You're joking, right? Is this a troll? Can you name any concrete examples of Apple listening to its customers? I have to think that if they were listening right now, for example, they'd at least be considering an option for a screen rotation lock on the iPad, instead of touting it as a feature at launch, getting rid of it because Steve says so, and then refusing to even consider making it an option.

Apple is most certainly NOT a good example of a company that listens to its users. It's probably one of the most extreme examples of a corporation with an auteur at the head who makes every decision, rarely if ever taking the users' requests into consideration.

Don't get me wrong, that way works better for them than any other company, purely because Steve is almost always correct in his decisions as being right for the company, and frequently for their users, but again, I get no sense that they're taking user feedback to heart.

The iPad retains the screen rotation lock in 4.2, it's just changed to mirror the way it was implemented on the iPhone when 4.0 came out.

If you want a concrete example of Apple listening to it's users, look at their products. Not many users indicated their interest in the XServe, so it's going away. That may seem bad (and it definitely is for the few groups of people that depended on the system), but it allows Apple to put those resources elsewhere, instead of keeping a near dead product alive and potentially driving up costs elsewhere. There is also the generation of iPod with the weird 4 buttons above the scroll wheel. They received feedback that people generally didn't like that and the generation after was changed back with the click wheel. Some of their pro users indicated a strong liking for non glossy screens, so the 15 and 17 inch systems offer a non glossy option. Those are three examples I can think of, there are probably many more others could point out.

I've submitted, and had feedback responded to regarding Apple's products, so I even have personal experiences to know they do listen. Jobs just happens to be user #1 with a very big override on other feedback. BluRay is sadly one of those frustrating areas where he is overriding my own feedback.

Below are ways I know of to submit feedback to Apple, and at least have it read. It may not be considered or acted upon, but thats most likely the case for many other companies too.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/
https://bugreport.apple.com/

Isn't that just good business instead of appearing to listen to your users? The rest I agree with tho :P

Not buying something can a form of user feedback, when they are choosing to vote with their wallet. I'm sure Apple had feedback asking for a cheeper server then the XServe or OS X server on a Mac Pro. So they released the Mini server, and in doing so, users voted with their wallet indicating they liked the Mini over the other choices. I've seen companies I've worked for in the past keep products alive well past financial feasibility for the business, either in an attempt to and remarket the product to try and pull more people in, or as a way to hopefully keep existing small customer base happy.

I have to agree with Trevor. I hardly see it as "listening to customer feedback" when you cancel a product line due to poor sales. I know that's one form of feedback, but it's really the most basic, and what company doesn't listen to that particular form of feedback? I'm not going to give Apple any credit for that one

Now that I think about it, a better example would be the return of buttons on the shuffle. I don't know any sales numbers, but I suspect they had something to do with that as well.


Are you talking about the physical switch on the side? Because I was under the impression that it was being changed back to a mute button. If that's what you mean, I don't think I'd be a very happy iPad customer. I get the whole "consistent experience" thing, but like I said, why not give people the option?

Besides, how often do you need a hardware mute button on your iPad? I know for certain that if I had one, my answer would be "a tiny fraction of the number of times I turn in bed while reading"

But hey, I might have been following the story incorrectly. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

To be honest, we wouldn't have ended up with the Mk2 fascia if Rob had listened to the rest of empeg In fact, we didn't see it until it was a fait-accompli. And I honestly think it's better for that. Thanks Rob.

Apples track history of listening on the iPhone is, for lack of a better phrase, piss poor and even if they do listen, it takes years to "make it through the machine". I'm still anxiously awaiting a lock screen which allows you to see information, upcoming appointments, number of emails and whatever information third party apps want to disclose via some method of configuration.

I'm not holding my breath.

I also fail to see the x-serve analogy.

Info on lock screen: LockInfo running with Winterboard after Jailbeak. Do it. Then apply a decent skin to the lock screen. Then also install SBSettings. Invaluable.

I said Apple was the perfect example and I'll argue this until the end of time with anyone. I can argue the opposite as well, but I actually believe what I've said, so I'm sticking with this position.

They "listen" but they don't always react the way you may want them to. Believe me, I'll be extremely vocal about this as well, because of my passion for the platform and design. There's a lot to complain about Apple's products. So in listening, they execute a balanced effort that for the past 10 years has achieved extremely wide product acceptance like they have never before seen in their history. And wide and long enough that they have completely obliterated the competition in these few categories.

Now, if they wanted to better design many of their products they could give me a call and I'd help them out, but I'm hardly delusional enough that it would ever happen.

Market prognostication time (responding to some stuff on the first page of this thead):

AppleTV has a major advantage, solely for its $99 price point. Hell, they even reduced the physical size to the point that it can literally be a Christmas stocking stuffer. Given the surprising uptake of Netflix downloads, and the fact that the 2nd-gen AppleTV supports them out of the box, that makes for a killer combination. It's easy, all too easy, to see Apple enabling third-party apps, which will bring in Pandora and all the other missing stuff without people needing to hack the box.

I'd been running Boxee on my 1st-gen AppleTV (before it overheated and crapped out), but Pandora was our #1 application for it. These days, Pandora is showing up on all kinds of other platforms, including our new Tivo Premiere (which replaced the Tivo HD that self-destructed).

Given that Tivo is keeping Pandora up, that's just enough that I'm not racing out to buy anything new. Maybe I'll try out Netflix at some point, and Tivo supports that as well. Of course, Tivo has plenty of failings (including very poor support for streaming videos from my computer), but I don't want to buy more random home theater electronics until there's real support for them, versus all this "sorry, only on your PC" filtering bull.

I agree with everything you said, but everything you said also applies to Roku, and the model that corresponds to Apple TV's features is the $60 model. Plus:


I know it's not the same, but Roku already has a channel app ecosystem, and people are writing channels for it themselves.

I've already had people ask me about these kinds of products, and I've been giving the same advice to all of them: if you're a heavy iTunes user, I say go with the Apple TV. If not, you might as well go with Roku, which can do much more for less money. Seriously, $99 is great and all, but at $59, I can see people simply getting one for every TV in the house!

As dissatisfied as I am with the Boxee Box in its current state, I've come to a tough conclusion: it's the only solution out there for me.

The Roku, quite simply, DOES NOT do local media playback. They talk about it on their high-end model, but it isn't even implemented yet, and from everything I can tell, it'll only work using sneakernet, and that's simply not acceptable these days. Other than that, the Roku is everything else that I want out of this product category...

The Apple TV is very attractive, but it requires me to encode all the video I'm going to want to watch on it, and I don't want to be forced to run software on my computer (iTunes) in order to use a device like this.

So that leaves me with the Boxee Box. I'm going to tough it out and see if they can improve the software. Really, all I'm waiting for at this point is the Netflix app, and then I'll be fairly happy with the thing.

Sadly quite a few. I saw Compaq spend way too much time in engineering working on a few specific new server models customers didn't want, then putting them on sale, and most likely ending up wasting a lot of money when they didn't sell. Same for keeping some product lines running well past when users wanted them. I've seen software companies do the same, implementing some feature or change users didn't want, but some exec did. It's sadly more common then you may think. With Apple, even Jobs tends to keep a grounded user approach to products and decisions. His decisions may not always line up with all the users, or even a majority, but he's usually quick to correct himself when needed. Plenty of other heads of companies have similar powers over design and products, without the grounding into what the consumer actually wanted.


No, I'm talking about the overall option. Your initial statement came across to me as if the entire thing had been removed because Jobs said so. It wasn't. When the iPad was first shown, the physical switch was a mute switch. Then, shortly before launch, it changed to be a screen rotation lock, likely due to Apple knowing it would be useful, but without an easy way to implement it in software quickly before ship. iOS 4.0 was well in development while 3.2 (iPad only iOS release) was locked down and being prepared for shipment. Changing the switch behavior is trivial code compared to implementing some sort of universally accessible software option in an iOS release not built for multitasking. iOS 4.0 then gained the rotation lock as an option under the new multitasking/quick options bar and was added to the iPhone. Fast forward to 4.2 when the iPad is finally brought into the 4.x line, and the option remains in the same place in the quick options panel.


I know for certain (due to owning one :-P) that I need a mute switch 2 times daily. Once for when I go into the office, and don't want the iPad going "ping" every time I get an e-mail or meeting reminder, and once when I get home and want to resume my previous Netflix video before bed. Due to my iPad being secured with a PIN lock, I currently have to open my case, unlock the device, then hold down the volume down button to mute it. With 4.2, it will be a switch accessible without even opening the case, just like my iPhone. Rotation lock? I need access to that much less frequently, and every time I need it, the device will be on and in use. Thus, a software only option works just fine.

In terms of app ecosystems and whatnot, I'm curious whether this notion of HTML5 channels (being pushed variously by Boxee and Google) will take off. Certainly, Apple *could* support it, or they might instead push for an Apple-lock-in native app model.

Now if only Tivo would jump into this mix in a useful way...

If TiVo jumped in they'd only have more boxes that no one would buy, using a 10 year old interface.

As far as Roku having this or that and a price point. It doesn't matter. Roku doesn't have a name. No one except some random geek is going to buy a Roku when it's sitting next to an AppleTV at the same price point. If it was half the price of the Apple TV then it would get some additional sales from people who are very frugal. In every case, investing money in the Roku solution is throwing money away. Might as well just put it in an envelope and send it to me, I'll put it to better use. Roku has only a poor track record for supporting its products and a fantastic track record for abandoning its products.

Yes, Boxee may be the best of the worst. That doesn't make me happy about it. The current software is lacking.

*I wrote a really long post, but through it out for brevity*

Tom, sorry, but you misconstrued my comments. I was merely using a shorthand to refer to the "screen orientation issue," never did I claim they eliminated the feature.

I know you use your iPad at work, but I maintain that you're in the minority, and most people don't need a dedicated mute switch on the iPad, and for a large number of the people who do, I'd be willing to bet that holding the volume down is enough. At the very least, it sounds like an easier procedure than the one to change the orientation, particularly considering the people who use it probably need it more often than you need the mute.

But do you know what would make this entire discussion moot? One simple little option in settings. I will always be a staunch supporter of options.

Anyway, this has really gotten off topic, so I'm going to create a separate post (post, not thread) to talk about Boxee and settop boxes some more. I'm really tired of talking about Apple, and swore I wouldn't get dragged or drag myself into it again, so I give up. You guys win, Apple is always right.

(ps- I'm not saying they don't always have the best product, though. clearly the iPad is [still] better than the competition)

Bruno, I know you said you didn't always like when companies listened to users, but I can't help but applaud Boxee.

Today I received a personal response from Avner Ronen (Boxee founder), addressing the very long email I sent him point by point! He listened to every single part of my email and CC'd two other people, calling to them at several points to work with me on bugs I'd found (like the flickering line and freezing in the photo mode). That's pretty freaking awesome. I'll attempt to list some of the things he said, most of which were very encouraging and might have made up my mind to keep the Box:

• On the difficulty in navigating to local media: "We hear many complaints about it. going to address it. basically enable someone that uses Boxee predominantly for local file playback to make Boxee respect that and when you click Movies, take you to your local movies, etc."
• On the changes to the interface in general from beta: "1.0 is a big change from the Beta, and I believe we'll make more drastic changes down the road. We need to be better in communicating it to users, but we still think there is lots to do in order to make Boxee compete for input 1 on TVs for most users." I'm glad he knows they didn't communicate the transition well.
• "we are going to bring back the sort orders and reverse sort-orders. just not as part of a left menubar, but rather as a button on top."
• On the movie poster thumbnails: "yes it does not cache the thumbs between reboots. we're going to fix it."
• In response to my suggestion that the home screen be made up of favorited items from around the Box: "that's a good idea. we toyed with it in the past without much success. but i hear you."
• Lastly, he even addressed a really silly bug. See, I have a backup of "Batteries Not Included" in my movie folder. The actual title of the movie, though, is "*Batteries Not included," but because Windows won't let me put an asterix in the file name, when Boxee goes out to find that title, it instead finds the alternative title to "Child's Play," which is of course a very different movie

Anyway, I understand your thoughts, Bruno, and agree that the software on the Boxee Box was just not ready. But this email gave me a decent amount of confidence that they might be on the right track.

It's at least something.

Woah. I said that I didn't like it when companies let users DESIGN their products and use customers as a replacement for lack of vision on their part.

Every company should be responsive to users and I'd argue that what Avner did with your email and has been doing with many others, is good PR to try and put out a flaming storm that has landed since the Box's release. I still think the top-mounted options pales in comparison to the left-side implementation they had before.

Did you happen to mention anything about only showing 8 covers in the new UI? Not being able to mark shows/movies as watched? Being able to filter on watched, etc..

Oh, you'd love TiVo's new "HD" user interface. The main bug is that it's remarkably sluggish. A secondary bug is that it doesn't handle the arrow-keys in a transparent way to how the classic interface works. And, naturally, several of the newer features, such as the Pandora support, are only available on the HD user interface.

Assuming TiVo got some competent staff, I imagine there's plenty of horsepower inside the new machines to pull off a very nice HD user interface.

Yep, just like you misconstrued Bruno's comments too. But hey, I'm wrong, he's wrong, and whatever.

You know what. Screw this. Every time I try to explain something from a different point of view, one that at least tries to show the thought process that probably goes on at Apple, I drive people away from the discussion. Ok, fine. I get the hint.

So yeah. I give up too.

This is probably just the result of a lot of stress I have currently from moving to a new city where I don't know anyone, changing jobs, and so on. So to avoid pissing anyone else off here for now, and for the good of the community, I'm going to take a leave for a while. Admins have my cell phone number if they need to reach me if the server craps out. They also know the procedures for approving new users. It's in their hands now. I'll be back one day.

Tom, don't leave because of a stupid disagreement about the switch on the side of a computing device. Sorry to hear you're stressed and everything, but stick around the board. At least you know people here.

I'll send you a PM.

I won't. Every option doubles the amount of testing to be done and increases training and support costs. Every time we, as software developers, think "I can't decide which is better; I'll let the user decide", we've messed up.

I used to think this was nonsense, until I saw my first iPhone. Now I wholehearted agree (though I think there are still some classes of highly technical software were more options are still good).

This is so true. I have said for a long time that most development teams do not properly measure the complexity cost of adding a single checkbox.

Okay, I can see that from a programmer's point of view. But for a user, especially here, I think a number of people would say "okay, you changed it, but why can't I choose to change it back?"

Because it's double the amount of testing. The correct choice would have been not to change it and leave it as an orientation lock. Having an option in settings somewhere is just nonsense.

If you want it bad enough and don't want Apple to test for it (we're talking about Apple, not Boxee on this one right?) then I'm sure someone will release a Jailbreak-only patch for it someday.

With regards to Boxee, they too should not have changed over their UI completely and instead focused on actually fixing the problems and bugs with the previous UI. Now they have a brand new mess to deal with and have to try and hack back support for features that already existed in the old version into a framework and concept that likely was never designed to accept them in the first place.

It's not just from the development point of view- it' also (mainly, IMO) a usability issue. Every option adds complexity to the user experience- sometimes it's worth it because the flexibility is worth it, but often it is not. You and I probably represent the user base that can deal relatively easily with the complexity added by options- but the majority of users will be confused and overwhelmed fairly easily. I learned this lesson much earlier in my career when developing for a wide user base. It's a bit maddening, but often delivering a clear, consise pathway through the product trumps functionality.

Now this isn't true for products with a user base of more technically minded people- so a product like Visual Studio benefits from flexibility, but something like the iPad is marketed toward a broader base and many of its users are going to be frustrated and confused by options that are not necessary. They don't want to think about how to mute, they just want to know how to do it with their device. Note that I dont have an opinion on that specific example- just making a broader point about software development.

It's easy enough to hide options from the casual user yet present them to people who go searching.

True, but every option has to be QA'd. More options equals more QA resources needed, or less QA attention per feature.

Using the Apple example again: How would an non-techy react if on one iPad the switch locked orientation and on another it muted the device? Where would they find the setting? Would they even think to themselves that a setting must exist?

This is the reason the option was changed to mute - to match the iPhone. IMO, the devices are different enough where I think it could have been left the way it was however. I do think there should not be a setting to modify the hardware button though.

I'm interested to see how the mute switch actually works on the iPad.

On iOS 3.x on the iPad holding down the down volume rocker mutes. It mutes all the audio.

On iOS on the iPhone the mute switch only mutes notifications, ringing etc To mute the whole audio you need to turn the volume all the way down.

What will the mute switch on iOS 4.2 actually mute on the iPad ? Will holding down the down rocker on the iPad still mute all the audio ? Will holding down the rocker on the iPhone how be a quick way to mute all audio ?