No doubt, this question may have been asked before. But searching the technical group backwards didn't give me the answers. Anyhow, I have recently installed a new audio system in my vehicle. This includes an alpine amp, with a sub-woofer, and the Panasonic CQ-DFX99 which also controls its 8-CD Changer in the back. It is pretty much full with all that it can take; but the beauty of this system (and main reason I bought it) is that this deck comes with a stereo AUX in connection, that is source selectable from the face. Seems its the only deck that has this feature. Primarily, if a laptop or some HPC running an MP3 player is available, I can simply plug in its output through my deck and listen to its collection. I am on the empeg waiting list, and before I buy one; its connection and operation details should be cleared up. I don't have its user manual ofcourse so that is why I am asking how this thing hooks up. And replacing my primary deck is *not* an option. So with my current setup, how would the empeg system be integrated?

I figure all I need is supply power to it, and connect its stereo out into the Panasonics' stereo AUX in; and voila! MP3 on the go. Thats my assumption, anybody care to elaborate on this. How about some more detailed electrical specs. and pinout diagrams?

No pinout diagrams are necessary. The Empeg uses standard stereo line-level outputs, and those can be routed to any standard stereo line-level input (which can be found on many other car stereos these days, not just the one you described). They are clearly-labeled, standard-sized stereo RCA connectors.

However, if you have a CD changer, sometimes that is already taking up the Aux In jack on your head unit and you won't be able to add the Empeg directly into the system. So that could make things a little more complicated...

Since the Empeg comes with an Aux In as well, you could "Daisy Chain" the system if you wanted to. For example Changer-->HeadUnit-->Empeg-->Amps, or Changer-->Empeg-->HeadUnit-->Amps if you like. The only drawback to such a system is that the Empeg would need to be plugged in and turned on for the other components to make any sound.

There are also ways to buy/build a multi-input switch box, but that's probably more complicated than what you're after. See the "Installations" thread (farther down the main page) for more information on such a switch box.

All of the above complexites are due to the fact that cars and car stereos usually assume that you want only a single audio source, or occasionally two sources if you have a CD changer. No manufacturers have planned for the complexities of three sources like that.

But to be totally honest, the audio connections will be the least of your worries. The difficult part is going to be mounting the Empeg. If you don't have a free DIN-sized dash opening, there's not going to be a good place to put the thing. The mounting sleeve is designed to go into a dash opening, and there's no mounting brackets supplied for unusual custom-mount applications. You'll be totally on your own in that respect.

I often see folks talk about how they plan to add the Empeg on to an existing system like yours, and I honestly don't see the need for it. I'm much happier being completely CD-free, with the Empeg being my only stereo. It's not like it's somehow "substandard", and only good for supplemental music. It's a great primary stereo system, and it's better than any CD changer could ever be.

So you should consider replacing your head unit and changer with the Empeg. Although you can add it to an existing system, it will look much more professional and be much easier to use if it's the primary stereo. That's what it was designed to do.



Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

The empeg also has an aux input, and you may well be better off connecting your existing head into it rather than vice versa. You will then be able to take advantage of the empeg 20 band paramatric equaliser when playing CD's on your existing head.

Connecting it the other way (empeg into your Panasonic) maybe be easier to wire, though, especially if you don't currently use external amplifiers.

Whichever option you go for, you'll need the physical space to fit a second DIN head unit.

Rob

It's not the only deck with an aux button on the front... My JVC CD/MD head unit has such a button, and I run the empeg through the line in's with no problems (and no grounding lead noise etc either... =)
However, as I hardly listen to MD in the car anymore (unless I'm leaving the empeg at home) it's become little more than an expensive volume control.. =)

Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)

However, as I hardly listen to MD in the car anymore (unless I'm leaving the empeg at home) it's become little more than an expensive volume control..

This is my point... Adding the Empeg onto an existing stereo is kind of a waste because it immediately makes the existing stereo obsolete.


Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Don't you love technology!. :)

I have the room to mount the empeg under the existing deck in the free "DIN". The wiring was my greatest concern at this point.
Thank you for the great info; now I can continue saving up for the empeg with more confidence. Some updated pictures of the upcoming new unit would be nice though. I will still keep the main audio system though. Many times people jump into my car with a CD that they would like to listen to. Especially for long trips; with no time to rip everything into mp3 format and download. So its easier to bring the CD. But hey, its your perogitive. Whatever works, I say.

I have the room to mount the empeg under the existing deck in the free "DIN". The wiring was my greatest concern at this point.

Oh, jeez, then you're all set. Having a free DIN space makes it easy. You just need to choose which unit is the last one in the chain: Your head unit or the Empeg. I liked Rob's suggestion: Using the Empeg as the last one in the chain so that you can make use of its incredibly powerful equalizer.

Many times people jump into my car with a CD that they would like to listen to. Especially for long trips; with no time to rip everything into mp3 format and download.

You have a good point. That's literally the only drawback of the Empeg- the fact that you can't stick a CD directly into the thing. I know a friend who says that he likes being able to rip the cellophane off of a new CD and stick it into his car player as soon as he gets out of the record store. That's his rationale for not buying an Empeg.

But you know what? It's not really a drawback. You see, I never buy my CDs at a record store anyway. I buy them from amazon.com. And when the UPS man arrives, I just stick them straight into the computer and begin ripping them (the CD's, not the UPS man).

And besides, it won't be a drawback for long. One day, we'll be buying our music online and directly downloading it to our computers, skipping the UPS man completely. Then the balance will shift and a direct-connect device like the Empeg will be an advantage instead of a drawback. Everyone else will still be burning their custom CDs on their burners, while I've already downloaded my tunes into the Empeg and I'm off and listening to them on the road.

The music business is a-changin'. Mark my words, you'll see. We'll be buying our music direcly from the artists online, without the sticky mess of a record company getting between the listeners and the artists. We'll buy it by-the-song instead of by-the-album, too. You can already buy a They Might Be Giants album in this fashion...


Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

My solution to the CD problem is mounting the AUX RCA jacks from the empeg in an accessable place. That way, my portable CD player or laptop can hook in to the cars speakers without having to use the tape adaptor I currently have. I typicially have either one in the car, and since my laptop has media controls on the front accessable with the lid closed, it can sit in the seat playing, and I can easially change tracks and such on the CD without looking at the laptop just as I can with the portable CD player. And so that way I can play that new CD on the way home. (Typicially both game or music CD's get this treatment).

As for buying electronicially and obtaining an electronic copy, I don't see this as the only way of getting music in the future. I still like the physical mediums too much. So many other people out there do as well. Having a physical medium is a good way of ensuring a lightning strike or other electronics damaging event won't wipe out all copies of something. Unless I had burned the They Might Be Giants MP3 album to CD, a lightning strike could have wiped out all my copies of it that I maintain on 3 different hard drives. Sure, APC would be paying for the equipment, but they can't pay for any data lost.

My empeg site is:http://24.236.3.131/empeg/

I don't see this as the only way of getting music in the future. I still like the physical mediums too much.

You're right, of course. There will always be physical methods for distributing music. Direct downlod is the most efficient method, though, and will end up being preferred by a big segment of the population. And in some cases, as with independent artists, it will be the primary method of distribution. Fortunately, these days even independent artists with shoestring budgets can have audio CD's professionally duplicated for physical sale. The only reason to have record companies these days is the marketing machines that get the artists noticed. And even that is slowly changing...

Having a physical medium is a good way of ensuring a lightning strike or other electronics damaging event won't wipe out all copies of something.

The issue of backups is an important one, of course. But it's not much different from the physical-medium-loss issue. If I don't make a backup of an Audio CD, I can lose it to carelessness (scratching) or theft-- both of which have happened to me. In fact, I've lost more music to physical damage and theft than I have to computer failure.

Unless I had burned the They Might Be Giants MP3 album to CD, a lightning strike could have wiped out all my copies of it that I maintain on 3 different hard drives.

Interesting side point... As much as I am a fan of TMBG (and as much as I champion the idea of selling music that way), I didn't end up buying any of those tracks. The partial samples they had for download didn't thrill me too much. Which is really a great testimony in itself... Distributing music that way can allow me to choose which tracks I like or dislike. That way, you don't end up going through the old "buy a whole album just for one good song" thing.




Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

And besides, it won't be a drawback for long. One day, we'll be buying our music online and directly downloading it to our computers, skipping the UPS man completely. Then the balance will shift and a direct-connect device like the Empeg will be an advantage instead of a drawback. Everyone else will still be burning their custom CDs on their burners, while I've already downloaded my tunes into the Empeg and I'm off and listening to them on the road.

I'm waiting for this day, but I doubt it will come anytime soon. The RIAA is a monstrously huge behemoth with billions of dollars at its back that it willingly throws at anyone trying to innovate in the area of making online digital music purchases a reality. They aren't going to stop these kind of tactics anytime soon, unless some laws get changed, because right now most of them lean in their favor.

I guess it also draws the line of which artists are more interested in people listening to their music or the check they receive from the label. If digital music purchasing is going to make any headway, they certainly aren't going to be charging 16.99$ for 12 tracks (10 of which people will probably only listen to once or twice then only listen to the other 2 "popular" songs). The artists are going to make (I would think) much more money with sticking with RIAA's monopoly than offering their own music independantly over the net. Sooo... something is going to have to give... and I don't think it's going to take place anytime in the near future.

So, that's why I installed my CD deck in conjunction with my empeg. That, and it gets much better reception than the empeg.. (Yes, I know that is changing with the MK2's but that is still what, 3? 4? 5? months away?) and having a CD deck is much better than not having CD ability, because my friends often bring albums of their own they want to just pop in. Before I installed the CD deck, they were like "what, you spent 1200$ on that thing and it can't even play CDs?!?!?"..

Down with the RIAA!

(O|||||O)

Keep in mind that the sled and Empeg-Car are fit for a eruo-sized DIN. If you've got a vehicle in the US you'll most likely have to do some dash milling to emplace the sled.

Also, the sled isn't flimsy stamped metal. It's very flex/bend resistant. This means any milling you do will need to be highly accurate; no problem for a patient installer (self or pro) with the right tools.

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

The RIAA is a monstrously huge behemoth with billions of dollars at its back...

The only power held by the RIAA is what's granted it by the record companies, and, in turn, the artists represented by the record companies. Their purpose is to protect the interests of the record companies' profits. But if an artist goes indie, breaks his ties with the record company, and decides to sell his music in MP3 format, there's nothing that the RIAA can say about it because the artist isn't doing anything illegal or even immoral. There's also nothing that the RIAA can do to stop the MP3 format itself. That cat's already out of the bag.

You're right in that the CD format will continue to be around for a long, long time. CD players will not become obsolete for quite a while. I just happen to be in a position where I can treat CDs as a temporary delivery medium, and use MP3 as my primary music source.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

And so that way I can play that new CD on the way home. (Typicially both game or music CD's get this treatment).

Good God. Please give us 24 hours notice as to what freeways you will be travelling on subsequent to your purchase of Unreal: Tournament.

Corby
6-Gig Blue, SN#320

I already bought it and discovered it did the same thing as Unreal, it used MOD's instead for the music. (I then converted them to WAV then to MP3 to load onto the empeg). Thinking back, the only recent game that I have bought that I could enjoy the music to on the way home is Myst: Masterpiece Edition. It came with a second CD containing the entire soundtrack.

This brings up another wish for the empeg, mod support. I'd get the same quality music from my collection of mods in a much smaller package.

My empeg site is:http://24.236.3.131/empeg/

I concur with Drakino about MOD support -- although I'm willing to wait for it. While MODs have been around for a while, the masses at large don't know what the heck they are. While I have a fairly large collection of them containing music from independent electronica artists (i.e. geeks with computer talent and musical inclinations) who made music for the sake of music -- not money ... I'm an exception to the rule and so is music in that format these days.

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

By MOD's I assume you're talking about SoundTracker and related formats?

We have a bit of history with Stracker - Hugo wrote the first player for the Acorn Archimedes computer (the machine that brought about the ARM processor) just over ten years ago. His company of the time then released Tracker, an 8 track soundtracker-look-alike for the Arch, which was quite cool at the time.

I would imagine that a player would compile for the empeg without much effort - for that matter, I'll bet that Hugo's original ARM code would run without too much additional effort! Integrating it into the player as a seemless codec would take a little more work, though.

I'm not sure it would be a good marketing move for us to support something as outdated as SoundTracker, but you could easily encode all your fave MOD's into MP3!

Rob

Your assumption is correct, although I used Fast Tracker and now use Mad Tracker. (Quite an interesting hitory altman's got, btw. =])

I've slowly been converting MOD->WAV->MP3. As a methodology is available, I'm in no hurry for MOD support. However, once you've hit that maintenance/support zone that always comes after major releases are done and the feature creep slows -- it might be possible and even reasonable to support older formats.

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

I've been looking for a DOS program to convert MOD's to WAV's so that I can automate the process of making them MP3's. How are you converting yours? I have a lot of MOD's and I'd like to convert them all but I don't want to sit at my computer all day.

I've slowly been converting MOD->WAV->MP3

I'd have to agree that it's not a feature I have to see right now, but it would be a nice thing to have somewhere down the road. Right now, only a few MOD's exist on my unit due to their size when going to MP3. (Someone at empeg make sure I order at least a 20gig Mark 2, I need it :-)

I need to go back and convert some of my favorites and try to squeeze them in. I think I still have most of U4ia's on zip disk somewhere.

My empeg site is:http://24.236.3.131/empeg/

Then again, if you only have your music on a physical medium, then if it ever gets stolen, then it's gone.

Calvin

I have some files with the extension .S3M. They're kind of neat. Are these a variation on the mod format?

Another question about mods: Are they supposed to sound identical regardless of the player, or will they sound different if the player implements the playback differently?



Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

I have some files with the extension .S3M. They're kind of neat. Are these a variation on the mod format?

Yes. S3M files are produced with legendary Scream Tracker. That's a PC/MSDOS module tracker, something like 7-8 years ago. All those mod formats refer to tracker based music, which means that you have a set of samples that you can use and play them on different frequency and apply some effects to them, such as panning. Basically, they are like midi music but with a custom instrument set in each file (and with a lot more twisted effects than in midi files).

Another question about mods: Are they supposed to sound identical regardless of the player, or will they sound different if the player implements the playback differently?

Basically they should sound identical regardless of the player, but that's only in case that players would implement all commands/features correctly. Different kind of pannings, etc. might be implemented differently and some players might lack some commands and so on.

Oh, those days were the golden days :)

Kim

Yes. S3M files are produced with legendary Scream Tracker.

Let's see how well you know your trivia. For a big chocolate chip cookie, what PC demo group created the Scream Tracker (.S3M) format?

Oh, those days were the golden days :)

I love nostalgia, and thinking of the old school PC demo days brings a tear to my eye. (Me and a buddy ran one of the top PC demo boards in the States back around 8 or so years ago, back when the PC demo scene was in its fledgling years... Anyone remember the Creativity Demo Network?)

If you were around in that era, our board was called The End of TiME. Ever hear of it? We were the biggest competition for the Powergrid at the time (A PC demo board that Syntax Error ran).

Ahh how times have changed.

(O|||||O)

Isn't there a mod plugin for winamp?
You could set the output to a directory, setup a playlist and leave it go...
(That's assuming the mod plugin for winamp is any good.. =)

Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)

I've got some Stracker things floating round on my hard disc, along with the serial block drivers, also written by Hugo... =)
However, If I remember correctly, the Stracker modules were 8bit, and Impulse tracker (.it) and scream tracker (.s3m) use mostly 16 bit samples...
Also, doesn't the Arch have an 8bit log output?
Still, I get quite a lot of mods from Kosmic so a mod plugin option would be nice (There must be a linux mod player somewhere that we can use... =)

Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)

"they certainly aren't going to be charging 16.99$ for 12 tracks ... The artists are going to make (I would think) much more money with sticking with RIAA's monopoly..."

Right on the first count, wrong on the second, I think... They'll be charging $2.00 for a song, not $16.99 for an album.... but... the artist will be pocketing more from that $2.00 song (like, about $2.00) than the record label is giving him for his $16.99 album (like, penneys or dimes.)

Admittedly, the artist won't be getting the promotion provided by the record companies.... but a great deal of that promotion can be done by the artist himself -- primarily, contacting radio stations, sending them demos, coaxing airplay out of program directors. Established artists in particular can benefit from direct distribution, as their reputation will give them considerable self promotion right from the start. I mean, would you hesitate to risk $2.00 on a song you had never heard by (insert your favorite artist name here...) ? I'd take the chance...

The artist will make more money selling 100,000 MP3's than he'll make selling three times that many albums. Tfabris is right -- we're riding the crest of a wave of change that will make today's music distribution business obsolete in just a few years.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Let's see how well you know your trivia. For a big chocolate chip cookie, what PC demo group created the Scream Tracker (.S3M) format?

Electromotive Force (b.k.a. EMF). They're inactive these days -- but Edge is still around...

-- Bleys


"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

I've been looking for a DOS program to convert MOD's to WAV's so that I can automate the process of making them MP3's.

I use Fast Tracker II -- it runs in DOS and is shareware.


How are you converting yours?

I convert the MOD to a WAV with Fast Tracker II. I then take the WAV and convert it to MP3 using the Xing encoder (a command-line DOS encoder that must be purchased).

-- Bleys


"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

Let's see how well you know your trivia. For a big chocolate chip cookie, what PC demo group created the Scream Tracker (.S3M) format?

Well, that's an easy one - it was PSI from Future Crew. And coincidentally I also happen to know those people and quite some others also on the old demoscene days. Lord Bleys' guess of it being EMF is wrong, Edge/EMF just wrote some documentation for it - as he mainly was a musician.

I love nostalgia, and thinking of the old school PC demo days brings a tear to my eye. (Me and a buddy ran one of the top PC demo boards in the States back around 8 or so years ago, back when the PC demo scene was in its fledgling years... Anyone remember the Creativity Demo Network?)

Well, now that we got in - I also ran a highly demoscene oriented BBS called Triplex for over five years here in Finland. My BBS was running with three nodes and also was a part of CDN for some time.

If you were around in that era, our board was called The End of TiME. Ever hear of it? We were the biggest competition for the Powergrid at the time (A PC demo board that Syntax Error ran).

Yes, it rings a bell - probably I've read some messages that was sent on your board thru CDN. But the big internet pretty much made BBS'es not worth keeping anymore for some years ago already. But it's nice to notice the same kind of spirit in here also, where there are fairly small amount of people but which all are interested in the same kind of things.

Ahh how times have changed.

Yes - and a good observation again how small the world actually is :)

Kim

You may find this interesting:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/000228-000015.html

That's what I'm doing now, but I'd like to convert MODs in batches of 100. I guess I could set up a playlist in Winamp and just let it run and when it's finshed set up a batch file to encode them all, but I'd like to get them all in one run so I could start with the MOD's, run the batch file, and next morning have a couple hundred MP3's.

Isn't there a mod plugin for winamp?

I don't think that Prof. Fisher's proposed distribution concept will be the new paradigm.

Two things he does not address here are: a) the inherent lack of structure and thus the uncontrollability of the internet; and b) the fact that
after the initial production cost all subsequent inventory costs nothing. This leads to some interesting pricing possibilities.

Prof. Fisher's concept of some regulating body (like ASCAP or BMI does now) to oversee the distribution and pricing of digitally distributed music is unlikely given the unfettered nature of the internet, where in all probability most of the music distribution will occur. I don't envision artists or purchasers welcoming another layer of bureaucracy that can only add inconvenience and expense to what would otherwise be a straightforward transaction. If it is more advantageous for an artist to sell directly to his customers, there is no way to force him to do otherwise.

Because the costs of production and distribution are effectively zero (after the music is actually created, that is) this gives rise to fantastic
opportunities for agressive price reduction through volume. It is not unreasonable to suppose that prices for music distributed on the internet could be set so low that it is literally more cost effective to buy it than to go to the trouble of pirating it. Sort of like the unfulfilled promise of nuclear energy that "...would be too cheap to meter." Would an artist rather sell 10,000 copies of his work at $1.00 a copy, or 1,000 copies at $10 a copy? Particularly if he sells directly to the consumer with no middleman? I think he'd take the high-volume low-margin model if for no other reason than more exposure leads to more sales later on.

I guess the biggest problem involved in this kind of direct distribution is handling the bookkeeping. The first model that comes to my mind is, of course, the credit card, but there may well be other methods I am not familiar with for handling internet credit transactions.

Anyway, I think we're going to see some big changes in the music business in the very near future. Look how quickly CDs replaced vinyl
records... this shift could come just as quickly.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

It is not unreasonable to suppose that prices for music distributed on the internet could be set so low that it is literally more cost effective to buy it than to go to the trouble of pirating it.

Good point. As it stands right now, the cost of producing audio CDs En Masse is practically nil. The real costs are in marketing and distribution. If an artist distributes through the internet, that's half the equation. The other half is tough, though. The marketing engines of the record companies are heavily entrenched and it will take a while for this to shift. It'll happen, but slowly. For a while, it'll be like it is right now: you'll only see indie music and unknown artists distributed on the 'net. But one day, there will be a major announcement: a big-name artist will deliberately allow his record company contract to lapse, and will go indie so that they can distribute and market their music exclusively via the internet. Then the world will wake up to the possibility of direct artist-consumer relations and we'll see the culmination of this little revolution. All it'll take is one really big artist. Who's up for the challenge?

I guess the biggest problem involved in this kind of direct distribution is handling the bookkeeping. The first model that comes to my mind is, of course, the credit card, but there may well be other methods I am not familiar with for handling internet credit transactions.

Already there. Check out PayPal. This is one of those "Slap your forehead and say DUH" ideas that I wish I'd thought of first.



Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Lord Bleys' guess of it being EMF is wrong, Edge/EMF just wrote some documentation for it - as he mainly was a musician.

Doh! No cookie for me. =[

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

Well, that's an easy one - it was PSI from Future Crew. And coincidentally I also happen to know those people and quite some others also on the old demoscene days. Lord Bleys' guess of it being EMF is wrong, Edge/EMF just wrote some documentation for it - as he mainly was a musician.

*hands a big chocolate chip cookie to kim and gives Lord Bleys an E for effort*

Well, now that we got in - I also ran a highly demoscene oriented BBS called Triplex for over five years here in Finland. My BBS was running with three nodes and also was a part of CDN for some time.

I believe I actually called your board. I vaguely remember the name. Ahh the good old days when I called around various countries for the pure joy of it.

Yes, it rings a bell - probably I've read some messages that was sent on your board thru CDN. But the big internet pretty much made BBS'es not worth keeping anymore for some years ago already. But it's nice to notice the same kind of spirit in here also, where there are fairly small amount of people but which all are interested in the same kind of things.

That is more than likely... We were the CDN USHQ so all the other demo boards around the US ended up sending their mail thru us... I believe we got our feed from Starport (FC's main BBS). And yes, BBS's died because of the internet, which really grew into a place where its kind of hard to find yourself a small group of people that you can really get to know and who are interested in the same stuff you are. Kind of like the demo scene of yesteryear... But you can still find the people.. I guess when people front 1300$ for a car stereo, there is some kind of derived comradare there.. ;)

*proud to have been greeted by Abyss at the end of Future Crew's Second Reality demo*

(O|||||O)

*proud to have been greeted by Abyss at the end of Future Crew's Second Reality demo*

If you're still into demos, have a decent PC with a 3D card - download 3DMark2000 and run the demo mode. It's not as demo-demo as most of the demos you've used to see, as it has a bit different target audience and much larger distribution. Anyway, you'll find some familiar elements in it :)

And yes, you'll find my name from the beginning of credits.

Kim

download 3DMark2000 and run the demo mode.

I love that demo. I keep it around to show the parental types what PCs are
-really- for.

-- Bleys


"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca