... do McDonalds and Burger King insist on calling their beefburgers, HAMBurgers?

I mean dammit, the nearest they've ever been to pork is being on the same farm as the pigs!

And why do I always get served by the new girl who's just started the job today and can speak no English?

And another thing - I could have sworn the basic Burger King "Ham" (sheesh) Burger used to be cheaper, what does it cost in the UK and the US at the moment? Nothing fancy, just yer basic cheeseless weeny HAMBurger.

Mutter Mutter Growse Grommish

1. Origins in a medieval culinary practice popular among the Tartars, who shredded the low quality (i.e., tough) beef. Whence we get steak tartar (they didn't use capers and eggs though).

2. Russian Tartars introduced it to Germany prior to the 14th century. The Germans mixed in regional spices and the dish was eaten both cooked and raw and became common among the poorer classes. In Hamburg, the dish acquired the name "Hamburg steak" during a visit by a visiting Irish chieftain who was an ancestor of John F. Kennedy (well, I might be joking about the Chieftain part).

3. The dish went to England and met with Dr. J.H. Salisbury. This guy was a food reformer and physician (popular combo in those days, it seems) who was big on shredding all foods prior to consumption to improve digestibility. He was also big on eating beef 3 times a day, washed down by hot water. Now we get Salisbury steak which was no big deal until Swanson over promoted it (well I might be semi-kidding about Swanson).

4. Concurrently, Hamburg steak traveled with German immigrants to the US in the 1880s and we get "hamburger steak," then "hamburger." The timing of the bun business is not known though Panati says that by the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, it was already a sandwich and was also known as "hamburg."

All I can say to that post is "wow."

And I'm vegetarian!

I don't understand why Wendy's hasn't overtaken McDonalds and Burger King as the largest fast food chain. Everyone I know likes Wendy's burgers better.. They use fresh burgers instead of frozen ones the lettuce is always fresher, the cheese seems better, etc. I have to admit the fries are better at McDonalds, but if you pour about two or three tablespoons of salt on your Wendy's fries, your mind will be tricked into thinking they're McDonalds' fries.

Funny how this conversation came up so close to Dave Thomas's death (the Wendy's founder.)

Oh yeah and for vegetarians like you, Wendy's has better salads and stuff.

It is probably all due to advertising and creating brand loyalty at a young age by offering "Happy Meals" and "Ronald McDonald" to kids...

Bingo. Own the next generation....

Yeah, the fries are way better at Macdonalds. even if you pour all the salt on Wendy's fries, you still have cold fries, whch is what I always seem to get there.

Now, here's a question. Frosty or McFlurry?

Ahhh.. Frosties are yummy, never had the McFlurry so I can't compare. I LOVE the McDonald's Shamrock Shakes they have here around St Patrick's day, though.

Now if you go to japan McDonalds have the teriaki burger now that is fine

Ahhh.. Frosties are yummy

Agreed. Even though there is something in the ingredients (one of the preservatives, perhaps?) that makes me ill (stomach cramps and diarrhea) any time I eat/drink one -- I do it anyway.

So either they are really good, or I am really stupid. And please don't tell me which...

tanstaafl.

I have to agree that Wendy's, by far, makes the best hamburgers on the planet.

Sorry to disagree with you all, but In-N-Out beats EVERYONE hands down. Unfortunately, they're not widespread (only California?).

The best part is all the secret ordering names, like "Animal Style" or "Protein Burger". Oh, and being able to order 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, etc...

We have a similar chain here in central North Carolina since the 50s, the Char-Grill. If you get a good one, it's the best hamburger you've ever eaten. There's no seating (except for a metal picnic bench bolted to the ground right outside), and it has an odd ordering concept where you fill out a form and stick it through a slot to order. You can see the guys cooking your burgers or whatever right through the glass (it's right up front and the only room in the place besides the storeroom and bathroom). And it consistently gets incredibly high sanitation ratings, like 99.9%. There have been several years where they've actually gotten 100%, which is unheard-of. (Unlike a Burger King I used to go to, which had a D rating the last time I went.) There are always people outside the Char-Grill at night freezing their asses off waiting for their burgers to be cooked.

I've been to a couple different In-n-out's here in my area, and the only thing that impressed me was the fries. The burgers were kind of blah. But those fries were awesome.

Oh, sorry, "chips".

Dave Thomas just died the other day ... Incidentally, Wendy lives a couple of miles from my apartment.

Sadly I'll never be able to convice Dave to make the Honey Ham and Chicken sandwich a permanent item on the menu now.

Greg

Something my wife and I have started doing, in order to combat the like-named products and services at restaurants ... mix up the names on purpose.

At a recent Wendy's trip I asked for a chocolate McSquishy. When questioned, I rephrased it to a chocolate slurpy. Then a fluffy. Then a splishy ... then he figured out what I wanted, and probably spat in it.

At Sonic Burgers I often ask them to Biggie Size it (a Wendy's term), or vice versa .... Sonic Size a Wendy's order.

Greg

Anyone partial to Jack in the Box burgers? They have this bacon double cheeseburger that is heaven.

Calvin

I tried in n out 3 times and the food sucked compared to Jack in the Box.

Calvin

Heh, in a similar vein, I like to go into McDonald's and order things like McFries, McCoke, and a McShake, then ask where the McBathroom is.

LOL

In-n-Out has been in Nevada for at least 7 years now... probably longer, but thats when I started going there . We _FINALLY_ have a few in the Phoenix area (one not 10 mins from my house). Nothing beats a double-double animal style... and the fries are second to none.

Jack-in-the-Box is good, and by far the most prevalent fast food burger joint in this area (I have 3 in a 3sq mi area of my house). I like the bacon ultimate cheeseburger. For some reason I only end up ordering it after being at the bar all night though...

Boy, I don't know that I'd trust those special names. I have trouble here getting the illegal aliens to understand ``two hamburgers'', much less ``Flying Dutchman''.

So what percentage of threads on this board end up at food

There hasn't been a Jack in the Box around here for years. People tended to avoid them when local residents died from their E.coli outbreak years ago.

Alrighty... all you guys need read this book... now.

Fast Food Nation

Here is the first section of the book over at the NYTimes book review. You'll be wanting much less fast food after reading it, and you'll have a much better understanding of the spreading disease that is American Fast Food Culture.

Every fast food place has a bad period. The heck with E Coli, the food tastes great. Best tasting fast food.

Calvin

Like me with Pastrami - I absolutely love it. The smell, the taste, even the way it looks on the sandwhich. Yumm...

Around three hours later I inevitably have to spend the rest of the day talking to God on the great white telephone.

Why do you do things like that to me, Oh Lord? I mean, I know Rob and the naughty Hugo made you wait in the queue like everyone else, but you got yours in the end, didn't you? I mean, why put Pastrami on this earth for me and then punish my weakness when I want to eat it? Why, why?

Yep particularly the Bacon Ultimate Cheeseburger is my favorite jack in the box item. It's so yummy...

Calvin

I know it's not a chain (not even close) but the best damn(TM) burger I had was at the Sunset Grill on Sunset Blvd in LA. It also happens to be the one in the Henley song. Huge, juicy, piled high with toppings, I almost couldn't get it into my mouth. This was 10 years ago now, I don't know if it's still there or not. 7439 Sunset Blvd LA, CA.

-Zeke

Hello All

For those of you familiar with Orillia, Ontario and highway 400 / 11 north, you may know of Webber's....As a kid, I lived in North Bay and often travelled south to visit relatives in Toronto...Every summer we would pass by Webber's and the place was ALWAYS packed, I mean like 200 people lined up four rows deep to get their burgers. When I finally convinced my parents to stop one day, WOW!!! they were the best burgers ever, fat and piled with all the goodies and very fast. Webber had a system going much like an assembly line. Your order was taken while you were in the line so by the time you got to the till, everything was packaged, hot and ready. It usually only took 5-10 minutes to get throught the line, even when it was very busy. If anyone else has been there, you know what I'm raving about....Over the years, the place has evolved into a burger mecca and it still packs them in today, 25 years after my first stop there...

They had a sonic here around 7 years ago or so. Great chiliburgers... haven't seen them anywhere in south florida since :/

Oh, yes I have read fast food nation. Sadly, just as with vegetarianism, I understand and think the principles of it are great... however my stomach thinks before my brain does, and I usually think about eating healthier after the fact.

They're still around in parts of Texas (Houston, Austin, and some points in between). I go there for their 44oz Cherry Limeaids...Yum.

We have a Sonic Burger up at the next exit off of the highway. They have the best burgers. Definatly better than Hardee's "ShoeLeather" burgers

Cherry limeade! AAGH, now I have to leave the state to find a frickin' sonic...

They are actually really popular here in Colorado Springs, we have 5 or 6 of them that I can think of offhand. I love their new Strawberry Limades.

Now if you go to japan McDonalds have the teriaki burger now that is fine

Mmm. The Waikiki Beach McDonalds has that too (or did ten years ago). The one I went to in France a few years ago sold McSteak Hache and elegant little salads.

Peter

Well, I just went to www.yellowpages.com, and typed in Sonic, and FL. Came up with at least 10 hits for Sonic Drive In, there's one in Tallahassee, FL. Doesn't look like that long of a drive far ya. Then again, I live in Houston, TX, where driving for an hour to get somewhere is normal.

--Ben

Now Loren, I've withstood all this vegitarian preaching that a single carnivore can handle. This has to stop now, or I'll be calling Jack in the Box and reporting you as a disident.

May be better off for you in the end, anyway, they'll have you fixed in no time ...

And Loren Loved Hamburgers ...

Greg

Number 2 Super Sonic Cheeseburger, No Pickles, Sonic Size Cheese Tots, 44oz Cherry Limeade, please!

Heartattack material right there. Sadly the wife hates the place, so I only get to go a few times a year, usually when she's out of town.

Greg

Loren I'm with you. Let's start a Tofurkey thread j/k

You need to convince her that diet cherry limeades are good...There are times I just go there to pick up a 44oz Cherry Limeade, and stop somewhere else for the food

Sonic is good stuff. The western burgers are tasty. My favorite drink there has got to be the Route 44 Vanilla Dr. Pepper... I might have to go offsite for lunch because of this thread.

Hey everybody! Let's gang up on the veg(etari)ans! Let's throw meatballs and sirloins at them!

Just kidding guys. Someone has to eat the food that my food eats.

Anyone ever been to a Fuddrucker's? Not really fast food, but they've got the best burgers on the planet.

An hour I would drive for. 5 hours is out of my "good fast food" range

I went to

http://www.sonicdrivein.com/locator/map.shtml

And it didn't find one within 99 miles of me. (Yes, though there *are* 27 in my state...)

Best burgers here aren't at fuddruckers, they're at a local (chain?) joint called appropriately Chee'burger Chee'burger.

Mmmm. Best combo around is a snickers bar milkshake and a 1/2 pound burger with jalepeno cheddar and american cheese.

Probably both.

1. I'm not a Vegetarian (though the more i learn the closer i become)

2. I'm not crusading or anything of the sort... just trying to share something that i found incredibly fascinating and educating. I've been a meat lover all of my life, until i recently started researching what the F it was i was actually eating. I take this lot as a recently intelligent group, and i figured you might all be interested in a little information on your own social manipulation and fast food corporate culture. Seriously... this book is one of those insane eye openers, and even if you already know a lot of what it says, you probably have no idea of the degree to which various things exist. There's more info in that book than you could find in years of research about everything from target marketing to your kids, where all those french fries come from, fast food labor issues, the oh so disgusting meat packing plants, to midwest cattle ranchers being driven out of business by huge conglomorate Agri-business Co's... and almost 1/5 of the book is the citations. Microsofts exist in plenty of business areas.

Ignorance is bliss though.

Oh now, you know I was just teasing.

I agree that ignorance is bliss. Let me just say this ... don't ever order anything from Domino's Pizza! Taco Bell's "meat" is labeled as "Grade F, Edible by Humans"

Now that's scary.

Greg

heheh, i know you were teasing... i just really want people to read that book! =]

I've seen Taco Bell meat up close... huge bags of it they just toss in boiling water to heat it up. Very scary. And if you think McDonald's or any other fast food chain (with the exception of In 'n Out) are any better, you're sadly mistaken. Trust me, after reading Fast Food Nation... I feel the way you do about Taco Bell and Domino's about every fast food chain. They almost all follow the same suit.

I guess I shouldn't say there are 50 within 20 miles of me...Damn, all this talk about Sonic is making me thirsty. I'll have to go get me one on the way home from work tonight.

--Ben

Of course "The Jungle" is always a decent read as well :P

Things really haven't changed much between that book and "Fast Food Nation".

The depressing thing is that most of us (myself included) know fully what we're putting into our bodies, and continue to do so :|

Fuddrucker's is pretty good. The best burger I think that I've _EVER_ had is from the 'Hamburger Palace, Home of the Haunted Hamburger' (called Haunted Burger for short) in Jerome, AZ. The Haunted Burger there is awesome, and the scenery is amazing (Jerome is built into the side of a cliff). We use to take a jeep trail there from school which would take 2-3 hours. Now that I've moved, its about 3 hours by highway (damn traffic... quicker when the snowbirds go back home). If you are ever on I-17 cruising by Jerome, I really suggest stopping

I don't know what Taco bell is like these days. But several years ago, I worked there when I was in college. At the time, I actually was very proud of the way the food was prepared there and would have recommended it to anyone. Everything was always fresh (at least at the store I worked at). We diced the tomatoes, shredded the lettuce, grated the cheese, and chopped the onions daily. The meat was carefully cooked, drained, and mixed with the seasoning. The thing with the hot water table was merely to keep the meat hot on the assembly line, and it was timed to prevent it from sitting there too long.

Of course, I don't know how the ground beef itself was made, but it didn't seem any different than the stuff you get at the grocery store. But arguments against ground beef in general are a completely different issue than arguments against fast food chains.

I think fast food hamburgers and "gourmet" restaurant hamburgers are two separate categories. I still maintain that In-N-Out is my favorite fast food burger (although I occasionally get a craving for a Big Mac).

When it comes to restaurant burgers, I really like Red Robin and Islands, both of which have Hawaiian burgers (Terriyaki and Pineapple) that are wonderful. Red Robin also has great steak fries and seasoning.

I don't think I've been to Fuddruckers in probably 10 years. I think I'll have to head to the one around the corner from me and try it out.

Of course, I don't know how the ground beef itself was made, but it didn't seem any different than the stuff you get at the grocery store.

The stuff i've seen is huge precooked bags of grey grade F meat that was boiled in a huge vat of water to reheat it. Freshness of the veggies isn't really that big of an issue to me, as they usually are prepared by the restaurants.

But arguments against ground beef in general are a completely different issue than arguments against fast food chains.

I disagree with that one. Who do you think is BY FAR the largest consumer of ground beef? The fast food chains have more influence than the government in many cases on how the meat packing plants are run, what gets inspected when, and how fast the lines run. Arguments against the health related risks in consuming lots of ground beef may be a seperate issue... but i see that as tied in to fast food chains in tons of ways. Again... most of the consumption of ground meat is done via the hamburger. I'll see if i can pick up another copy of that book this weekend and lend it to ya Tony... I think you'd really dig it. It's not preachy, just flat informational.

The stuff i've seen is huge precooked bags of grey grade F meat that was boiled in a huge vat of water to reheat it.

Okay, well, then it's changed since I worked there years ago. Because when I worked there, we cooked the stuff ourselves. It was not precooked, and it was not boiled. We cooked it and seasoned it ourselves. And the grade of meat wasn't bad.

Heck, we even cooked the refried beans ourselves from actual real beans. Had a big old pressure cooker over a gas flame. Kind of interesting, really.

I'll see if i can pick up another copy of that book this weekend and lend it to ya

Probably best not to. I'm definitely in the "ignorance is bliss" camp. What's the old saying? If you wish to retain your respect for Politicians and Sausages, best not look to closely at how either is made.

Heck, we even cooked the refried beans ourselves from actual real beans. Had a big old pressure cooker over a gas flame. Kind of interesting, really.

haha, really?! that's actually fascinating... are you sure it was a TACO BELL?! =]

Probably best not to. I'm definitely in the "ignorance is bliss" camp. What's the old saying? If you wish to retain your respect for Politicians and Sausages, best not look to closely at how either is made.

Too bad. See, even if you skip the chapter on the meat packing plant, the rest of the book is important... even moreso. I don't get this about so many techies i know... if i may make a huge generalization (and i'm not targeting this at you Tony, you just reminded me of this): they are all to willing to boycott a tech company or the RIAA for something they deem to be a civil liberties/free speech issue... but when presented with something similar regarding say, food prep, social ethics, labor rights issues, targeted advertising, or even monopolization in agri-business, they could care less. Things that have even more of an effect on your actual day to day life, how/what you eat, how your KIDS eat and THINK, how companies treat employees, or how a fast food mentality trickles down into WAY more than you'd ever think... they couldn't give flip and would rather not know about it. I don't get denying knowledge on any front. Especially on something that effects us so profoundly. We all want to know what our Gov't is up to every second of the day, but who cares about the companies that make what we eat and feed our kids. I just don't get that. Sorry for the rant guys/gals. Just struck a nerve. =]

You make a very good point.

In a separate book, called "Reengineering the Corporation: A Manifesto for Business Revolution" contains a segment on Taco Bell. The book itself has plenty of sound practices and I enjoyed reading it. Regarding Taco Bell, the book says that in the pre-historic days of the 1980s, probably when Tony worked Taco Bell, the chain as a whole was not healthy and not as well off as the other larger chains. In an effort to improve the operational efficiency, the kitchens were downsized, and much of the cooking is now done off premises. The book goes on to say that although the physical building sizes of a Taco Bell has not increased over the decades, the amount of seating room has increased, in many cases doubled. The kitchens are reduced in size some to as little as 1/5 their original size. Etc. (I am paraphrasing the case study, as I do not have the book with me). So in the end, the company is customer focused rather than kitchen focused. The bottom line was affected very, very positively. As the execs discovered, in the prehistoric days of when Tony worked Taco Bell, having people with actual knowledge of cooking, and maintaining and cleaning cooking equipment *does not add to the profits and value* of the business. So they eliminated the maintenance and cooking by off-siting as much as possible, reducing the kitchens and increasing customer oriented space and perceived tastiness of the food.

Calvin

Hey, speaking of Tofu.. I'm by no means a vegetarian, I am a huge meat eater. Anyway, I discovered these chocolate covered tofu derivative ice cream bars. There is no actual dairy products used, but a form of Tofu. Barely any sugar, barely any fat... the nutritional label reads like it's nothing. They taste very good, I eat like 4 of them in a sitting ;-) without worrying. They're called Toffuti or something like that..

Calvin

Fast food burgers versus restaurant burgers -- definitely different animals. I maintain the bacon ultimate cheeseburger from Jack in the Box is still the best fast food burger. I have not found a favorite restaurant burger yet.

Calvin

Oh man, don't get me started on that line... haha. You outlined it well though... profits over all else. They all get rid of skilled labor in favor of uber-dumbed down tasks that require a minimum of training, to cut down on costs. The effects that has are far reaching... ludicrously high turnover rates in employment are one example, which benefits them in many ways, like lack of ability of their workers to organize, they don't have to provide benefits... etc etc. The worst of it is that it doesn't have to be that way... check out In 'n Out Burger... while not an angel... they pay $9.25 at the one down the road from me, prep all food in house, provide medical benefits, and at least make an attempt at being a good "corporate citizen". But i digress...

Profits over people/morality/conscience/social impact/environmental impact... this is what's now known as the American way. If you want to know the real scary [censored] going down these days, read the business section everyday. *sigh*

Loren,

The practices extoled in the book are firmly against uber-dumbed down task oriented specialists. They push heavily for elimination of specialist labor and essentially have the key players be generalists. E.g., cash register folks also run over to the back and put the tacos together, etc. Basically no need to have a dedicated person to whip up a taco, clean a bathroom, etc, same person does all the work. E.g. more work more pressure on the employees obviously, but a somewhat higher level of efficiency.

Calvin

interesting. Maybe i'll have to pick that book up. I seem to remember it being quoted in Fast Food Nation... but i could be way off on that.

Very interesting. This explains a lot.

I thought there was a change in the way they did things at some point. There was a period in either the late 80's or early 90's when our local Taco Bell (the one where I'd worked) sucked so bad that I actually stopped going for a year or two. Then it got new management and shaped up again, but since then, the food never seemed quite as fresh as when I'd worked there in the mid-80's.

That seems to be the timeframe I remember as well. The last time I had an awesome taco from Taco Bell was also right around the time they dumped the cinamon triangles for the twists.

There is still one or two Taco Bells here build around the old style kitchens. You can tell there are parts not used for anything now.

Hey! I miss those cinnamon triangles too

The "twists" have all the consistancy of styrofoam.

Just to add a UK flavour...

If you're ever in Bath, try Schwartz Bros. - there is (or was, not been there recently) one near Pizza hut and one on Walcot street. Absolutely gorgeous burgers, with the "order and get a number" system - no seating or anything else.

Absolutely amazing is the garlic mayo cheeseburger. Mmmmmmm

Hugo

What is scarry is that Taco seems to have improved its bottom line by making its product worse, with public so conditioned that 'market regulation' (i.e. that, with similar prices, buyers are expected to go to the guy with better wares) does not work any more.

Some local Croatian experience: When first McDonald's opened in Zagreb some ten years ago, there were queues so huge that police had to intervene... for a week. Now there are seven or eight of them, and I am sure the management is not satisfied with occupancy. They do all the usual marketing stuff: 'happy meals' with toys, kid's birthday parties, seasonal special offers etc; they even introduced a pork burger with hot mustard and lots of fresh tomatos and onions, so that it actually tastes reasonably good, and french fries are real potato. Salaries are low, but they cannot skimp on pension fund, medical benefits etc. Still, the favourite fast food remain deli-type sandwitches and something remotely similar to burger with Turkish origin (charcoal grilled ground meat patties - mixed beef and pork, originally is was mutton - very well seasoned (salt, pepper, onions, garlic), in something similar to pita bread - much more substantial than burger bun, only topping being a pile of fresh onions), typically sold in tiny establishments operated by the owner.

Although packed ground meat (both fresh and frozen) is available in supermarkets and groceries, no self-respecting cook will use it: every butcher will grind any cuts of meet one chooses. However, people in hurry do buy broiled chicken and pork or wienner schnitzels (veal, pork or turkey), ready-made salads etc. in supermarkets (and quality tends to be very good). Industrial food preparation does not have to mean abysmal quality if consumers are not brain-washed into accepting anything as long as packaging is right.

I ate at two different McD's in Zagreb (the bus station and just off of Tomislav square) and found that both were pretty much the same as home, sure was good to have a Big Mac after drinking Ozujsko all day....

So, John, you still prefer Big Mac to 'Cevapi u somunu', eh? Banja Luka was famous for them.

And I'm vegetarian!

All I can say is WOW to this post.

Lactose intolerant?

To add the Uk spice, www.burgerking.co.uk have a nice build your own burger thingy in Flash

But by far the best burger I've ever had has got to be from Gartengen between Vik and Sundvollen in Norway, expensive as hell, but well worth it!

For the best fast breakfast, there is a Burger King just 5 minutes drive from my house (7 miles or so - dont'cha just love the Edinburgh city bypass!) which until very recently would serve me a large Bacon Double Cheeseburger with extra bacon, extra cheese and mushrooms for £3. Admittedly they always complained and said they couldn't do all those toppings but every time I insisted they seemed to manage okay.


As far as fast dinners go, I have to recommend Thai food. We have a Thai restaurant which delivers the most gorgeous food imaginable, and doesn't even charge extra for the privilege.


mmm...sticky rice, Gai Pud Suppurod and a Stella (well, Thai beer really sucks!)

In answer ro the original question, a HAMBurger is about 99p in the UK, and a Whopper around £2.29

Although they do have specials for January
- Cheeseburger 69p
- Double Cheeseburger £1.29
- Triple Cheeseburger £1.69

It's great they run the specials to tempt everyone off the New Year diets ....

Re: Thai food, don't forget the Mee Krob!

I usually order the cheeseburger crappy meal at the drive thru.

Tofurkey is a tool of satan.

Evil, evil product.

And I'm not the biggest meat eater either.

why do they attempt to make vegetarian items that look like the original product that contains meat. like the garden burgers and the tofu hotdogs. why not just come up with original ideas. I haven't seen a tofurkey but is sounds scary

I saw them try to carve a Tofurkey on TechTV during the hollidays... It was like someone carving cooked spam.

It's easier to market alternatives to foods people are already familiar with. And veggie burgers are very conventient. Tofu hot dogs I can't tell from the other packaged brands in the supermarket myself, who knows what the hell is in oscar mayer hot dogs for sure. But Tofurkey and fakin bacon are especially scary because they attempt to look like animal products in a fairly natural state, where as hot dogs and pre formed burger patties do not. And trying to carve a tofurkey is just sad.

You hit the nail on the head there.... convenience.

That is why fast food is so popular, and why to market a healthy replacement to it, you have to include the ease-of-use.(with the added benefit that it won't kill you :> )

A few places here I can think of for "healthy" fast food are:

Quizno's - Sub shop that toasts the subs. Really good, and after working for one a few years back, they have pretty decent food standards. They have definitly expanded quite a bit recently.

Boston Market - Really good chicken and turkey meals from whole birds. Unfortunatly they haven't expanded much recently, and the one I went to all the time with a drive-thru closed down.

Crooked Grill - A resturaunt here in Colorado Springs that inspired the "loose meat" resturaunt seen in the TV show Rosanne. They were right across from my place of work a few years back, and I still stop by about once a month. They used to operate in another state under a different name.

Koya - Nice Japaneese place in the mall that serves quick meals similar to the big sit down resturaunts. It's usually where I stop now in the mall.

Those are the places I enjoy the most here that can still qualify as "fast" food. Usually the smaller ones are the best. After realising recently how many of my meals came in a combo deal with fries and a drink, I began reevaluating my habits.

Boston Market - Their quality went down hill when McDonalds bought them and they bacame McBoston McMarkets...

Kenny Roger Rotisserie - Anyone remember when Kenny Rogers created a semi-fast food chicken rotiserie restaurants?... Now these places was good before they went under.

no way boston market is great except the meat loaf that stuff is awful