Well Rob, although we all realize that Empeg had to be acquired by SOMEBODY to avoid becoming a casualty of the high production costs, SonicBlue has done little to endear itself to your average Empeg user. While you couldn't possibly comment directly on such an accusation, I think the facts speak for themselves.

We all know the realities of the situation... That it really *is* a small friendly development team, and I'm sure there are a lot of people elsewhere within the SonicBlue corporation who do focus on the customer. But the amazing promise of the Empeg was wasted away by the mid-sized corporation's big-and-bloated-company-like blunders, from the order fulfillment issues, to the complete lack of any perceivable marketing push, to the decision to give up on the RioCar line entirely when something stil could have been salvaged.

SonicBlue's recent RTV 4000 lawsuits are doing even more to make them look like a big bad corporation with no focus on the customer. That is what Joe Slashdot sees, and we wonder why people wouldn't give a $1500 product offering from SonicBlue a chance. The timing of the two announcements (the legal wranglings and the Digital Audio Center product announcement) could not be worse.

My point is that SonicBlue is investing in a lot of technology assets, but seems to be doing their best to make sure none of them succeed. I would venture to say that SonicBlue could purchase Microsoft and run them into the ground within a few years. Though Microsoft might be doing that themselves, these days...

Sorry I'm so critical of the company that signs your paycheck... I just believe all the facts should be out on the table here as we discuss the new product and its future.

Did anybody notice the Slashdot posts grumbling about wanting a general-purpose digital media storage center? Then, did this cause anybody to have flashbacks to our Cambridge friends dorking with the ReplayTV 4000 units?

(It seems like quite a nice box, overall, except I think I would have preferred a case that looked somewhat more like a normal stereo component, or maybe that looked more like the ReplayTV 4000...)

But the amazing promise of the Empeg was wasted away by the mid-sized corporation's big-and-bloated-company-like blunders

For what it's worth, SONICblue has reinvented itself in the last few months. The structure has changed beyond recognition - for the better, I believe. Some of the old problems are not yet solved (customer support for example, but I think you'll agree that Jim Hafner-Eaton has the right approach), but I'm impressed by the group of people I work for and with now.

The automotive situation is going to be a source of anger for many people here, and that's mainly because the new strategy is completely invisible to you. It was time to develop new products (the old car player was ready for EOL even if people were queuing a mile for them) and we're now actively marketing two advanced automotive products to OEM customers - but sadly it's all behind closed doors. Nonetheless I think OEM relationships are the best way for SONICblue to make inroads in the automotive sector, and at some point we should be able to publicise what we have been working on.

I do miss having an own-brand car player, though.

SonicBlue's recent RTV 4000 lawsuits are doing even more to make them look like a big bad corporation with no focus on the customer

I thought the opposite was true.. the features that the networks are suiing over are very customer orientated. The reasoning behind the second lawsuit with Tivo seems clear to anyone who understands how patents are utilised in the USA between corporations, but I certainly can't comment on that. The fact is that the RTV4000 sold it's Q4 allocation in a few days, so it looks like consumers are happy with what they see.

Rob

alright... that's it. Since Tony has one of these (assuming of course that Beta testers get to actually Beta test), I'll definitely be making a stop by on my next trip to Tahoe =].

As you may have worked out, Tony is one of our Beta testers

Yeah, after I made that post, I realized it would be kind of obvious.

What I tested was actually a piece of prototype hardware-- raw electronics in a big square plexiglass case.

I haven't actually tried running DisplayServer on the thing (been afraid to), but EmpegTaxi worked to grab files from it via USB. The only thing is that the USB port timings changed on one of the beta builds and EmpegTaxi quit working (would drop packets). I haven't tried EmpegTaxi against the latest software yet...

Now, your question is why would I WANT to run displayserver and empegtaxi on the thing? Why would I want to grab MP3s off of it?

How about this: it is the single easiest way to rip CDs that I have ever seen. You literally stick a CD into the thing at it does the rest. It is so brain-dead easy it's not even funny.

And the ripper itself is a nice piece of work. It is really good about recovering mangled CDs. I would even be surprised if the new copy-protected CDs were even a slight bit of trouble for it. Although I don't know if anyone's tried a copy-protected CD in it or not.

The ripping is kind of neat... it does a full-bandwidth rip of the raw wave data to the hard disk, then it shelves the encoding as a background task. This allows you to keep feeding it CDs even if the encoding stage isn't complete for a given CD. You can see an icon on the screen which indicates whether it's still encoding or whether it's done with all the background work.

The user interface is very nice. Very simple. Very easy to get stuff done. My only complaint is that it works "sideways" from the empeg-car interface. In the empeg-car, the down button is the confirm/enter button, and on the HSX-109, it's the right button. If you're used to the empeg-car, It takes a little getting used to, you have to remember that you're operating a different device with a different UI and you'll be fine. Once you see the user interface, you'll understand why they did it this way and it all makes sense.

Those who have complained about the CDDB... well, it's no different than if you ripped it yourself. In other words, you will find the occasional typo, the frequent incorrect case on titles, lots of inconsistencies in the artist names, etc. So if you are a stickler for accuracy, then yeah, you still have to go in and fix things. But it's pretty easy to do that from the new Emplode. You can also do it from the front panel with the remote if you like (a bit more cumbersome), or if you happen to have a USB keyboard, you can plug it straight into the thing and do the edits that way. Or you could just shine it on and live with the occasional typo, it's fine if you do that. Most people will just leave the tracks as they are. Only the anal-retentives like me need to worry about fixing CDDB typos.

Broadband connectivity works nicely if you get a $30.00 usb-to-ethernet adapter. Everything is configurable (DHCP, gateway, etc). Or you can just use HPNA connection if you like. My house has really sucky phone wiring so HPNA worked spotty for me. 10BaseT worked great, though. You can get software updates that way. Those are also brain-dead easy. You just pick "Search for new software updates" and it goes and does it. It downloads the entire software update into a temporary file on its hard disk, then applies that as an upgrade file internally. (Note: This is the code that will eventually allow the car player to do software updates with USB or ethernet.)

Sound quality is very good, as you would expect. However, on my prototype box, the outputs were a little "hot" and would occasionally clip. I was told this was a known bug on the prototypes and would be fixed by the time the hardware went into production.

It squirts tunes into portables very easily. I don't know if anyone caught this in its description, but it automatically stores two different bitrates of each rip: One for regular playback and one for the portables. You can choose what those bitrates are. You also have the option (the beta testers bludgeoned the empeg guys into adding this feature) to completely prune all of the extra for-portables rips just in case you want to store only full-bandwidth tunes on its hard disk.

There's no option to squirt tunes into the Empeg Car yet. I sure hope it gets in there soon. My dream is to use this thing to re-rip my entire collection at 256.

If you want to add a bigger hard disk, it should be very easy. Just plug the new disk in, feed it the software installation CD (comes with it), and follow the on-screen prompts to "restore to AS NEW" and it'll wipe the hard disk and repartition it for you.

My overall impression of the thing is as follows: It is SO MUCH BETTER than using your PC as a music server. In the same way that the Empeg Car is better than any other car-based music solution, this is better than any home-based music solution. Combined with one or more Receivers it's awesome.

See, we don't need a marketing department, we have Tony!

Rob

As you may have worked out, Tony is one of our Beta testers - as is Rob Schofield.

So, where do the rest of us sign up to be beta testers?

Who gives a damn about SonicBlue, I'm hoping it goes well for empeg!

Who gives a damn about SonicBlue, I'm hoping it goes well for empeg!

Well, there really isn't an Empeg any more. When I say "Empeg" or "The Empeg Guys", I really mean to say "The team of people in Cambridge formerly known as Empeg".

So yeah we should be rooting for SonicBlue, since the former Empeg team now is SonicBlue.

Damn, we just finished Beta testing!

Rob

Couple of comments on your post Tony:

1. If you can restore to 'as-new' from the CD then this presumably includes the CDDB database [which is presumably on the 'restoration' CD somewhere?].
Which you then need to update to bring it to the latest version via downloaded updates.

2. While it would make a great centre for all your music files, the same problem that the current users of the Empeg face still arises:

Having ripped all your music (at 256 or whatever rate), you then have a large hard disk stuffed full of files (with 100% correct MP3 tags) which need backing up somehow to protect against disk crashes etc.

I guess you could sit there and feed the unit with CDRs [or CDRWs] to back up the database, but with a 40GB disk thats about 50 or so CDs to back it up [and restoration of said backed up files]. Even at 8x write speed, thats still a lot of CDs to burn and a lot of time to sit there feeding it with blanks.

So my suggestion would be to allow the unit to [somehow] archive its ripped files back to a PC for storage/back up only [rather than for playing on the PC] - although there is no reason why you should not be able to do this either as its your CD you've just ripped so you now should be able to treat the mp3s like any other MP3 file.

Or allow multiple HSX's on the LAN to network to each other and allow you to copy your mp3s from 1 unit to the other.

While some might say this only encourages piracy I can assure you that having ripped 200+ CDs to your HSX the last thing you'll want to do is re-rip them due to a hard disk crash.
[same piracy comments may be said about the ReplayTV show 'sharing' features]

BTW: No-one has said what the USB version supported by the HSX is 1.0? or 2.0?

Also, I can't see any mention anywhere what the supported USB to Ethernet adapters are.
I imagine only a few common brands of these devices will be supported but what brands are they?

If you can restore to 'as-new' from the CD then this presumably includes the CDDB database [which is presumably on the 'restoration' CD somewhere?]. Which you then need to update to bring it to the latest version via downloaded updates.

It doesn't work that way.

The CDDB is whatever the latest one was when they burned that CD for production, true. But you don't have to download a whole new CDDB in order to get the player to work.

If you insert a new music CD into the HSX-109, and the CD isn't in its internal CDDB database, it simply connects to the internet to grab the data for that CD only, just like any other CDDB-enabled application. This connection can happen via a dial-up line or via one of its broadband connections (depending on how you configure the player).

The scenario above counts for any unrecognized CD at any time in the player's lifespan, not just for when you format the disk drive. It's not a problem, it simply works.

I can't see any mention anywhere what the supported USB to Ethernet adapters are.

There are a couple of officially supported ones, and some unofficially supported ones which happen to run the same chipset as the official ones. I'm using a Linksys USB10T. In fact, during the beta period, I had to send it in to Hugo so he could crack it open and discover that they changed the chipset without changing its identifier code on the USB port (bad Linksys!).

If I recall correctly, the supported adapters are the ones with the Pegasus chipset. There might be one other supported chipset, I don't remember. Details, Hugo?

My overall impression of the thing is as follows: It is SO MUCH BETTER than using your PC as a music server. In the same way that the Empeg Car is better than any other car-based music solution, this is better than any home-based music solution. Combined with one or more Receivers it's awesome.

This is excatly the point that the /.ers miss. Yes there are things that can do it for less cash, but to have it all work seamlessly in one unit is soooooo much better.

I would really like to see the transfer of songs between the car player and the HSX, much in the same way you can, apparently, do with the other rio devices.

Background ripping is such a useful feature too. When I rip a CD, i generally leave the computer alone so there aren't any glitches.
Regarding upgrades, are there other features still to come out which aren't fully implemented? Much like the EQ in the pre-release days of empeg?

To preempt any nasty bangs, flashes, and curls of smoke in Europe - what is the power spec for the US unit ? Is it 100V - 240V 50/60 Hz auto sensing ? Or is it 120V only.. ?

Regarding upgrades, are there other features still to come out which aren't fully implemented? Much like the EQ in the pre-release days of empeg?

The only ones I can think of are the Car Player support and a newer version of the Rio Receiver firmware whenever that's ready.

Did we mention that the thing plays games? Plug in a USB joystick and play some public-domain Linux arcade game clones.

ok so how come when I asked about the hp device about the only resonse I got was the same thing the slashdotters are saying now everyone is defending about the same item made by empeg hmmm.....

I would like this better if it had ethernet and video out

>Did we mention that the thing plays games?

Cool! block out!

Groovey factor 100, usefull factor 2
without a video out games are going to be pretty ordinary considering that it will probably be positioned in the entertainment cabinet.

I find the decision not to have ethernet on board a bit curious. the Reciever requires streamed files over ethernet doesn't it? Seems odd that you have to buy an extra device to use it.

If I recall correctly, the supported adapters are the ones with the Pegasus chipset.

What about USB -> 802.11? Wires in the living room are soooo 20th century :-)

For that matter I really don't get why this product and the receiver don't come with wireless capability by default.

-Mike

Groovey factor 100, usefull factor 2

There's actually a reason it has the games on it, and it has little to do with "groovy" or "useful". Dunno if the guys are interested in saying why, though...


the Reciever requires streamed files over ethernet doesn't it?

Or HPNA. It comes standard with HPNA, as does the Receiver. You take them home, open the boxes, and plug them into telephone jacks using ordinary telephone wire. They work. Simple.

If you want to get complicated with Ethernet, you can. But that's the next step up.

What about USB -> 802.11?

Interesting idea. I've seen some USB wireless adapters out there. Dunno if this thing has drivers for it.

I mean, USB-> USB/Ethernet -> Ethernet/Wireless would work fine, but going straight into the wireless adapter would also be fun.

SonicBlue website indicates it is 100 to 240 Volt - therefore I expect it has a universal power supply in it like most modern consumer products tend to do these days
[hell I know if I were paying $USD1500 for one of these I'd expect it to work on 240V without me needing tell it the local voltage].

it is very easy to build something close enough at a much cheeper price, complete with software.

Do software engineers make so little out where you are? I don't know anyone that works with me that would ever consider building somethng like this - they'd all simply buy one. And I work with tons of hardware and software engineers.

I love DIY, but something like this is more for the mild-hackability and slight upgrading. There's no way anyone on a budget could build a unit of that class/calibre for even close to that price. Not to that degree of finish certainly.

You see the same argument all the time for in-car MP3 players. And where are all these products right now? Why is it that no one can finish a product? Why is it that anyone who gets closed to finished is left with a very limited single-purpose pile of crap (in comparison)? Slashdot's new headline story should be to mention how out of the loop the are.

Bruno

I mean, USB-> USB/Ethernet -> Ethernet/Wireless would work fine, but going straight into the wireless adapter would also be fun.

Not to mention it would save you about $300. Those ethernet to wireless adapters are pricey.

-Mike

I guess my real thought was to use it in conjunction with my current solution. The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking I want to build something myself. However, it wouldn't suprise me if someone hacks it to use NFS mounted drives, thus expanding its storage capacity without voiding a hardware warranty, enabling robust low cost backup, as well as opening it up for other cool things which my sleep deprived mind can't think of at the moment.
It appears that the guys have continued their trend of making a cool toy which can be easily expanded by those with a bent for that type of thing. I was just wondering how far the "factory" was going to take things. It certianly doesn't seem like it would be difficult to add similar funcionality the the rio receiver.
Hmm, now that I think about it, imagine being able to use it to stream music from such sources as http://paradiseradio.com, or other internet based streaming audio, or play your mp3s, or....

Oh yeah - thanks for the pointer. It (the text on the specs on the SB site) doesn't show up in Netscape, only in IE...

I had to send it in to Hugo so he could crack it open and discover that they changed the chipset without changing its identifier code on the USB port (bad Linksys!).

This is why I refuse to buy Linksys network adaptors. They do this all the time, just change the chipset, making a completly new product, but with the same model number and no easy way to tell. Once, I bought a card specificially for a Linux machine. The box said it supported Linux, so I grabbed it, tried it, and dug deeper into the problem. I had a newer revision card that did not have Linux support yet. After talking it back, I grabbed another brand card. I thought about trying them again until I helped a friend reload his machine. We couldn't get the right NIC drivers, and ended up having to pull the card, look at some obscure chip, then finally get the right drivers.

Glad to see they haven't changed. I'll continue to avoid their NIC products.

Do software engineers make so little out where you are?

It's not that, the point I was thinking of is the fact that there are plenty of finished solutions out there now, with just a few features missing compaired to this. Throw it all on a PC with the extra other programs needed to complete functionality, and you have the same thing, with lots less finish overall. But for $1500, I can't justify that amount of finish compaired to the PC already sitting in my living room. The people this seems best for are non PC people. And I am the exact opposite of that with 9 computers up and running in this house. I was able to justify the expense on the empeg because it's able to act as a music player in and out of the car. While this unit does the home part way better, it is stuck there.

You see the same argument all the time for in-car MP3 players.

With the car player, there are a number of additional factors. Size, visual interface, and control. Those are the tough points to overcome in a car, but they are not a huge issue in a home product.

The player is very nice. I hope it does very well. It's just not for me in my current situation.

That's sort-of the point; it's a box to get non-computer people into the wonders of mp3/digital audio. They get to rip all their CDs, stream them around the house, use natty MP3 portables, burn MP3 CDs or audio CDs, etc.

It's the sort of box that my parents could handle; I've already set musicmatch up on their home PC and showed them how to rip stuff (and play it with their rio receiver) but they've not ripped any new content - it's too intimidating.

OTOH, if you give them a box with a CD tray and a record button, they're just fine with that.

Hugo

1 - Yes, you'll have an old CDDB. Software updates don't *currently* include CDDB updates, so this isn't a huge issue.

2 - Backup is something we're looking at. It is unlikely to be PC-centric though, as the whole product isn't PC-centric. Mirroring is likely to be a side-effect of car player support ;)

USB 1.1, btw. Ethernet adaptors include SMC2202, Linksys 10T/100TX, D-Link DU-E100, D-Link DSB-650TX. Pegasus chipset, basically.

Hugo

Not found any drivers for USB->wireless cards as yet. I do have a lucent one, which inside is a USB->PCMCIA converter and a standard lucent card (as supported by linux) so that probably wouldn't be *too* hard.

When I have some spare time I'll hook it up to the USB analyser and see what it does...

Hugo