Xavyer: "It's funny how you can think all these lofty things about 'voting with your dollars' (meaning, support those suppliers who provide the best product or service), and it doesn't seem to do any good."

Xavyer,

I'd agree with you that the acquisition by Rio/SB was the "beginning of the end" in some sense. I don't completely rule out the possibility, however, that Rio/SB may produce an OEM product in the future based on Empeg code that I may want to buy. I'm skeptical, but will keep my eyes open.

I also appreciate your point about supporting superior suppliers -- voting with our dollars. It's just unfortunate that the number of folks voting with dollars didn't manage to exceed 1000. I still feel in my gut that Rio/SB screwed the pooch when it came to promotion and advertising (to increase that 1000 to ???), but in a period of great economic difficulty for companies like SB (did they overextend like so many other companies?) I have a hard time judging.

Jim

yah empeg sold out you guys sux :-) I feel like I am reading a nofx (or insert what ever punk band you want) bbs or something it's a business for crying out loud

I have a dreamcast and about 20 games now sega stopped making that after about two years and are making games for sony and I don't even get an update (sega's a bunch of sell out's they sux too :-) ) (sorry the sell out thing was too much for me I need to stop reading this thread can't we go back to whining about 1.1 coming out)

32Gig MK2 In 2001 VW Golf TDI

In reply to:

---

For whatever it's worth, in my opinion, the news of the SB buyout of Empeg Ltd. marked the beginning of the end. It was the "Handwriting on the wall", so to speak

---

I had similar feelings. Even though it's pretty much accepted that Empeg would be dead if they hadn't been acquired by SOMEONE with some capital, I think there is some question as to whether SonicBlue was the best suitor. I'm not saying that any other company would have made an immediate earth-shaking profit on the Empeg MkII. But I think that maybe other companies would have had more patience with the product, and maybe let it go until a more marketable MkIII had come about.

My take on things goes like this... At some point before the SonicBlue acquisition, I remember either Hugo or Rob saying something along these lines... In the future, they didn't expect the Empeg to be their meal ticket. Instead, less featured and more "consumer friendly" car players would be their "money makers" and the Empeg would always be more of a "side project" that wouldn't make much money but wouldn't LOSE them money, so they'd be willing to keep it going. Well, the consumer friendly money-making model never had a chance to blossom.

Now we have been told the entire Empeg line is finished, and I put that squarely on the short-sightedness of the parent company. I am NOT a sales genius but I do know that the profits from the less extravagant model could have carried the Empeg as we know it "on its back." This is equivalent to how the Ford Mustang Cobra sells a lot of Mustang V6es (and even Tauruses and Escorts), and just as Johnny Walker Blue Label sells a lot of Johnny Walker Red. The high end model is what people lust after, and those who can't afford it will happily settle for the average model until they can.

Maybe if Empeg was acquired by Creative Labs, or Pioneer, or Aiwa things would have been different. (Yes, I'm just naming random companies with MP3 interests.) Maybe one of those companies would have had the patience to let the affordable less geeky model evolve, and maybe they would have given the Empeg people the freedom to keep the "flagship" model alive.

Instead, SonicBlue has decided that the "fringe" Empeg project is an unwanted nuisance in their efforts to turn the Empeg intellectual property into a moneymaker. I think every company has a right to make money, but I also think it would be great for a company's image to have a high-end model to put on the covers of magazines to get their name out. And THAT would lead to MORE profit on the middle and lower price points.

To summarize, I think killing the Empeg project is actually a POOR business decision, despite the trend away from aftermarket and towards OEM. I believe that the MkII could have driven up sales of more consumer friendly models. And I'm upset that SonicBlue wouldn't put a few more chips on the table to give that a chance.

All of that said, I love my Empeg, I greatly appreciate the time and effort put into it by the Empeg team, and I hope to see Empeg's software showing up in more gadgets in the future. I also am appreciative of SonicBlue at least taking a chance on a small company like Empeg. But next time, stay in the game for more than a year before you kill a flagship product.

-Tony
MkII #554

Hey Jim...go back and re-read both of my posts on this thread. I said both times that I love my Empeg (as long as it keeps working) and will continue to enjoy using it.. Even more when 2.0 comes out. That doesn't change my view of Rio for what they have done here...and to some extent the folks in Cambridge (sorry guys, but that's how I see it).

I'm sorry that you feel that you now feel a need to take personal cracks at my personality because I feel this way.

I really hope that in the coming months or next couple years that not too many will get burned with $2000 heaps of metal that can't be fixed because there's no support for it. I bought my Empeg about a year ago. I can't even remember what the warranty is(guessing a year), but I certainly had full expections to use it for at least 3-5 years....for the $2000 that it cost me. Any comparisons that people have made to computer games which are not supported on new platforms is a ridiculous comparison. They don't cost $2000 for starters.

After hearing some of Hugo's comments (not Rob's..he takes everything too personally and gets all upset over everything). After hearing Hugo's comments on this thread and a few others...I can see that he definitely wants to try as hard as he can to support us Empeg users for as long as he possibly can. For example...putting photos up of how to fix the Empeg ourselves when it breaks. This isn't exactly the same thing as being able to send my pioneer deck into a pioneer service center to get fixed, but at least its SOMETHING and I appreciate the fact that he cares to do that notwithstanding this news that Rio is going to discontinue the carplayer(which probably comes as a great dissappointment to the guys in Cambridge as well). The only acceptable response from those folks right now is "We never meant to 'screw you over' and we hope to make every effort to support you for as long as we can". This has essentially been Hugo's response. Rob's response has been more along the lines of "You don't have any idea what you're talking about so shut up". Wrong answer. All I want to know is that if and when my Empeg breaks 2 years after buying it...that I will be able to get it fixed. If I can't...then I am going to be one pissed off dude... And mark my words...this wil happen sooner or later to somebody somewhere...and after spending this kind of dough..you can rest assured they are going to be ticked off people.

You think someone who walks into CarToys today and buys a Rioplayer is going to be happy in 18 months from now if it doesn't work...and he can't get it fixed? Hello.... He's going to be ticked. You can't market a consumer product (and regardless of the geek factor...this has absolutely been marketed as a consumer product...for sale in car audio dealerships such as CarToys)....you can't market a consumer product for $1000-$2000 and expect your consumers to be anything less than completely pissed off when it breaks 2 years later and can't be fixed. That is simply wrong. If they put a big sign on all the marketing material and on the website that says "Buy a disposable car player today for only $999" then maybe that would be fair. But there is most definitely an unwritten (or perhaps it is written somewhere in some consumer protection document) that if you buy a product that doesn't imply "disposable"...that its not disposable and you should be able to continue using it for years to come. I'm not about to pursue something like this...so don't take it this way, but class action suits happen all the time over false advertising and other such craziness.

Believe me, I appreciate how cool the Mk2 is. I'm going to be one bummed out dude when it doesn't work anymore. But if I could go back in a time machine...I'm not at all sure whether I would have spent that kind of money if I knew that a year later they were going to pull the plug on being able to support it, get parts, fix it when it breaks, etc..

Say what you want about me...it makes no difference. But the Empeg WAS a great product. The business decisions that have occurred in the past year...not so great. Call it what you want. Call it "Selling out", "screwing us over", or less colorful and more politically correct ways of showing your dissappointment. The fact remains that over the next few months and few years....the guys in Cambridge will show their TRUE colors of how they will support those of us that bought this machine from them. I will wait and hope that I am not dissappointed. I hope that everything I am saying right now turns out to be completely unwarranted.

In the meantime... I will add that I'm glad that the software technology the Cambridge guys developed will end up in other future Rio products (though I may be boycotting Rio now anyway). Even if my Empeg becomes a $2000 paper weight...at least there should be some other cool products coming out with Empeg technology inside.. So good luck with that guys..

Bummer - been so busy working that I hadn't checked in for a while. Thank you Rob and Hugo. You guys rock. Hope we all stay in touch. If you guys are ever out in the Bay area again, look me up. I'll buy the beer.

- Jon

Try calling up microsoft and getting tech support for windows 3.0. Try finding replacement parts for a 20 yr old TV. Once a product stops being manufactured, support will only last for so long on that product. What did you expect? My examples aren't so good, but the principle is the same. Hugo has given repeated assurances that he will help us out in any way he can. Maybe a few extra fascias could be run before the tools get worn out and have to be thrown away. I think those are the only parts that can't be found and replaced.

I'm very sad that this excellent product will stop being made, but im sure the mk3 will live on in a future oem product that we may be interested in purchasing. I appreciate everyone answering my sometimes redundant and stupid questions over the last 2 years. This is the closest interaction between deveopers and users I have ever seen, I really felt like if someone had a good idea, the empeg guys would implement it if at all possible.

I hope the regulars on this board stay here, this is probably the most intelligent group of people I have ever interacted with!

To Rob, Hugo, and the rest of the Empeg team, thanks for all of your hard work! To Tony and Dionysus, great work on the faq! Hopefully it will be easier to browse on the new riocar.org site when its finished.

Sean

Not to beat a dead horse...but if I get 20 years of use out of my Empeg I will be ecstatic! Hell, if I get 5 years out of my Empeg I will be completely satisfied. Of course you can't expect a company to support a product for 20 years. But 1 year? 2 years? 3 years? Even 5 years...is completely appropriate.

Dude, I'm going to try to let this thread die a peaceful death. Was I taking "personal cracks at your personality"? I don't think so. For starters, it somehow seems that would be redundant. All I was saying is that when you boldly say "I'm entitled to any opinion I want to have", you are 1000 percent correct. It just doesn't mean that the opinion in question is well-reasoned.

SOLD OUT! SOLD OUT! Well, that seems like a pretty harsh, upper-case accusation on your part. I just don't see it. Try something like "They made the best decisions they could given market conditions". Hell, maybe they even made a big mistake. I know, YOU would have persevered and developed the product while living on bread and water whilst holed up in some rat-infested garret, eh? (You ARE developing an Empeg Mark 3 clone I'm told.) Alternatively, YOU would have sold the operation to the multimedia conglomerate that was GUARANTEED to develop Empeg iterations Mark 4, 5, and 6.

Don't get me wrong, man. I'm not exactly thrilled. OK, OK, I only spent $1400 or so, but that ain't chump change. OK, OK, so Hugo is perhaps a bit more sympathetic to your/our plight. Rob has fielded a million questions on this BBS with what I would consider accuracy, openess, and good grace. OK, so he didn't swab your brow with a damp cloth. He is, after all, British. What's all this "SOLD OUT" [censored], though??

I hope that both you and I enjoy our Empegs for many months to come. Failing that, if you find that you twist and turn every night and just can't get a good 8 hours of winkie, my buy-out offer still stands.

Jim

The decision that has been made is that the new model will not be sold by SONICblue, we'll just stick to creating it.

When the time comes, where a company announces said new model, how will we know our Empeg Heros had anything to do with it?

One would think they would be happy to tell us - in one way or another.

re: empeg as a 20year old piece of equipment.

By my count I own 123456789 (nine) computers, ten counting the Empeg. Twelve! I just have to count two palm pilots. They each easily out power the first four computers, combined. Eight of those I consider obsolete. Most were bought in the last ten years. I don't even want to tally the cost. All of them, except for the MicroAce still work like new. The Ace suffers from too much tinkering.

The Empeg may just, for the useful life span, be one of the least expensive gadgets I've bought.

I'm not feeling screwed. Not at all. Just sad, that the Empeg didn't sell big.

well i love my Empeg, and now hate SB, and now it's time to sell my SB stock!

Stephen

jimhogan: I don't completely rule out the possibility, however, that Rio/SB may produce an OEM product in the future based on Empeg code that I may want to buy. I'm skeptical, but will keep my eyes open.

Agreed. I'm skeptical, also; however, time will tell.

jimhogan: I still feel in my gut that Rio/SB screwed the pooch when it came to promotion and advertising (to increase that 1000 to ???), but in a period of great economic difficulty for companies like SB (did they overextend like so many other companies?) I have a hard time judging.

Agreed as well. I can honestly say I never saw an advertisement for the Rio-car. As for whether
or not SB overextended themselves; .... well .... what other conclusions are there? I don't know.

Wanna help me find somebody to install the Empeg in my DeLorean?

ROFL, that's a choice one!

Difference is, I don't think Hugo's ever been picked up on cocaine posession charges... has he?


___________
Tony Fabris

When the time comes, where a company announces said new model, how will we know our Empeg Heros had anything to do with it?

It's never been a secret in the past, no reason it should be a secret in the future.

Deal is, their software is written under modified versions of Linux. The portions of their code representing modified parts of the OS, such as the kernel, must be open-sourced. And their code has their names all over it. So even if we don't know about a given product during development, we will certainly know about it at release time because the source code will be released, too.

___________
Tony Fabris

yn0t_: Even though it's pretty much accepted that Empeg would be dead if they hadn't been acquired by SOMEONE with some capital,

Agreed. That seems self evident. I wondered, on occasion, if that 'exceptional customer support and service' went too far. Of course, this is 'water under the bridge', but it's something I wondered about at one time or another, and in the end, doesn't really matter, now.

You raise a good point in regards to 'flagship' models, etc. I think your point is valid, "Too often the decisions made are based solely on the short sighted bottom line". In our parents/grandparents day (depending, of course, on your age), companies were often run by the engineering visionaries; and these visionaries seem to have been usurped by the bean counters. Rhetorically, the notion begs the question, "What happened to the idea of providing a well made, well thought out product?" Looking around, these seem to be few and far between; and getting farther. Don't get me wrong here, a company MUST make a profit; that is not at issue. I'm questioning the wisdom of making ALL decisions according to the immediacy of 'The Bottom Line' for this financial quarter.

It seems to me that it is much more difficult to guide a corporate entity, successfully, through the murky waters of 'long term goals' than it is to do so through the (seemingly) easier 'short term goals'.

Hell, what do I know? I'm not a CEO.
So, I could be wrong, of course.

Sorry to hear that our howly cow is going dead.. :-(

However, now I can hope the empeg folks will concentrate more on a handheld HDD MP3 player - yuk!

All the best!

If he has, he didn't share any with the rest of us, that's for sure

Rob

It would probably be cobranded, but if not, don't forget that we can't release any Linux based product without releasing the kernel source along with it - I'm sure word will get out!

Rob

We'll meet on the third bench in the north east entrance to Hyde Park at 2 minutes past six on the third Sunday of each month. The password is "Wendy Filter".

Rob

There's a different group for portables at SONICblue. We're mostly involved with home and automotive products, and you'll be seeing some more of our stuff in the not too distant future. You (collective you, not you personally!) can decide then if we've totally abandoned our geek principles

Rob

He is, after all, British

Give me a few more years of working for American companies and I'm sure I'll pass for a native.

I already have my Outlook spell checker set to US English. Mike hates me.

Rob

Can you tell us What kind of NEW products ?

(Dont blame me , I am a French ....)

Nosferatu

I'll Strike From the Grey

When the time comes, where a company announces said new model, how will we know our Empeg Heros had anything to do with it?

If you can't tell, then it can't be that great a product...

Peter

In terms of promotion, Rio Car was taken to quite a lot of shows and other events, but you may be right in your observation that it wasn't widely advertised.

Most of the effort went into the area of Retail - we have a very dedicated retail manager at Rio who is a real enthusiast for the product and created a number of good relationships (Car Toys was the one that has been seen publically).

The current player isn't quite right for the wider market, which almost everyone acknowledges. Retail people want it to look a little different, and in fact have a tick list of changes that most people agree with (BBS users have wished for many of the same things). That means the current product needs to be updated - Mk.3 or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't mean taking away all the cool features, it means making them more friendly, and adding a lot more of them.

SB have a business goal to lead the markets that they address, which is something currently achieved with a number of other SB products. This needs a lot of focus, but the automotive aftermarket is just about sewn up by a number of long established brands with strong channel relationships. Nobody is going to come from outside the space and displace them, and most of them already have or are developing MP3 solutions. Is an empeg going to realistically compete with these players? Or would it stand a much better chance if it were developed _with_ a well known brand?

So now, as we stated, we're building OEM relationships. I'm very sad to see the EOL of the Mk.2 but let's hope that this is really the "Start of Life" for some even better products.

Rob

PS I'm not paid to say this stuff

Of course you can't expect a company to support a product for 20 years. But 1 year?

I think this is indeed the crux of the reason why this thread turned into a bit of an argument. If the Unofficial Announcement had said "All support and further development of the car-player software through both official and unofficial channels is ceasing immediately", then everyone would be entitled to feel [caps]SOLD OUT[/caps] -- including us at Empeg. But it said nothing of the sort: in fact, it said the opposite. That is not, $DEITY willing, the Empeg Way.

Peter

No, I'm going to keep you in suspense until the official announcement

Rob

Well, as I have continously said in every post on this thread...time will tell. I hope your'e right.

In reply to:

---

No, I'm going to keep you in suspense until the official announcement

---

Oh ok, good thing we all get one for free being the hardcore testers we are. Ahum.

hint hint hint ...

Cheers,
Hans


Mk2 - Blue & Red - 080000431

Maybe one of those companies would have had the patience to let the affordable less geeky model evolve,

Okay, I was going to stay out of this thread... but I have to put my two cents in.

People are suggesting that Sonic Blue tried their darndest, but sales just weren't good enough, so being smart business people they pulled the plug -- maybe sooner than they should have.

Bullshit.

In my whole life (a longer time than anybody else on this bbs, by the way) I have never seen such out and out incompetence, mismanagement, and general apathy as demonstrated by Sonic Blue, an organization that is supposed to be a major business on the cutting edge of technology.

Immediately after taking over empeg, what did they do? They closed down the internet store, the only place in the whole world that was selling empegs. It was literally months before it even became possible to buy an empeg, and lots of people wanted to do so. How hard would it have been to turn that website back on? How hard would it have been to get their own website working? Hugo and the guys@empeg managed to get their web store up and working with a staff of less than a dozen people, at the same time developing software and two versions of the hardware. Sonic Blue with a staff of thousands (well, I don't really know, maybe it's just hundreds?) couldn't manage it even given months to do it.

Then, when they (finally) did get some semblance of a store working, they ran it with such a cavalier attitude and such a lack of care or expertise that the typical experience was amazement that they were (a) actually able to contact someone and place an order, and (b) the order arrived with the only problems being it was late and the wrong items were shipped.

Surely Digital River's incompetence was so gross that there must have been a few clues about their abilities before Sonic Blue hired them. How long do you think Crutchfield or Amazon would stay in business if they ran their operation like that?

It was clearly Sonic Blue's intent to buy the empeg development team, and not the empeg car player, and that's what they did. But I have to say that I would be nervous if I were a Sonic Blue employee. Their lack of management expertise borders on the criminal, and that can't bode well for the long-term prospects of the company.

tanstaafl.



"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"