Up until today, I was very happy with my iPhone, and my overall experiences with Apple. This now has me shying away from ever buying a new Apple product again, for fear that it will drop in price so rapidly, and my willingness to buy something new was simply being exploited to pad the books at Apple.
Quote:
Oh, and I also liked Steve's claim that the Touch was the "First time EVER on a music player to have a browser built in." Um...no.
Not defending the statement, instead I'm curious what portable music player did have a web browser before the iPod touch. Admittedly it is a narrow definition, since there have been cell phones for ages that can play music and have a web browser along with some PDAs, but I can't recall a device that touted music playback as the main feature and had a browser in it.
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#301877 - 05/09/2007 19:38
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Not defending the statement, instead I'm curious what portable music player did have a web browser before the iPod touch.
The first that I'm aware of was the Archos PMA400. It had a touchscreen, too. It's possible that there were others, but none that I know of. That product was released sometime in 2005.
My Archos 604 has Wifi as well, and has Opera on it (and I've had it for a while now). Admittedly, browsing the internet is a horrible, horrible experience, but it's definitely possible. I mainly bought the 604 Wifi over the regular 604 because of the touchscreen, which makes media playback a whole different experience.
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Matt
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#301878 - 05/09/2007 19:40
Re: The new iPods
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Okay, for some reason I was thinking that Archos thing you're always going on about was huge. But it's only slightly bigger than the Touch, has a much higher resolution screen, and comes with a HD up to 160GB. Not bad at all.
Yeah, the new players are sweet. The only thing I don't like about them is the aspect ratio, which is something like 16:10. But yeah, the resolution is really attractive. The previous generation had a 160GB model, but it used a 2.5" drive, so it was horribly bulky.
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Matt
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#301879 - 05/09/2007 19:52
Re: The new iPods
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Quote:
Think I might find it difficult to resist the urge on the UK release day.
Well I for one won't be buying one, it doesn't do email! It doesn't have bluetooth! What's the point in carrying this in my pocket when I STILL need my PDA and mobile phone. I think the iPhone will be worth the wait!
Why only put 16Gb in? When the classic still has a HD in it I think Apple are off the mark with this one, why would I want a video player with only 16Gb ??? I could live with it if I only needed one device in my pocket.
Cheers
Cris.
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#301880 - 05/09/2007 19:55
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Why only put 16Gb in? When the classic still has a HD in it I think Apple are off the mark with this one, why would I want a video player with only 16Gb ??? I could live with it if I only needed one device in my pocket.
I'm guessing that powering the larger screen, with a touch screen and a hard disk and possible wifi would make the battery life too low to be marketable ?
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#301881 - 05/09/2007 19:59
Re: The new iPods
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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They sold plenty when the battery life was much much lower.
I would prefer the extra space and options to connect to the internet via my mobile phone.
Cheers
Cris.
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#301882 - 05/09/2007 20:04
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
The only thing I don't like about them is the aspect ratio, which is something like 16:10.
Two possibilities I see here. One, that's the size that was cheap at their vendor. Two, it's a middle ground between 16:9 and 16:12 (that is, 4:3). You never get full screen, but you get bigger 4:3 than you'd get on a 16:9 display and bigger 16:9 than you'd get on a 4:3 display. Plus maybe they use that additional space for controls.
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Bitt Faulk
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#301883 - 05/09/2007 20:06
Re: The new iPods
[Re: bootsy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Wifi, but no radio on an audio device? WTF?
It looks like the AM/FM radio is only compatible with the iPod Classic and iPod Nano. Odd that it doesn't work with the iPhone or iPod Touch. But there is a radio for iPods for those that want it. Personally, I'm happy without a radio in my portable player, haven't listened to radio on a frequent basis since I bought my first empeg in 1999.
iPod Radio Link
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#301884 - 05/09/2007 21:36
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Well I for one won't be buying one, it doesn't do email! It doesn't have bluetooth! What's the point in carrying this in my pocket when I STILL need my PDA and mobile phone. I think the iPhone will be worth the wait!
The iPhone is a likely to be non-starter for me. I don't want to have to move to an inferior carrier and I can't find anything to say it'll be definitely 3G.
I can't upgrade until May anyway.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#301885 - 05/09/2007 22:32
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
The WiFi in the Zune was just horribly limited, and no connectivity to the Zune marketplace was strange.
The WiFi in the Zune is useless. It really has the feel of a last minute feature that got bolted on without any integration with anything else.
I actually bought an iPod Video recently. I knew it was highly likely that they were releasing new models and was going to give my 1 month old iPod to a friend or family member. Now that its actually out, I'm not too sure. I mean the touchscreen aspect is neat but at the end of the day, it'll live mostly in my pocket with shuffle permanently on. The other problem is that it only has 16GB of storage.
I'd buy a iPod Touch + HD...
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#301886 - 06/09/2007 00:59
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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So is the series 5 smaller than the series 4 ? I saw a series 4 at walmart and it was pretty small. Not sure if it was pocketable or not.
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Matt
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#301887 - 06/09/2007 01:18
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Just as underwhelming as the last iPod debut. They're still milking the same old same old. The new touch model is a yawner because it brings nothing to the table we haven't seen in the iPhone. Apple is also (still) advertising not only HD-based players but also flash-based with 1-billion byte GB. So that 16GB of flash is actually 14.9GB. Whhy aren't we seeing class-action lawsuits against PC makers and HD companies to get this advertising deception stopped?
The UI on the nano and classic are still pretty much the same old shite with the back-asswords navigation using the wheel and misplaced buttons they've been using for years.
Hugo, get me a job at Apple and I'll fix this for you guys.
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#301888 - 06/09/2007 03:18
Re: The new iPods
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Apple is also (still) advertising not only HD-based players but also flash-based with 1-billion byte GB. So that 16GB of flash is actually 14.9GB. Whhy aren't we seeing class-action lawsuits against PC makers and HD companies to get this advertising deception stopped?
You missed the lawsuits apparently. I think the end result was simply the "1GB = 1 billion bytes; actual formatted capacity less." disclaimer stamped on everything now. Similar to the old monitor size lawsuits resulting in every CRT going to "15 inches, 14.1 viewable".
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#301889 - 06/09/2007 04:38
Re: The new iPods
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
So is the series 5 smaller than the series 4 ? I saw a series 4 at walmart and it was pretty small. Not sure if it was pocketable or not.
Basically, yes. Gen 4 was using two-platter 1.8" drives (as well as 2.5" drive models). Gen 5 only uses 1.8" drives, and only the 160GB model is a two-platter drive. So if you see the 604 in the stores, the Gen 5 players are all slimmer than that, except the 160GB model, which is only two-three millimeters thicker.
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Matt
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#301890 - 06/09/2007 08:02
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cris]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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I love the concept of the iPod Touch. I live in the Middle East and it will be a while before the iPhone is an valid option (even though they do have them at the local Apple store). What I was waiting for was an iPhone...without the phone, which is exactly what the Touch is.
The only killer is the 16GB size limit. My music collection exceeds that by several times so how do Apple expect me to fit any decent amount of video media on board?
I guess I'll be waiting for the next-gen, larger capacity players.
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#301891 - 06/09/2007 08:47
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cybjorg]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Quote:
What I was waiting for was an iPhone...without the phone, which is exactly what the Touch is.
I disagree, I think it falls short of an iPhone without the phone. Whith out an e-mail app or anything other than WiFi it's a pretty useless mobile internet device.
What I want is an iPhone with the phone module removed, and the ability to connect to my own mobile so I can choose my network etc... but keep all the functions. Now that would be cool!
Cheers
Cris.
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#301892 - 06/09/2007 08:56
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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I bought my first Archos product last September and I love my 604. Love it. Not too big at all, built solidly, nice clear crisp screen with a superb viewing angle. 30gb suits me fine and it plays all the files I've thrown at it. Its great to just record stuff off of my PVR card and transfer it across. I get about 5 hours video playback using earphones and lowest backlighting.
My only gripe is a lack of backlit buttons and the UI is a tad confusing but you get used to it pretty quickly.
The new ones look even better - higher res, slimmer and improved battery life. They may even have backlit buttons now.
Funny how it seems to get overlooked by many.
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#301893 - 06/09/2007 09:40
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cris]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
What I was waiting for was an iPhone...without the phone, which is exactly what the Touch is.
I disagree, I think it falls short of an iPhone without the phone. Whith out an e-mail app or anything other than WiFi it's a pretty useless mobile internet device.
I guess I should clarify: I'm not looking for any phone features whatsoever. All I want is a "large", touch screen, audio/video iPod. WiFi and internet connectivity would be a plus, of course. An e-mail app would be nice, as well. The Touch looks like it would scratch my itch except for the extremely low capacity.
Others, like yourself, have different needs/wants. I guess Apple can't please everyone.
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#301894 - 06/09/2007 12:44
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cybjorg]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Quote:
Apple spokeswoman Natalie Kerris said anyone who purchased an iPhone within the past 14 days and has the receipt can get a full refund under Apple's return policy if they haven't opened the product. If they have opened it, they still can get a refund of the price difference.
Apple's response to recent adopters who feel a bit burned by the most recent price drop.
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#301895 - 06/09/2007 12:53
Re: The new iPods
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Cool! Another happy Archos owner! Out of curiosity, I did a size comparison with the Archos players and the iPod Touch and iPhone. I wasn't aware that the iPhone and the Touch are actually different sizes. I had assumed that they'd forgone a hard disk model so that they could just use the cases they were already making for the iPhones. As you can see, the Archos players are clearly larger, but that's to be expected considering they have a 4.3" screen (vs 3.5") and they're hard drive based. Engadget posted a story this morning about the possibility that the Touch has bluetooth, based on product shots. If so, that's certainly a feature advantage for Apple, though I would wonder why they didn't mention it at the press conference.
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Matt
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#301896 - 06/09/2007 14:16
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Apple's response to recent adopters who feel a bit burned by the most recent price drop.
AKA, their standard return policy. Some people are having luck using their credit card companies as a method to get the difference back outside that 14 day window. Job's response in an interview was "thats technology".
I had hoped Apple would do something similar to the Aperture price drop, but it seems they would just prefer to ensure they never have a large fan base at the launch of future products. So many people now, including myself are going to be waiting a lot longer to get the new shiny Apple trinkets.
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#301897 - 06/09/2007 14:43
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Quote:
Apple is also (still) advertising not only HD-based players but also flash-based with 1-billion byte GB. So that 16GB of flash is actually 14.9GB. Whhy aren't we seeing class-action lawsuits against PC makers and HD companies to get this advertising deception stopped?
You missed the lawsuits apparently. I think the end result was simply the "1GB = 1 billion bytes; actual formatted capacity less." disclaimer stamped on everything now. Similar to the old monitor size lawsuits resulting in every CRT going to "15 inches, 14.1 viewable".
This two-by-four that I just bought is only one-and-a-half inches by three-and-a-half inches! I demand a full-size two-by-four!
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Bitt Faulk
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#301898 - 06/09/2007 14:44
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Well, that's in the best case scenario. The poor dude that bought one on Monday has had $100/day of coolness factor depreciation.  On the other hand, if this surprises you, then you haven't been watching Apple's new product introductions since, oh, say, 1980 or so. They ALWAYS crank up the price for the early adopters, and then generally issue a product with far improved specs at a much lower price within short order. And there is NEVER a migration path for the early adopters and there is ALMOST ALWAYS a serious mis-feature or limitation of the Gen 1 product which is corrected on Gen2. Brilliant marketing, really. Think about it. You get a large population of people who say "this whizzy new product is super-expensive, but it's so cool it's ALMOST worth it." Then when a price cut comes along they think, "Damn, I seriously thought about buying this when it cost way more. It's a no-brainer to buy it now straightaway (at an only _somewhat_ premium price)." Quick history recap (off the top of my head so numbers may be slightly inaccurate): - Lisa: $10,000
- Original 128K Mac w/o hard drive: 2500-2800 dollars (I.e., $5000+ in today's dollars)
- First LaserWriters: $7000
- Original Pricing on Cinema Displays: $mucho
- Original crappy iPod versus competitors products: 2x the cost.
- etc.
Also, with respect to the iPhone, I believe this was a phenomenally executed piece of demand management for several reasons. - Introducing the iPhone at a ridiculous price point (seemingly) establishes them as *the* top-of-the-line premium product in this space.
This could have backfired if there had been any major technical screw-ups with the product. But there weren't.
- Guarantees that demand won't exceed supply (by much) while they are ramping up a new and somewhat unfamiliar product.
In fact, one could argue that it would have been irresponsible to their shareholders not to have done this. If they had rolled it out priced significantly less, then all of those PS3-ebay-first-day-flipper-scumbags would have been hawking them on Ebay marked up far above list price. Thus diverting perhaps $50 million or more of profit from Apple's coffers into the hands of scalpers/leeches who provide no real value. In conclusion: Let's get real, guys. Whizzy gizmos for (many) boys are like fashion for (many) girls. You are basically paying a price which is unreasonably marked up for something which nobody actually _needs_ and which nobody will be caught dead using in two years time because it will be too embarassing/obsolete at that point. It's all rolled in together. The very things which make it cool and pricey now will make it uncool and worthless eventually. (Hey remember when those nasty-ugly plastic blue iMacs were considered cool?) [Yes, I realize iPhone ownership is 47% female, and that many guys spend big money on stupid trendy shoes and moisturizer. So please forgive me using the dated stereotype of boys=gadgets, girls=fashion. The point is valid no matter which sex is buying what.]  Get over it, have fun with the iPhone til your contract runs out, then put it in your closet alongside the Member's Only jacket, parachute pants, Newton, Palm Pilot, giant earrings and shoulder pads, lower back tattoo, boxed copy of Netscape 2.0, enormous stack of dot-com stock certificates, and your "Don't Vote Me Off The Island" T-shirt.  P.S. I still love my iPhone, despite it's flaws. And I mentally and emotionally wrote off the entire $2000 total lifetime cost of ownership the minute I walked out of the Cultic Lifestyle Harmonization Mothership, excuse me, Apple Store. Sure, it's a rip-off. A shiny, whizzy, fun, unable to put down, finger-scrolling, sideways turning, music-playing, YouTube watching rip-off. And you can't have mine.
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#301899 - 06/09/2007 14:48
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Similar to the old monitor size lawsuits resulting in every CRT going to "15 inches, 14.1 viewable".
Hmm, you must have had less-good lawsuits over there. In the UK the mentions of tube size disappeared altogether, or at least into tiny-print footnotes. CRT adverts were completely non-misleading for, ooh, probably about six months just before everyone stopped selling CRTs.
I agree the Gbytes thing is despicable.
Peter
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#301900 - 06/09/2007 15:02
Re: The new iPods
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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My problem with all of these arguments is that the size is meaningless anyway. Who goes to the store with a laundry list of all the data they expect to have and buy a hard drive based on that? No one. You go to the store and buy the biggest one you can afford. Nor do you decide how many windows you're going to have on your screen at once and decide how big your monitor needs to be to support them.
Is it wrong that they use GB and inches to mean things other than what they really mean? Yeah, sure. But, in the end, as long as they're consistent, who cares? Of course, nothing but a lawsuit will fix it. I can't imagine that Seagate and Hitachi will release hard drives of the same size, only to have Seagate mark it with a smaller number. Heck, the people who care have made up new terms for the binary-based units, rather than try to (supposedly) reclaim the original terms. In addition, I'm pretty sure that "giga" means "billion" in every other application. And even amongst computer professionals, you almost always have to qualify terms like that in the rare instance when precise measurements are needed.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#301901 - 06/09/2007 15:04
Re: The new iPods
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
On the other hand, if this surprises you, then you haven't been watching Apple's new product introductions since, oh, say, 1980 or so.
They ALWAYS crank up the price for the early adopters, and then generally issue a product with far improved specs at a much lower price within short order. And there is NEVER a migration path for the early adopters and there is ALMOST ALWAYS a serious mis-feature or limitation of the Gen 1 product which is corrected on Gen2.
Thats the problem. I have been watching Apple's history on product releases. I can't verify anything before 2000 as I wasn't watching closely, but I have never seen Apple drop a new product 33% 68 days after release like the iPhone. In fact, I have a hard time thinking of any major tech product that has seen such a dramatic drop that soon after the introduction, especially when sales were doing just fine. The drop in this case turns out to be the rare exception in Apple's standards, not the normal policy. The iPods go for nearly a year before being changed out for newer models at similar prices. The computers average at least 6-8 months before being either price dropped or bumped in specs. This can be seen at the Mac Rumors buyers guide.
I still like the device, and thus far still have no major complaints about it. I was willing to live with gen 1, because it's so damn good. And so far, my Gen 1 products from Apple haven't left me with a feeling of missing a serious feature or have major limitations as you state.
Quote:
In fact, one could argue that it would have been irresponsible to their shareholders not to have done this.
While I know I've said in the past short term stock shifts don't mean much, and still stand by that, it is interesting that Apple's stock did tumble nearly 8% yesterday, with the start of the tumble coming around the time the announcements were posted to Apple.com. So overall, it seems the shareholders weren't immediately impressed with the announcements yesterday. My guess is the drop may have been due to people thinking the price drop represents a panic move to try and sell more devices, and is a hint that sales weren't as good as people hoped for. Though to counter that, Apple states they are still on track for their goal of a million to be hit this month, so who knows what the real motivation behind the cut was.
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#301903 - 06/09/2007 15:52
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Hynix 24x stacked NAND Flash for a total of 384Gb. Maybe this will end up in a iPod Touch rev 2? Never buy the first revision of a new device. It will be expensive, buggy and quickly superceded. This applies especially so for Apple stuff.
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#301904 - 06/09/2007 16:02
Re: The new iPods
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Maybe this will end up in a iPod Touch rev 2?
I'd hate to see its price. That stacked flash trick is cute, but how much is it gonna cost?
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#301905 - 06/09/2007 16:07
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cris]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Quote:
What I want is an iPhone with the phone module removed, and the ability to connect to my own mobile so I can choose my network etc... but keep all the functions.
This news make brighten your day, then.
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#301906 - 06/09/2007 16:28
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cybjorg]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Quote:
This news make brighten your day, then.
Cool! But it's still a WiFi only device at this point. Anyone know of a mobile that can act as a WiFi Hotspot ? 
Cheers
Cris.
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#301907 - 06/09/2007 17:05
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Cool! But it's still a WiFi only device at this point. Anyone know of a mobile that can act as a WiFi Hotspot ?
Is that a mobile phone WiFi access point in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
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#301908 - 06/09/2007 17:21
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Anyone know of a mobile that can act as a WiFi Hotspot ?
I'll bet you could write a piece of software to run on an iPhone that would do that.
Oh, wait...
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#301909 - 06/09/2007 17:35
Re: The new iPods
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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#301910 - 06/09/2007 17:50
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/$100 Apple credit to all early iPhone buyers. Glad they did something, though a shame though that it was reactionary to the bad press about the cut.
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#301911 - 06/09/2007 18:46
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
Quote:
and there is ALMOST ALWAYS a serious mis-feature or limitation of the Gen 1 product which is corrected on Gen2.
I was willing to live with gen 1, because it's so damn good. And so far, my Gen 1 products from Apple haven't left me with a feeling of missing a serious feature or have major limitations as you state.
Well, for the iPhone, in my opinion, the "limitations" are - lack of 3G,
- not letting me draw on my multi-gigabyte MP3 library as a source of ringtones,
- not having 32GB or 64GB of flash (which will be standard by the time my cellphone contract expires in 2009)
and the "serious mis-features" are - being locked into Suckular for 2 years, and
- not allowing me to run Firefox or at a minimum installing an AdBlocker in Safari so I don't spend EDGE download time waiting for annoying ad banners,
- an almost Microsoftian app/framework tie-in to iTunes/iPhoto/iCal/iMail/AddressBook/Safari
I still think it's swell, though.
And I will shortly be spending the newly announced $100 rebate at the Apple Store on Bluetooth stuff (or a second Mac battery for long plane trips).
Edited to add Limitation#3
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#301913 - 06/09/2007 23:40
Re: The new iPods
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Do they mean GigaBITS? Because 384GB could fit about 192 DVD movies at 2GB per movie or 96 at 4GB, not 25 as they mention (that would make each movie 15.36GB). 384Gb = 48GB which fits 25 1.92GB files.
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#301914 - 07/09/2007 01:03
Re: The new iPods
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah. Someone's confused. The press release implies that they're stacking 24 of their current highest-capacity chips, which are 16 somethings. 16 times 24 is 384, so that follows. The only question is the unit. Hynix's tech sheet on their highest-capacity flash clearly states 16Gbit. So yeah, it's 384Gbit.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#301915 - 07/09/2007 09:38
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/
$100 Apple credit to all early iPhone buyers. Glad they did something, though a shame though that it was reactionary to the bad press about the cut.
They're not refunding you the money though. They're just giving you store credit so you can buy more Apple items. It is likely that you'll buy something that costs more than $100 as well.
Nintendo got fined ages ago for doing price fixing. Their punishment was to send everybody a small value voucher so you could buy more Nintendo games/equipment. Big punishment that...
iPhone for $599! $100 worth of accessories included!
The letter implies that the decision to reduce the price was made nearly on the spot but I don't see how they can do that without significant planning.
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#301916 - 07/09/2007 10:16
Re: The new iPods
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Is Mr Jobs feeling okay? This sort of touchy-feeliness is not like him. The Steve Jobs of old would be trumpeting the excess $200M Apple pocketed from the first million buyers, and publicly expressing regret that he hadn't priced them at $799 and made $400M.
There was a great Macworld keynote once where he showed consecutive slides with (and I can't remember the exact figures but say) firstly, Ipod sales 40% of US MP3 sales by units (gets applause), and next, Ipod sales 75% of US MP3 sales by revenue (gets standing ovation). Why are you cheering him?, I wanted to yell at the screen, he's just told you he's ripped you all off.
Peter
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#301917 - 07/09/2007 12:46
Re: The new iPods
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
They're not refunding you the money though. They're just giving you store credit so you can buy more Apple items. It is likely that you'll buy something that costs more than $100 as well.
I know, and it's part of the disappointment that they didn't even go as far as offering the full $200 back as Apple credit since it's not a real refund. However, I do plan on buying other Apple products in the future, so the $100 won't go unwasted. Leopard comes out in October, so thats $129 right there.
I did also call American Express to see what they were doing, and I have a claim submitted at this point for the full $200 refund along with the tax on the $200. Quite a few people have had success going this route already it seems.
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#301918 - 07/09/2007 15:51
Re: The new iPods
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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To be fair, I suspect some of that was that (at the time) they were selling the higher-end players as opposed to the $99 and less players.... Still, Keynote watching is still exciting - as in, I still get surprised - from the inside. A little less frightening than it was at Rio, though Hugo
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#301919 - 08/09/2007 19:50
Re: The new iPods
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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So are there any new ipod classic users one here. I was thinking about getting one but I tried it at the apple store today and now i'm not sure.
From what I could tell if you want to do something like play a shuffle of several artists you have to add everything to the "on the go" playlist then go play that playlist and you can only append if you suddenly want to hear a particular song. Then for the no playing list it looks like you can only show the currently playing track not a list of all the tracks in the current playlist.
I am guessing the classic must have changed quite a bit over the older ipods because no one in the apple store could tell me how to run it either.
I checked out the Zune some more too and it looks like it operates about the same as the ipod I did prefer the 4 way pad to the scroll wheel though.
Maybe I will just have to get used to the ipod way.
_________________________
Matt
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#301920 - 09/09/2007 00:00
Re: The new iPods
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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If you're used to a Karma, there's a bit of a lack of depth of functionality on either the iPod or the Zune. Rather unfortunate, but I suspect it's to allow first-time users to get round more easily rather than any lack of implementation effort.
I miss now & next type screens too. And tweak order & the rest...
From what I saw, the new non-touch iPods work pretty much the same way as the old ones just with more gloss and a coverflow-style mode (which is pretty cute if you have all your album art in there, and a sad reminder of how badly pieced together your music collection is if you don't).
Hugo
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#301921 - 09/09/2007 02:44
Re: The new iPods
[Re: altman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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I haven't been able to find anything that comes close to the karma or empeg. I did play with a zune more and found it does have a now and next type display. I lean more towards the ipod because of the car adapters.
I wonder what the archos is like.
_________________________
Matt
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#301922 - 09/09/2007 03:22
Re: The new iPods
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I wonder what the archos is like.
I'll take a look at mine sometime to see if it does that shuffle thing you were talking about. I have a feeling it doesn't...
_________________________
Matt
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#301923 - 09/09/2007 03:52
Re: The new iPods
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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This sounds interesting Link
_________________________
Matt
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#301924 - 09/09/2007 14:45
Re: The new iPods
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
I am guessing the classic must have changed quite a bit over the older ipods because no one in the apple store could tell me how to run it either.
Maybe I will just have to get used to the ipod way.
Looking at the videos on the Apple site, I can't see anything to indicate a big change in the interface. It looks like cover flow was added ,and that the menus frequently have art on the right hand side now. Beyond that, the mechanics all seem the same as the first gen Nano I have.
As far as the iPod way, I haven't given in yet. The nano came in handy for podcasts since the Karma didn't understand such concepts, but beyond that it never saw any music use. Most of my iPhone space is also dedicated to podcasts, or videos, with very little actual music on it. If I need music on the go, I still grab the Karma, and thankfully the one I have is holding up decently.
It really is a shame the great features of both the empeg and Karma haven't really reappeared in many other places. I had hoped the iPod would change to add in more advanced features, but at the pace it is going, we might have an iPod equivalent to the Karma by 2030. I'm still surprised iTunes folders for playlist management still hasn't made the sync jump over to the iPods, and that even with the power of the iPhone platform, smart playlists are stuck being static once they move over.
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#301925 - 09/09/2007 14:53
Re: The new iPods
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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There's no such concept as "current playlist" on any iPod. You're limited to the "On The Go" playlist which honestly, seems like a completely tacked on feature. The problem is that the interface has just seen tacked on features from the first iteration created by Portal Player.
Designing both a friendlier and more versatile interface is definitely possible using the mechanics employed now for input. I doubt Apple will ever improve this to tell you the truth. The iPod interface has always been completely awkward and a slap in the face to ease of use. The product's market dominance and the lack of commitment of any other manufacturer to their own product line is all but a guarantee that the landscape will not change either.
I've never tried a Karma, but I was not at all a fan of the other Rio players (flash based) of the time. Of any product I've tried, Slim Device's Slimserver and SqueezeBox are by far the best, if not the prettiest. Empeg/Riocar close second and in fact has a number of cool features above thhose implemented in any of Slim's default interfaces (Enqueue for one).
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