So, Kim was nice enough to send me a copy of his software along with a hunk of the tiger data to try it out. He said I could post some of my comments here since I figure several of you will be interested. So...

I am VERY impressed. He has all the basic features that you would expect in a nav system working. Route calculations, voice prompts, moving maps, direction info, speed info, etc. It can run along with the player software (using a button to toggle between the two menu systems) or all by itself. When it is running with the player it hushes the music when it speaks a voice prompt so that you can hear its driving directions. It even says good evening/good morning to you when you start it up! It is obvious that he has put a lot of work into it and I really hope that he makes it available to everyone once reasonable map data can be found.

As far as the Tiger data goes, I think it is going to be usable. Kim has added the ability to specify an offset to his software to adjust for inaccuracy of the data. At the moment it does loose the road occasionally, but I have not had time to try to adjust the offset properly. Once I calibrate that offset and have a chance to drive around with it for a day or two I will post another message about how it goes. I also think it should be possible to auto-calibrate this offset after the user initially adjusts it. I have sent Kim some ideas on how I though that might work, but obviously he knows more about this than I do.

Anyway, I always thought a nav system would be a killer app for the empeg. Commercial automotive nav systems cost as much or more than most of us spent on our first (pre-discount) empeg. The ability to add this functionality to the empeg with software further validates (for me at least) the purchase of an in car computer rather than one of those cheesy mp3 CD playing devices.

-Mike

Awesome! I can't wait until the missing links are pieced together! Is the map data the only thing keeping it from a wide release right now?

Is the moving map display on the empeg screen?

I thought it was on an outboard device.

Kim started with a Palm V as an output device, then an iPaq,before just moving back to the empeg alone. I thought it was discussed here, but it could have been on the dev mailing list, or in a private e-mail.

(edit, no clue why I said private memory. Don't post and support clients at the same time

Is the map data the only thing keeping it from a wide release right now?

Well, I don't know what Kim wants to do still before releasing it and I don't want to speak for him.

My take on it is that it would be useful to people in its current state if the map data is accurate enough, but that is just my opinion.

-Mike

Cool!

So what other hardware is required other than the empeg? What is its cost and its form factor? Would one need to hand-construct any sort of complex interface between the GPS module and the player, or is it a straight serial connection?

The reason I'm saying this, is that if such a thing were available for the empeg, I would seriously consider purchasing it and paying good money for it. This includes purchasing the necessary GPS interface hardware as well as paying Kim for a license of the software.

Kim started with a Palm V as an output device, then an iPaq,before just moving back to the empeg alone.

Right, as it stands now he has two main modes "GPS" and "Player and GPS" the map is currently only available in the GPS mode so it is not viewable while listening to music. I would like to see it added as a view to the other mode as well.

-Mike

So what other hardware is required other than the empeg? What is its cost and its form factor? Would one need to hand-construct any sort of complex interface between the GPS module and the player, or is it a straight serial connection?

Here is what I am using and their approx prices...

Garmin eTrex GPS ($100)
eTrex serial/power cable ($25)
Null Modem adapter and gender changer to plug it into empeg ($7)

Nothing else is required. Nothing needs to be fabricated. Now it would be nice to patch the power cable into the cars electrical system (rather than using the cig lighter) and to rig the GPS to automatically come one with the empeg. These would both require a bit of custom wiring. The GPS I am using is a little bigger than a pack of cigarretes. You could get a cheaper GPS unit meant specifically for this type of application without a display, etc. I think someone posted a link to one someplace on this site a while back.

-Mike

Wow, that's simpler and cheaper than I thought it would be. You've certainly got my attention. If we do a meet at Woodside this year, you must definitely bring that for us all to see.

Hmm.. would the rand mcnally gps work? It uses NMEA. I have no idea how good this gps is.

-Greg

would the rand mcnally gps work? It uses NMEA.

As I understand it any GPS that can output NMEA should work. NMEA is available on most GPSs. There are a lot of NMEA fields so some GPSs will not output all of them. For example there is an NMEA field for temperature which I guess some GPSs can report. It looks like Kim has support for reporting temperature through his software (I saw a menu item for it at least), but my GPS does not report this data.

-Mike

You mean like outside ambient temperature?

That would be cool to have on the empeg. One thing that my old GTI had that I really loved was the outside temperature indicator. My new Honda doesn't have it and I really miss it.

You mean like outside ambient temperature?

Well I have never used a GPS with this feature, but I don't see why you couldn't locate either the entire GPS or it's temp sensor someplace outside the cabin of the car in order to get the outside temp. Of course you could also do this without a GPS or Kim's software with a lot of off-the-shelf temperature sensors I am sure.

-Mike

Heh, I wonder if I could desolder the player's internal case temperature sensor and mount it somewhere outside the cabin with long wires.

Heh, I wonder if I could desolder the player's internal case temperature sensor and mount it somewhere outside the cabin with long wires.

Nah, I think the ideal solution would be to mount the whole empeg outside the car. That way the case materials would shield the sensor from the wind. You could then do some sort of remote display within the car :-)

-Mike

I am new to this board and new to the Empeg but I want to help! I was involved with GPS from 1986 through 1996 and have a Trimble receiver that does output NMEA. My own immediate needs would be served by an alternate display on the Empeg (a "visual" if possible) for position, velocity and time data from the GPS. Map displays and route guidance are certainly desireable as well. It seems that a lot of progress has already been made but hopefully I could add something to the effort. I have a lot of experience in testing and trouble shooting the navigation solution and data and I would guess that if the data plot discrepencies you show are due either to a datum missmatch or an altitude error in the 3D solution that has propagated to the output coordinates. A geoidal error (local altitude deviations from the mathamatically calculated ellipsoid that represents the earth's surface) could also contribute. The map data is unlikely to be off as much as you show even though the stated error potentially is that great. My empeg is almost in the car and my GPs is running. Unfortunately I do not have a laptop but I am eager to contribute. Lynn Weber [email protected]

LOL... might as well just go to radioshack and get one made for what you want for $10. My grandfather has one in his jeep. I tells the outside and inside temperature... im pretty sure he get it from radio shack.
Now if only kim would only let us download a sneak peek ; )

-Greg

Agreed... I've been anxiously reading every one of Kim's posts since i first saw the little blurb about his project on the OLD empeg site. I am more than willing to pay Kim a decent chunk of change to get GPS capability, especially with the hardware being so cheap. Nice work guys. Keep us updated.

Heh, I wonder if I could desolder the player's internal case temperature sensor and mount it somewhere outside the cabin with long wires.

Or you could do like I do... get a free thermometer from your friendly heating oil company and duct-tape it to your antenna.

Of course, knowing you guys, you'd then want to build a light-sensing circuit and a miniature spotlight to illuminate it when you were driving at night.

tanstaafl.

I am new to this board and new to the Empeg but I want to help!

Welcome. I am not really involved with Kim's project aside from being a willing guinea pig. Hopefully Kim will release his software to the general public at some point, but he has not promised to do that yet. There are some other people on this board that have expressed interest in creating something similar if Kim's project does not happen. I am sure they would appreciate your help if it comes to that.

I have a lot of experience in testing and trouble shooting the navigation solution and data and I would guess that if the data plot discrepencies you show are due either to a datum missmatch or an altitude error in the 3D solution that has propagated to the output coordinates.

If you have not read it already check out this thread for discussion of the tiger data and if it is accurate enough for proper navigation. The datum I am using matches the datum Kim told me the map data uses. Like I said above my gut feeling is that the data will be accurate enough once I get the software calibrated properly. The interface to do that calibration is kind of weak at the moment so it going to take some trial and error for me to get it setup. Out of curiosity are you familiar with the tiger data?

-Mike

This definitely is great. I'm just sad I haven't gotten my hands on a GPS receiver (still doing research on all this stuff, no real time to use it yet).

How were you able to get the one-ways out of the Tiger data? The best I could see was a guarantee that a road was a two way, but nothing to determine if it was a one way -- the difference between divided, undivided, separated, and unseparated from the Tiger fields (basically whether each direction has a distinct edge in the data or not)

-sml

I was woundering if Kim has a feature that will just tell you what street your on... this would be great to get a lot of use out of gps since i know i as well as many people dont always need to put in directions all the time.. i always find myself trying to remember/find out what street im on when im looking for a house (Especially at night).

-Greg

How were you able to get the one-ways out of the Tiger data?

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I don't think Kim has been able to. The data that he gave me assumes all roads are two way as I understand it. This may be a real problem with the Tiger stuff.

-Mike

Can you *please* tease us with a screen grab from the Empeg? Pretty please???

I was woundering if Kim has a feature that will just tell you what street your on

Yep. It tells you what road you are on, speed you are traveling, etc. even if you do not have a route plotted.

-Mike

Can you *please* tease us with a screen grab from the Empeg? Pretty please???

Let me see what Kim has to say about that. If he says it is OK I will post some screens.

-Mike

OMG... i neeeeeeeed this... hehe. Im drooling. Kim I have $$$... hehe actually i really don't, but i would love too try out your gps software. ; )

-Greg

Can you *please* tease us with a screen grab from the Empeg? Pretty please???

OK, here are the teasers. Sorry if there are a bit fuzzy. I am not aware of any way to get screen grabs when the player is not running so you get blurry photos instead...

One: this is a shot of the picker screen that comes up when you first turn it on so you can select which mode you want. "Player and GPS" is the normal mode. "GPS" is where Kim has hidden various debug screens and the map screen. You can also select just "Player" if you don't need the nav software.

Two: once it is running you get a screen like this with the current street overlayed on top of the empeg display which is vertically compressed to make everything fit. IIRC the street info toggles with your current speed.

Three: pressing the nob button gets you into the GPS system which shows you your heading. The graph in the back plots your speed over time.

Four: pressing the up/down buttons takes you through the various options allowing you to plot routes, edit the configuration (enable/disable audio hints, etc), etc.

Five: searching for a route is done in a similar manner to searching for a song on the empeg or an address on many cellphones. You spin the nob to select a group of letters ('abc','def', etc) and it does a fuzzy search narrowing your options as it goes. After you determine the street you enter the actual address. Searching seems to be reasonably quick although I have not done if for a route of more than a few miles. The software also remembers previous routes so you can access them again without going through this step.

Six: once you have a route plotted the main screen is updated with a direction/distance indicator. I just noticed this feature, I am assuming it is telling you what distance to head and how far you have to go.

Seven: a more advanced view of the main screen shows current speed, distance to destination, approximate arrival time, destination, distance to your next turn, and the direction you will be turning in.

That is it for the main screens. Keep in mind that there are also voice prompts to reinforce what the screens are showing you (1km to destination, turn left, calculating route, etc). The player continues to play music as you go through these screens, plot routes, etc. The music is hushed when the nav system is doing voice feedback.

Next comes the debug type screens that come up if you choose not to boot into the player combo mode. You get the same screens from above for selecting routes and otherwise configuring things plus a few extras...

One: here you have speed, bearing, longatude, latitude, and some other stuff that I am not familiar with.

Two: long and lat again along with x and y coordinates (are these x and y on the map?) temperature and what I assume is number of sattelites in "view".

Three: another debug screen, this one includes the name of the street you are currently on.

Four: and finally your basic moving map. This is not the most useful thing in the world on this small of a display, but it is cool. I have suggested to Kim that some visual hints on this map would help a lot such as an arrow pointing in the direction of your next turn next to the intersection where you need to turn.

That is basically it. There are a few other configuration screens that I did not bother with pics of. In simple terms, it is cool, it works, it makes the world a better place :-)

-Mike

So what other hardware is required other than the empeg? What is its cost and its form factor? Would one need to hand-construct any sort of complex interface between the GPS module and the player, or is it a straight serial connection?

As mentioned, the GPS receiver is the only extra hardware you need. It should plug into empeg's serial port and also should output the so-called NMEA sentences, which are pretty much standard for GPS receivers. Also, it's a bonus if it outputs the temperature readings, and that it outputs new data every second (as opposed to every other second).

I use a Garmin GPS35PC, which is a OEM receiver, meaning it does not have a display. It's just a small black box installed into my car's roof. It gets 12V power from the car's battery.

Kim

You mean like outside ambient temperature?

If the GPS receiver outputs the temperature reading, the software will give a audio cue telling whether it's getting warmer or colder along with the actual temperature.

The only minor issue with the temperature at the moment is that as the sensor is located inside the GPS module, the temperature usually grows couple of degrees (celcius) after start-up. But that can be fixed with a piece of code which automatically corrects the temperature for the first 5-10 minutes after power on.

Kim

How were you able to get the one-ways out of the Tiger data? The best I could see was a guarantee that a road was a two way, but nothing to determine if it was a one way -- the difference between divided, undivided, separated, and unseparated from the Tiger fields (basically whether each direction has a distinct edge in the data or not)

That's still work-in-progress. There might a way of giving a good guess whether road is a one-way or not, but there probably are cases where it does not work. That's why all streets are classified as two-way, for now. Though, the software has support for one-ways, if I just figure a way to determine that from the data.

Kim

I'd still like to remind that the route planning is not perfect -- or even near perfect. It has trouble guiding through some places, especially near complex junctions.

The main problem is that all guidance is based on the 2D vector map. There's no real information on crossroad or junctions. Everything is based on lines and line segments. The map conversion software figures out which roads connect to other roads, mostly based on angular differencies.

This problem has been overcome with the real navigation CD's in a way that all crossroads and junctions are modeled and they are gived a certain type. Therefore, you can determine upcoming crossroads more easily and also know what type of crossroad it is, and give better guidance.

Kim

I'd still like to remind that the route planning is not perfect

That is probably why it told be to turn left on the freeway today. Man that would have been painful :-)

Do you have any ideas/plans on how to work around that? Or does this mean that we would need commercial map data and you would have to update your software to deal with the extra data?

-Mike

That is probably why it told be to turn left on the freeway today. Man that would have been painful :-)



Do you have any ideas/plans on how to work around that? Or does this mean that we would need commercial map data and you would have to update your software to deal with the extra data?

Well, first thing would be to catch a small log around the area where that happens so that I could take a look at that particular case. It can be made better, I'm sure, but I don't think it will ever be as good as a system that knows more about the crossroads and junctions.

In other words, if there would be support for real TeleAtlas data (or similar), then there would need to be extra code for handling that -- and then in perfect world, it wouldn't ask you to turn left on freeway

Kim

Awesome! I can't wait until the missing links are pieced together! Is the map data the only thing keeping it from a wide release right now?

I think the way this goes forward is that I'll try to overcome the biggest problems with Mike now, and then probably take another 1-2 testers from US area and see further then.

Kim

In reply to:

---

In other words, if there would be support for real TeleAtlas data (or similar), then there would need to be extra code for handling that -- and then in perfect world, it wouldn't ask you to turn left on freeway

---

I am working on that, I am trying to get ahold of resellers for these GDF CDs - but it seems that none of them wants to do business with me. Seems my last name has to be Volkswagen in order to get a price quote.

Till

In reply to:

---

In other words, if there would be support for real TeleAtlas data (or similar), then there would need to be extra code for handling that -- and then in perfect world, it wouldn't ask you to turn left on freeway

---

I use TeleAtlas maps in my Carin and had 2 occasions so far where she asked to "Turn around if possible" on a freeway.

What exactly do you need, just a CD or the specs/format ? I must have an old Benulux CD lying around here somewhere (98) which I could mail/ISO upload to you.

What exactly do you need, just a CD or the specs/format ?

Both . I've talked about the problems with existing navigation CD's in other threads, but mainly the problem is the lack of format specs. Some people are trying to obtain TeleAtlas CD's in GDF-AS/GDF-AR format, which has specs available and should be more useful.

I must have an old Benulux CD lying around here somewhere (98) which I could mail/ISO upload to you.

I'm afraid the format is pretty unknown for that as well. Though, you can send me one or two of the files from the CD (which look about the right data), and I can verify this.

Kim

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet. Not sure if it is usable but it looks like map data is available from TIGER.

I also have Precision Mapping Streets 3.0 and DeLorme Street Atlas USA cd's if you are interested in taking a look.

A quick search on google and I found some relevant links.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~werner/gps/
http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/

Tom

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet. Not sure if it is usable but it looks like map data is available from TIGER.

(Smartass comment) Might want to take a look at the subject of this thread, we are talking about the tiger data (end smartass comment)

Or did I miss your point?

-Mike

Um, doh.

I guess I’ll blame me for skimming this too quickly. Hard to keep up with all these posts!

Tom

I REALLY want to see this working with widely available maps, just for selfish reasons - turns out my US Blaupunkt nav unit is incompatible with the European map CD's.

I am a little concerned that all commercial in-car nav units supplement the GPS data with accelerometers and speed sense input, though..

Rob

Damn, you seem to have been driving around pretty much the same streets I was driving around on that date. I need to get this loaded up with a UK map!

Rob

I am not really familiar with the Tiger file format and frankly my experience is more on the GPS side and less on the vehicle navigation side of the problem. Has anyone looked at the Garmin map database, available from Radio Shack and others for $150, for the US. I don't know what the level of detail is or the format.

On a related subject, can anyone give me an idea of what it would take to accept a stream of NMEA $GPRMC sentences on the Rio/Empeg serial port and display position, velocity and time on the RIO/Empeg. This is ASCII data and requires very little formatting to be useful though some units conversion would be helpful (knots to MPH or KPH).

I think that this would be a great first step and would help build further interest in this project as well as allow preliminary testing of GPS installation in cars. I appologize if this has already been covered but I didn't see it while looking through the board threads.

Sorry, but double carraige returns don't seem to show up in my posts!

Lynn

Sorry, but double carraige returns don't seem to show up in my posts!

I think it may be a function of how your browser displays them. Your double returns show up just fine on my screen, using Netscape 4.6something

tanstaafl.

On a related subject, can anyone give me an idea of what it would take to accept a stream of NMEA $GPRMC sentences on the Rio/Empeg serial port and display position, velocity and time on the RIO/Empeg. This is ASCII data and requires very little formatting to be useful though some units conversion would be helpful (knots to MPH or KPH).

Take a look at the hijack kernel mods for an easy way to display stuff on the screen. You can basically just cat text to a /dev entry.

In order to use the serial port you need to write a custom init script that starts the player with the appropriate flag to keep it from locking the serial port to output its debug info (I think it is -s but search here).

Reading from the serial port is trivial, you may have to set the speed first though.

As far as parsing the NMEA data, it sounds like you may know what you are doing already. I started to rip some code out of one of the open source gps clients (jeeps I think?) a while back to do this. IIRC I had it working aside from some endianness issues with the long and lat that I didn't know how to get around.

Now that I think about it, now that mlord has done all the UI work with hijack this should be pretty trivial to do.

-Mike

Thanks for the tips. I have read through the Hijack source twice and am thoroughly intimidated! Way beyond my skill level with software. I guess I will wait patiently for the time being.

Lynn

And it would keep the empeg cool. Nice external cooling system...hmmm

If you need a hand or any further testing, I am currently on unemployed status with plenty of time, so send me a private message

I want one.

Greg

I'm considering the purchase of a Garmin GPS 16 ... it's similar in that it's an OEM product, 12 satellites, etc. This one however will receive WAAS information from a couple of satellites over the US.

This gives it an accuracy of less than 3 meters.

Haven't found a price yet ... but it's meant for consumers.

g

looks like the gps 16 runs about $175 from web vendors.

--dan.

This looks to be a good choice. It can even be powered from the Empeg amplifier control signal due to the low current required. All you will need to do is make an RJ-45 to DB-9 adapter. Oh, and then there is the software!

Try these two sites for purchase. They both show it for $150 US.

http://www.a-nautical.com/catalog_garmin_gps.htm

and

http://www.navtechgps.com/supply/gps16.asp

I am familiar with the latter outlet and they have been around for quite a while.

Good luck,

Lynn

This one however will receive WAAS information from a couple of satellites over the US.

What is WAAS?

What is WAAS?

And while we are at it, what makes these OEM units worth the extra $50-$100? It seems like without the screen, buttons, etc then should be super cheap, but they are more expensive than my eTrex which to me seems like a pretty good unit. I assume they are not significantly more accurate since the eTrex claims accuracy within about 20 feet most of the time. So what are the extra features that increase the cost and are they useful for an in car application?

-Mike

WAAS is the"Wide Area Augmentation System" developed by Stanford under contract to the FAA. The intent is to improve the accuracy of GPS so that it can possibly be used in the approach phase for commercial aircraft. This has been under development for almost 10 years.

New INMARSAT satellites (geosynchronous) are used to transmit differential GPS correction data to remove some of the common mode range error noise. There are a geographically dispersed array of GPS reference stations that produce a set of range error contours for each GPS satellite that are then relayed through the INMARSAT links to your receiver where you calculate the corrections that are appropriate for your approximate current location.

Since the correction data is transmittesd in "L-band" as are the GPS signals the receiver is little more complicated and the performance greatly improved, however, this is much less important now that S/A (Selective Availability) has been turned off.

An OEM unit should be a little more rugged and therefore better suited for an automotive application where it can be mounted in the location that best suits the reception of the signals. Controlling it completely (power on/off etc.) from the serial port will also lead to a more finished solution.

Lynn

Thanks for the info. I am interested in getting a GPS to permanently mount in my car that can be easily turned on and off via serial or via the amp remote line on the empeg. The GPS that I am currently using has a button that needs to be held down for a few seconds to turn it on so any sort of permanent install would be tricky. However, I don't really want to spend the money for a differential unit unless it really improves navigation. Is there a more affordable OEM stile unit that is meant to be controlled by another device but without the extra WAAS features? Or would it be worth it to spring for one of the units mentioned above?

Thanks,
-Mike

I think the main reason is probably that they sell less of these OEM units to consumers that they sell Etrex units.

Patience, there is something in the wind....

That would be really neat

Besides, i'd rather use the hardware I have and buy a small app from a BBS member than purchase a dedicated unit that won't work quite as well.

ALERT!!! Schofield cut one ... someone light a match.

g

And if the TIGER data from the Census site isn't useful as-distributed <A HREF="http://gdal.velocet.ca">GDAL</A> can probably convert it to whatever format you need.

Not that I have any clue why I'm trolling old threads...

HTML is turned off in this forum. The format for UBBCode links is [url=gdal.velocet.ca]GDAL[/url]
Note the lack of "http://". This is necessary.

Corrected link: GDAL

The really weird think about the BBS is: If I just type in http://gdal.velocet.ca it turns that into a (correct) link: http://gdal.velocet.ca

But if I type <a href="http://gdal.velocet.ca">gdal</a>, it doesn't. It also accepts [url]http://gdal.velocet.ca[/url] though: http://gdal.velocet.ca

cu,
sven

Edit: I just noticed that the BBS doesn't recognize (probably willingly) URLs that are within quotation marks.

Maximum edit time passed before I noticed I'd flubbed. The HTML wrapping is force of habit, a habit I should really break.

Hi

Has Kim an internet page where I can look for his product?

As far as I know, Kim has not released this product to the public.

Sorry