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#303562 - 01/11/2007 18:23 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: wfaulk]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:
that you might not think of in the 3 minutes you're standing in front of the TV


My point exactly. When I spend £2000 ($4000) on a TV I spend a little more than 3 minutes. A proper demo should last as long as you need it to. I even took my macbook along to try the PC input

Of course the tech spec is important to make sure it fits into your system well, but shouldn't be the basis of the decision. And I really don't think the magazine review are worth the paper they are printed on, so I ignore them. Same thing with HiFi, it's what your ears hear that's important. For example I am sure plenty of people will tell you valve amps are rubbish, but my value headphone amp is the best thing I have ever heard (at my price point!). I think your eyes are as individual as your ears, so that's more important than anything else.

Cheers

Cris.

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#303563 - 01/11/2007 18:50 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Cris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
My point is that if you don't have some preexisting information, you quickly reach a point where you're just staring at a TV with no purpose. No new questions or observations are going to pop into your head. Whereas if you have some specific things in mind, it's going to take you longer to observe those things, and the longer you stand in front of the TV actually paying attention to it, as opposed to drooling while watching the same scene from your Lord of the Rings DVD for the twentieth time in a row, the more chances you're going to notice something out of the ordinary, even if it's not something that's on your list.
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Bitt Faulk

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#303564 - 01/11/2007 19:18 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Cris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
Quote:

Edit - My Pioneer PDP-507XD has a native res of 1365 x 768


Yeah, my 37" Viewsonic LCD TV has 1366x768 native resolution. And that's the only mode I ever use, as it is fed from my MythTV box over DVI-D -> HDMI at 1360x768 digital resolution from X11.

Looks fantastic, and doesn't dominate the (small) room like a more massive set might.

Cheers

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#303565 - 01/11/2007 20:17 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: tonyc]
Neutrino
addict

Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Here's the spreadsheet I was looking for


Attachments
305230-theater_calculator_v3.6.xls (878 downloads)

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No matter where you might be, there you are.

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#303566 - 02/11/2007 12:31 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: tonyc]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
See here:
http://www.firingsquad.com/print_article.asp?current_section=Hardware&fs_article_id=2265

Quite interesting.

I also seem to recall that for good home hifi, bigger is better

Basically people asked to rate how they enjoyed a film rated bigger screens more than higher def screens.

Of course I have a 2.8m projector that can do HD but usually does SD so I would say that
_________________________
LittleBlueThing Running twin 30's

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#303567 - 02/11/2007 16:22 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: tonyc]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
I see the empeg BBS lamp hasn't lost its magical powers! You guys rule.

Regarding my price range, I'd be willing to go up to about $3500, plus whatever it costs for an extended service plan. Going beyond that would require a very good reason to do so.

On the flat-panel (LCD/plasma) vs. rear projection question, I really don't need the flexibility that a flat panel provides. I don't plan on mounting on a wall, and have enough room for the bulkier rear projection models if it's needed. I had a hunch that the rear projection models might provide more value, and that seems to be supported by many of the responses here.

Regarding the DLP sets, I don't know if I'm susceptible to the rainbow effect, but the fact that the LEDs last longer and draw less power is very appealing. If I do go with DLP I think I'll probably get one of the ones with LEDs. The LCoS technology looks interesting, but I have a bit of an anti-Sony bias due to other Sony products I've owned, and the JVC LCoS models seem to have mediocre reviews. The Sony SXRD models do get good reviews though, so I will definitely take a look at one of them.

The way things look now, if I do go the plasma or LCD route, I'm probably topping out at about 50" at my current price range; whereas going with DLP could get me into the 60" range with LED or all the way up to 72" with a bulb. I'll have a better idea about my target screen size once I move into the new place, but the room is 24x12, so I'm thinking 50" might not be quite enough. In that case, plasmas are pretty much out of the question.

I agree with the sentiment that what's important is how the picture looks *to me* and not what specs the TV has, but I want to go into the stores with as much info as possible so I can make an informed decision. If I know a set has been reviewed and the reviewers found screen uniformity issues, problems with high-motion scenes, etc. I want to look for those things specifically and see if they bother me. Maybe I'll notice them under normal conditions, maybe I won't, but it's good to get an idea before shelling out thousands of dollars.

At this point based on input here and the reviews I've read, I'm leaning towards one of the newer DLP models with LED from Samsung, but I'll be looking at the Aquos, the Sony LCoS, and a few other DLPs as well. If I decide I can get by with a 50" screen, I'll throw a few of the plasmas into the mix as well.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#303568 - 02/11/2007 16:50 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: tonyc]
CrackersMcCheese
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
Quick query. Do all HDTVs display SD pixelated? All the ones I've seen look hideous when showing SD. 90% of the time I'd be watching SD as my only HD sources are DVD and Xbox.

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#303569 - 02/11/2007 16:53 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Yeah, SD quality is going to be a significant factor for m as I evaluate them in person. From reviews, it appears some HD sets handle SD better than others. The good thing is this is a concern that will dwindle over time as more HD channels appear.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#303570 - 02/11/2007 17:48 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: tonyc]
Attack
addict

Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 599
Loc: Florida
I have the JVC HD56FH96 (LCOS) and only have a few issues. My model doesn't have 1080p input but HD56FH97 does. My other issues are connecting my PC to requires me to enable to overscan options in the NVidia drivers since the TV has about a 5% overscan. My last issue is with the input selector, you can't just pick input1, you have to press input then up or down to change and you have to wait for each input to tune before moving to the next input.
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Chad

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#303571 - 02/11/2007 18:08 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Attack]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Do HDTV signals generally assume there is overscan or, since it's a very specific digital resolution, should TVs be displaying all of the pixels as sent to them?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#303572 - 02/11/2007 18:20 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: wfaulk]
siberia37
old hand

Registered: 09/01/2002
Posts: 702
Loc: Tacoma,WA
I think overscan is still a problem/issue. Even my HDTV tuner on my computer shows a couple pixel rows of static unless I adjust overscan settings in MythTV.

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#303573 - 02/11/2007 18:54 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: wfaulk]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Quote:
Do HDTV signals generally assume there is overscan or, since it's a very specific digital resolution, should TVs be displaying all of the pixels as sent to them?


Overscan comes from the age of CRTs with less than straight edges when people were also sticking all sorts of junk in the VBI. Most broadcasters leave 5 or 10% as an 'unsafe area' around the edge of the screen to deal with various levels of overscan. With a digital picture you should assume all the active picture is visible.

My main LCD at home exhibits almost no overscan on DTT and none on the HDMI inputs.
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#303574 - 02/11/2007 19:47 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: andym]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I forgot we had a broadcast professional.

There are actually CRT HDTVs. I won one and a friend owns one, too. Ours probably overscan.
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Bitt Faulk

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#303575 - 02/11/2007 20:16 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: wfaulk]
Attack
addict

Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 599
Loc: Florida
My Local Fox station has the right side of the X cut off due to my TV's overscan, but I am using a TiVo connected via component cables. I haven't tried using the HDMI because I was already using all of the HDMI ports on my TV. I also haven't connected the cable directly to the TV to see if this happens on it. An HDMI scaler / switch will allow me to fix this.
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Chad

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#303576 - 02/11/2007 20:22 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Attack]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
I find on-screen logos are the most troublesome. Very hard to position it right, you either risk having the edges knocked off (as already mentioned) or having it so far in it interferes with the action on screen.
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Cheers,

Andy M

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#303577 - 03/11/2007 00:12 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: tonyc]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
The LCoS technology looks interesting, but I have a bit of an anti-Sony bias due to other Sony products I've owned, and the JVC LCoS models seem to have mediocre reviews. The Sony SXRD models do get good reviews though, so I will definitely take a look at one of them.

I have no love for Sony as a company, but IMO they still make excellent TVs. Mine handles SD content very well, has excellent black levels considering it's rear projection.
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Matt

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#303578 - 03/11/2007 04:54 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Dignan]
Neutrino
addict

Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Do you guys really use your TV's to upscale content? I can't remember the last time I had to do that. OK, when I used a Laserdisc player! (I really do have one but since Grand Prix came out Hi-Def and Flash Gordon finally made it to DVD I have not turned it on.) Everything I view is at least 1080i native or is upconverted by the player BEFORE the TV every sees it.
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#303579 - 03/11/2007 13:28 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Neutrino]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Do you guys really use your TV's to upscale content? I can't remember the last time I had to do that. OK, when I used a Laserdisc player! (I really do have one but since Grand Prix came out Hi-Def and Flash Gordon finally made it to DVD I have not turned it on.) Everything I view is at least 1080i native or is upconverted by the player BEFORE the TV every sees it.

The way I understood it, it's not something you "turn on." At least not on my TV. If the native resolution is 1080p, isn't it just taking all content and "upconverting" it to 1080p?

I was under the impression that you basically had a choice of whether the video processor on your TV does it, or if you get another device to do it. For example, I have an upconverting DVD player, but I leave it at 480p because I don't think it would have as good a video processor as my TV does. Besides, it can only go up to 1080i, and then my TV has to do the rest of the work anyway.

Then again, I'm probably completely wrong on this
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Matt

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#303580 - 03/11/2007 14:23 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Dignan]
Neutrino
addict

Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Quote:
Quote:
Do you guys really use your TV's to upscale content? I can't remember the last time I had to do that. OK, when I used a Laserdisc player! (I really do have one but since Grand Prix came out Hi-Def and Flash Gordon finally made it to DVD I have not turned it on.) Everything I view is at least 1080i native or is upconverted by the player BEFORE the TV every sees it.

The way I understood it, it's not something you "turn on." At least not on my TV. If the native resolution is 1080p, isn't it just taking all content and "upconverting" it to 1080p?

I was under the impression that you basically had a choice of whether the video processor on your TV does it, or if you get another device to do it. For example, I have an upconverting DVD player, but I leave it at 480p because I don't think it would have as good a video processor as my TV does. Besides, it can only go up to 1080i, and then my TV has to do the rest of the work anyway.

Then again, I'm probably completely wrong on this


I think you’re pretty much right on.

I guess the deciding factor on what you’re going to use is determined by the quality of scaler. I have found that the scaler in the DVD players I use are much better than that in the TV’s. An example of this might be using a Toshiba A30 or a PS3 to upscale versus the TV. Most TV’s would not do as good of a job as the players. As far as 1080i and 1080p, at this point it really doesn’t matter. There is no more scaling needed here to convert from one to the other. It is only a matter of interlacing or de-interlacing.
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No matter where you might be, there you are.

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#303581 - 03/11/2007 14:44 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Neutrino]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
My DVD player is a cheapo LG. I like it for all the formats it can play, but I'm not sure it will have the greatest scaler in it. I'd rather trust my Sony's.
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Matt

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#303582 - 03/11/2007 16:25 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Dignan]
Neutrino
addict

Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Ok, that makes sense. Upscaling is always easier than down scaling anyway. Upscaling is the duplication of pixels instead of the removal of content like downscaling. I've always thought that if you are going to spend $3000.00 on a TV that spending a couple hundred on a player with a good scaler is justified. FWIW, Walmart had the Toshiba A2 HD-DVD player on sale for $98.00 yesterday. The A2 has a good scaler plus the ability to watch HD-DVD's and the ability to output True-HD audio via PCM on the HDMI output. I guess that those that are looking to buy a new TV should look at the scaler that it uses then make their choice based on that in regards to if a better player is justified.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=932570

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#303583 - 03/11/2007 19:45 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Neutrino]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Quote:
Upscaling is always easier than down scaling anyway.


I wouldn't say that, in fact, I would've thought the opposite was true.
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#303584 - 03/11/2007 21:41 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: andym]
Neutrino
addict

Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Perhaps the word “easier” was the wrong one to use. Maybe “better” would have been more accurate. Although I do think that it is easier too!

It is my understanding that it is always better to duplicate content then to remove it. When something is upscaled nothing is lost. When something is downscaled content IS lost. While artifacts are an issue with both processes I think it is felt that the end result is almost always better when upscaling as opposed to downscaling. It is the loss of content that makes the downscaling process more difficult. I don’t mean in it’s simpliest form of just removing pixels but when it is done with picture quality in mind. In order to minimize the effect of downscaling the processor must have the ability to work in an adaptive manner to produce a picture that is still pleasing to the eye. When upscaling I don’t think the task is quite as difficult. It is this complexity that places me in the buy a decent player with a good scaler camp.
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No matter where you might be, there you are.

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#303585 - 03/11/2007 23:31 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Dignan]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Quote:
Quote:
Do you guys really use your TV's to upscale content? I can't remember the last time I had to do that. OK, when I used a Laserdisc player! (I really do have one but since Grand Prix came out Hi-Def and Flash Gordon finally made it to DVD I have not turned it on.) Everything I view is at least 1080i native or is upconverted by the player BEFORE the TV every sees it.

The way I understood it, it's not something you "turn on." At least not on my TV. If the native resolution is 1080p, isn't it just taking all content and "upconverting" it to 1080p?

I was under the impression that you basically had a choice of whether the video processor on your TV does it, or if you get another device to do it. For example, I have an upconverting DVD player, but I leave it at 480p because I don't think it would have as good a video processor as my TV does. Besides, it can only go up to 1080i, and then my TV has to do the rest of the work anyway.

Then again, I'm probably completely wrong on this


Some sets actually convert everything to 1080i before doing a final conversion to 1080p.
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Glenn

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#303586 - 04/11/2007 00:30 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: Neutrino]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
It is my understanding that it is always better to duplicate content then to remove it. When something is upscaled nothing is lost. When something is downscaled content IS lost.

Unless your output resolution is an exact multiple of the input resolution then you're doing interpolation. You've not exactly lost anything but you're not getting what you put in. What you have to do is trust the upscalers algorithms to do it the "right" way. The more you pay, the better in theory the algorithms inside the upscaler. Your monitor/TV will already have an upscaler inside but your super expensive external box will hopefully do a better job.

Quote:
While artifacts are an issue with both processes I think it is felt that the end result is almost always better when upscaling as opposed to downscaling. It is the loss of content that makes the downscaling process more difficult. I don’t mean in it’s simpliest form of just removing pixels but when it is done with picture quality in mind. In order to minimize the effect of downscaling the processor must have the ability to work in an adaptive manner to produce a picture that is still pleasing to the eye. When upscaling I don’t think the task is quite as difficult. It is this complexity that places me in the buy a decent player with a good scaler camp.

Up and down scaling both require interpolation which gets pretty complicated. A naive implementation would be to just duplicate or remove rows. It'll do the job but it'll look terrible.

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#303587 - 04/11/2007 02:20 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: tman]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I'm also in the market for one of these things, and I'm very interested in getting an LCD flat panel that really and truly runs at 1080p/60, which should make for a fine home theater PC monitor. My question is how I can truly tell if a given set actually supports this? Do I need to borrow a Mac laptop with the appropriate mini DVI -> DVI -> HDMI cabling and just try each TV in sequence to see which ones do the right thing?

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#303588 - 04/11/2007 02:59 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: DWallach]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/index.html

This article is good, but is getting out of date as far as tested displays go.
_________________________
Glenn

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#303589 - 04/11/2007 10:39 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: DWallach]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
Quote:
I'm also in the market for one of these things, and I'm very interested in getting an LCD flat panel that really and truly runs at 1080p/60, which should make for a fine home theater PC monitor. My question is how I can truly tell if a given set actually supports this? Do I need to borrow a Mac laptop with the appropriate mini DVI -> DVI -> HDMI cabling and just try each TV in sequence to see which ones do the right thing?


The user manual / spec sheets usually say what the native resolution is.

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#303590 - 04/11/2007 13:11 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: mlord]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I'm willing to believe that if they say the native resolution is 1920x1080 that it will be. The question is whether it will be willing to digest a 60Hz non-interlaced signal from a computer at that resolution and display it without any nonsense. So far as I can tell, the only way to guarantee this is to test it yourself (unless somebody else with the exact model has managed to make it work in the past).

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#303591 - 04/11/2007 14:39 Re: HDTV Advice [Re: DWallach]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
Quote:
I'm willing to believe that if they say the native resolution is 1920x1080 that it will be. The question is whether it will be willing to digest a 60Hz non-interlaced signal from a computer at that resolution and display it without any nonsense. So far as I can tell, the only way to guarantee this is to test it yourself (unless somebody else with the exact model has managed to make it work in the past).


Again, the spec sheets often have most of that information. For example, here is the spec sheet for a model similar to the one I have (advertised as 1080i).

In there, it clearly says the PC resolution should be 1360x768 (max), but doesn't specify refresh (60Hz works just fine). EDIT: Ah ha! this link includes the refresh spec, 1360x768@60Hz.

I actually feed it from the PC (Myth) via an HDMI input (from DVI-D) at 1360x768x60Hz.

Hopefully you can find similar spec sheets for whatever models you are considering. My criteria was simply: 37" LCD, CHEAP! (CDN$1000 a year ago), 1366x768 or better, DVI-D or HDMI input, and acceptable picture quality (hey, it's a TV for cripes sake!).

There was no point in looking at picture quality reviews, since most of them focussed on the picture from the internal ATSC/NTSC tuners, which I never use. Nowadays, the reviewers probably pay the most attention to the HDMI inputs (good).

Cheers


Edited by mlord (04/11/2007 14:52)

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