From: http://id.essortment.com/historyofpizza_rmgf.htm

In reply to:

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...Pizza spread to America, England, France and Spain very rapidly after its Italian birth. It was little-known in these respective countries, however, until World War Two. After occupying Italian territory, many American and European soldiers tasted pizza and brought the memory to their homeland. In America, Italian immigrants had been selling pizza in their stores, and the first pizzeria had been opened by Gennuardo Lombardi in 1905. The American GI’s popularized this feature of most Italian neighborhoods, drawing pizzerias out of Italian neighborhoods and into the hearts of every city in America. In fact, the square “Sicilian pizza” is an America invention! Real Sicilian pizza, made in Sicily, has no cheese and anchovies.

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"Speaking of that (and getting off-topic here, feel free to reply in the Off Topic forum), is Italian pizza significantly different than U.S. pizza?"
Tfabris (from another post in the general forum)

That depends on whats considered "American Pizza".
In my mind Dominos, and Pizza Hut aint it.
Total bastardizations of the original.
Pizza should not have an inch thick crust unless its the sicilian variety, in which case it should be slightly doughy.
And pizza should NEVER have extra cheese baked into the crust. Just what Americans need, more cheese.

Unfortunately with the prevelance of these chains I'm afraid that they are becoming what people consider "American Pizza" which is a shame.

A traditional hand made pizza can be such a treat. Whenever I move to a new city one of the first things I do is seek out the local pizza place, and try them out. Right now in Boston the best I've found is The Same Old Place in Jamaica Plain. Great Pizza hand made by a family of italians in a small storefront.
mmm tasty...

I grew up in NYC (unoffical Pizza capital of the US) and I guess I'm somewhat of a pizza purist/snob.
Oh well...

Ill step off the soap box now.


Z~

Actually, in the 30 minute micro-research I did to post that, it noted that Boston and New York have had a long standing pizza rivally (being from the MidWest, I always thought Chicago and New York were the only rivals..). The Boston style is described as having a thin dough in the middle and thick crust around the edges.. that would explain your distain for it!

From: http://www.ultradave.com/pizzahistory.htm

In reply to:

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Italians baegan to bring their pizza recipes to the United States in the 1800s, and pizza began showing up on the menus of restaurants and bakeries in Boston, New York, and Chicago. Perhaps most important in the history of pizza was the evolution of the Boston style pizza. A Boston style pizza has thin crust in the middle, a thick edge of around the outside, a combination of mozzarella and white cheddar cheese, and a tomato based sauce that is hard to match outside of Boston. "MMMM GOOD!" Why was the Boston pizza so important? It was important because I would have been stuck with New York pizza if the Boston pizza did not evolve. (I do my part to maintain the rivalry.)

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EDIT:

and from: http://members.aol.com/GLilli/piz.html

In reply to:

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Pizza supply houses began to emerge providing dough, sauce and toppings to the pizzerias. They fulfilled the need for consistency and reduced labor cost, at the expense of high quality ingredients. Consequently, all pizza began to taste the same because all the pizzerias began to use the same manufacturers.

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I thought we agreed a long time ago that we wouldn't discuss pizza in any forum including OT.

Too divisive.

Pizza good.

Me want.

> Real Sicilian pizza, made in Sicily, has no cheese and anchovies.

I had always heard that Italian pizza doesn't include cheese, but when you order a pizza in Italy nowadays, it definitely includes it. I didn't go as far south as Sicily, but every pizza I ordered from Venice, Florence, and Rome all had cheese. And most of the places I went had more Italians that tourists in them.

All in all I found it to be a little bit different, but not so much as to make it a new beast. The spices they used were different, and sometimes they used some cheeses that I thought were a little odd. The bread was also a little different, and they make it pretty thin. Of course the cutting is entirely up to you. The toppings they choose were quite odd. One place I went has sliced hot dogs (no lie) on their pizza.

Whatever you do, don't order pepperoni. It means peppers over there and I got burned once (almost literally) in doing so. Some would say if you want pepperoni order the spicy proscuitto (sp?) but I found it to not be even close.

I have, on occasion, found pizza in the states that was damn close though. If you go to enough Italian resteraunts you will find something that is petty similiar.

Right now in Boston the best I've found is The Same Old Place in Jamaica Plain. Great Pizza hand made by a family of italians in a small storefront. mmm tasty...

Aaaah, a nostalgia moment. I lved about 5 blocks away from TSOP from '78-'87. My reference pizza joint is actually the admittedly modest hole-in-the-wall Pino's in Cleveland Circle (may they never change!).

I grew up in NYC (unoffical Pizza capital of the US) and I guess I'm somewhat of a pizza purist/snob.

In understand. I commuted to NYC in '99 for 6 months and loved that aspect (a place called Suttons Pizza on 1st Ave around 63rd, particularly). I get a bit grumpy about pizza because it's so hard to find here in the Northwest.

I've had pizza in Italy and it was pretty good, but not anywhere near my ideal (if you need a fork, it ain't what I'd call pizza). On the other hand, there's something uniquely evocative about eating oven-baked pizza in a cafe about 50 feet away from where Gironolamo Savonarola was burned at the stake!

Ill step off the soap box now.

I was kidding about the divisive nature of pizza. I think it *is* possible to discuss civilly -- as long as no [censored] mentions pineapple!

Pineapple.

You just couldn't resist could you?

Pineapple has no business being anywhere near a pizza...

My favourite ever pizza place is in Sheffield, England. I think it is actually run by a bunch of Greeks, but they make the best (and strangely cheapest) pizza I have ever had. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately for my waist line) I now live 200 miles away so they no longer deliver.

Oh and it's called "Nibbles Pizza".

Pine [censored] .

Oh, [censored], I just knew it! Here I was trying to be civil about the whole pizza thing and the Rapid Response Team has to stick his thumb in my eye by mentioning the P-word. The P-word, dammit. (OK, I can only blame myself. I had to go and mention the damn P-word).

But that won't stop me! The oven mitts are off!

Fabris, Ima calling yooooo out!

Virtual pepperoncini at 50 nanometers!

...the P-word...

Oh, come on! Hawaiian pizza has got to be just about the best that there is! I love it. Gimme more!

mmmmm.....

//matt

Hawaiian pizza

Arrrrrgh.

Give it to me straight: Are you really from Massachusetts or are you just part of Fabris' West Coast Pizza 5th Column?

Are you really from Massachusetts...?

born and raised my friend. I do love Hawaiian pizza, but don't get me wrong, I'll eat anything.

//matt

Ok, now the word to a REAL italian

Real pizza is the Pizza Margherita: it is made like all pizza of a thin layer of paste, covered by a layer of tomatoes (better if roughly cutted) and NOT cheese, but Italian Mozzarella. It is then flavored with only two spices: basil and origan.

In our market I see some boxes with 'American Pizza' written on it... ok it is not the real pizza! It has on it almost everything!!! Pizza is not a piece of bread covered with all comestibles you found in kitchen: it must have a precise flavour!

BTW for the types of pizza the base is always the same, then changes the 'top' ingredients: sicilian has normally caper and olives, napoletana has caper and anchovies, diavola (devily) has spicy salame, prosciutto e funghi has ham and mushrooms, and so on...
I can't remember as an usual pizza, one with pepperoni - however, you could ask to the 'pizzaiolo' to make one special for you

I f you have any other questions, feel free to ask... we have not as many technology as US, but in the 'pizza range' there is no equal

Oh, and if someone of the BBS people will come to Italy, let me know! I will take you to eat a very special pizza

Stefano, what part of Italy are you from? Does that make a difference (like in the toppings used) because I didn't see any while I was there.

> NOT cheese, but Italian Mozzarella

Perhaps I am being dense, but isn't Mozzarella cheese?

> It is then flavored with only two spices: basil and origan.

They use quite a bit more of both than most places in the states.

I truly enjoyed the Italian food (and Italy in general), especially since I had just come from France where you can't find anything decent to eat from an American's viewpoint short of french bread and funky cheese.

especially since I had just come from France where you can't find anything decent to eat from an American's viewpoint short of bread and cheese.

Whoa. Just which France did you visit???

> Whoa. Just which France did you visit???

Haha, OK, maybe others like that stuff the French call food, I am not a fan. And I swear, Paris has less non-native food restaurants of any other major city in Europe or America, so you are not given much of a choice.

I'm from Arezzo, near Florence, Tuscany (central Italy) - the city of Roberto Benigni's "Life is beautiful" - do you know?
Yeah there's differences in making pizza from north to south italy, but it's all far from the american one
At very south Italy, they tend to made it more thick and soft; at north and centre instead we tend to made it more thin and crispy. BTW at Naples (capital of pizza) they have both thin and thick type of pizza.

Mozzarella is a particular type of cheese, but it's better for pizza. On 95% of pizza you find a like-mozzarella melting cheese that is not so good like the real one.

I agree with you about french food: I was in there three times for visiting Euro Disneyland and can't find any decent food to eat

And I swear, Paris has less non-native food restaurants of any other major city in Europe or America

Hmmmm. There sure are enough Thai, Italian, Chinese and <fill in the blank> places, but in Europe I would have given that award to London (limited experience, though). I'd almost guess that NYC, LA, Chicago, San Fran would beat Paris, too, but then there's maybe a problem with defining what qualifies as "native" American food. OK, if we count the Burger Kings my analysis is doomed!

I'm no gourmet, but *lots* of great chow in France, Paris included, though perhaps Paris isn't the most balanced example of that. Italy? Great food. Best food I've ever had? Barcelona and thereabouts.

> I'm from Arezzo, near Florence, Tuscany (central Italy) - the city of Roberto Benigni's "Life is beautiful" - do you know?

I went to Florence, but did not have an opportunity to visit the Tuscany countryside, though I hear it is beautiful.

> Mozzarella is a particular type of cheese, but it's better for pizza.

Mozerella is the standard cheese that Americans use for Pizza too, though perhaps it is not quite identical, because it sure tasted different to me.

All-in-all, I found it more similiar than different than some American pizza, at least the stuff you can get from Italian restraunts here. Pizza Hut doesn't count.

> in Europe I would have given that award to London (limited experience, though).

I found London to be quite cosmopolitan. You can find every kind of food in great quantities there. For instance, I tried Ethiopian food there, which I never even heard of before. Didn't like it all that much, but there were several restaurants there.

> I'd almost guess that NYC, LA, Chicago, San Fran would beat Paris, too

I live in L.A., and I swear this city can not be beat for food. Even leaving out Mexican food, which could be argued is the native food food of L.A. nowadays, there are just tons of different communities here and lots of restaurants for each one.

> Best food I've ever had? Barcelona and thereabouts.

Never been there, it is certainly on my list though. I hear it is a party city.

OK, now on to the next topic:

American mexican food or Mexican mexican food?

Pizza is an (North) American dish. If you had ordered pizza in Italy ~30-years ago, you would have been served olive oil on bread (no cheese or tomato sauce). Because their dairy and produce is much better than the mass produced cr_p they sell here in the US, their current pizzas are fantastic.

BTW - The burrito is also American.

What's American Mexican food? Taco Bell? I'll pass.

I think I prefer the original, though hard shell tacos are pretty good, which of course is not a true Mexican dish. Though not from Taco Bell of course.

I spent 2 weeks in the mountains in central mexico. A town called Tlaxco.
While there I was served Gusano's on tortillas with peppers and sausage. Know what a Gusano is? Check the attachment.

They were tasty though.


Z~

Heres an even more graphic one.
Just in case you were still curious...

Fresh out of the plant, into the fire, onto a tortilla, and into my mouth.

Z~

Dude, there was a worm in your nacho. Maybe you should go on Fear Factor......

Maybe next time 'round Ill tell you about "Pulque".
It's alcoholic!


Z~

I really don't think I could handle eating bugs. Who knows, never tried them. Then again a cheeseburger from Mc Donnads is probobly just as untastefull IMO.

-Greg