Well it's official.

The Volume in 9a SUCKS the big one (nothing personal). Today alone I ran it into "over drive", something I've only done on accident a few times in the months that I've had it, on at least six occasions and if I keep this up I'll loose what remaining hearing I do have. It is MUCH too touchy and if this is the way it is I'm going back to good ol' beta 7c.

Don't get me wrong - everything else about the Empeg, if they didn't develop another rev, I would be more than happy with it.

To the Empeg folks - can we have something that starts slow then moves into fast? Pressing it for 2 seconds moves you all the way to over drive, as before it moved you up (or down) just the right amount and I could judge (without looking at the display) if it was the right volume level or not. How about a "flat" (non-linear) and a linear option?

Much thanks!

david

David, weren't you one of the folks complaining that it was too slow in previous revisions?



-- Tony Fabris -- Empeg #144 --
Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

I guess we contrast a bit on this.. I love the volume being as touchy as it is, and it's the best feature of 9a that I've seen... Here's something that'd be a good compromise though:

A selectable-speed volume? This could be set thorugh the options screen, similar to how the beep works...
Also, maybe have a little resistance near the 0 point...
-mark

...proud to have one of the first Mark I units

Last I heard we were going to make it "stick" when you hit 0dB to prevent accidental increase into overdrive. You would have to release and re-press the control to continue.

Rob

That sounds good... =)

Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)

making it stick at the 0 point sounds good.. Can I give another suggestion? slow it down if increasing from the 0 point...
-mark

...proud to have one of the first Mark I units

I had the same problem with the volume control. The volume was pretty low, I pressed the button for 2 or 3 seconds, and even AFTER releasing the button the empeg kept beeping and raised the volume until I was in overdrive at +6dB. I looks like some kind of keyboard buffer still had some repeats that couldn't be processed in time.

Felix

The intention is for auto-repeat to disable when in the overdrive zone, ie. individual button presses will be needed for each step.

Hopefully not many of you use overdrive - if you need to then maybe you should renormalise your tracks, which would give a far higher quality result.

Rob

I had the "sticky" volume in previous releases going back to 6 also. Funny thing is that now it's not a problem with the empeg running it into overdrive it's me.

I've always wanted a linear volume. Common sense says that you make most of your volume changes (and there are a LOT with MP3's) in small increments, mostly between tracks. Why have it shoot all the way to overdrive when pressing it for a brief few seconds. Of course the REAL solution has already been devised - an analog rotary volume control.

Another thing that I've noticed now that I'm on day four of 9a - in an effort to not crash the car (by keeping my eyes on the road and not on the display) I flip forward and backwards through the tracks trying to "figure" when the volume is going up or down without (on the upside) making it shoot into overdrive.

Has ANYONE else felt the volume to be a problem in the CAR (That's where I use mine anyway).

Thanks!

david

I still love you Empeg guys!

Ok guys, here I am on the outside looking in again.... I don't have my empeg yet :-( so I have to live vicariously through the postings of the fortunate 400 who do.... Sometimes I haven't much of a clue as to what you are talking about.

What is this "overdrive" you refer to?

As an aid to helping me disguise my ignorance, Rob -- how are you coming on the idea of posting the operators manual on-line?

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

0dB is 100% gain - turning down the volume attenuates the gain, e.g. -10dB etc.

Overdrive is the area above 0dB - e.g. +5dB - in which the gain is above maximum. This allows quiet tracks to be made louder, but if a track already uses the full dynamic range distortion will occur.

I'll put the userguide online after it has been updated. It hasn't been updated yet because the UI for a few of the new features hasn't been finalised, but we're getting there.

Rob

I have to correct my previous posting: The volume keys behave sometimes like the "Sticky Keys" feature in Windows: The button is pressed for some time an then released, but the volume is increased forever. I had it twice last night, I was lucky that the song playing was pretty quiet, but the unit kept beeping and trying to increase the volume for 30 seconds until I pressed the "decrease volume" button.

Felix

I have never felt the volume to be a problem. I do not operate the volume by holding the button on the faceplate. I always use the remote (even in the car), and I rarely "hold" it. I always work it by tapping it carefully. The only time I "hold" it is when I'm going down. Never going up.

Okay, if you read some of those sentences out of context, it could sound a little strange. But we're all Empeg users here, so we know what I'm talking about, right?


-- Tony Fabris -- Empeg #144 --
Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

This isn't a bug report. Rather, it's tossed out there as a possible solution to volume-related problems. If possible, it'd have the most impact if implemented in the current units due to their lack of rotary volume control:

I've ripped my entire music collection using "normalization" -- a technique whereby the ripping software alters the .wav file to minimize/maximize peak levels to a particular volume percentage level (chosen by me). This means I don't have MP3s that are different volume levels due to recording characteristics on the CD -- but it's at the expense of a slight loss of quality (inaudible to me)...

I know that normalization is conducted prior to the .wav file's conversion to MP3 format. I'm curious if it's possible to normalize "on the fly" (i.e. during playback) to completely solve the problem of having to adjust the volume due to recording-level inconsistencies of music. If so, it sounds like a feature that would help out a large number of existing empeg customers...

I won't bother cross-posting this as Rob and others will see it here...

--Bleys
"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

I'm curious if it's possible to normalize "on the fly" (i.e. during playback)

There are two pretty good threads that take up this issue: Empeg: Auto-normalization on playback in the "Wish List" forum, and
Re: Audio Volume Balance in the General Forum.

tanstaafl.






"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

"Common sense says that you make most of your volume changes (and there are a LOT with MP3's) in small increments, mostly between tracks"

Well, i haven't ever done that, and i reject the notion that it means i have no common sense Just about all the volume changes i make are large volume changes, turning it down when i slow down for a town, and turning it back up when i'm on the highway again. Or for turning it up real loud when my mood and situation dictates.

The 'sticky volume' killed my sub now!! I cannot belive that. Folks, this is crap. As others reported before, the volume increases even if you release the button up all the way into overdrive, very rarely, but it happens. So i was working on the engine and just wanted to turn the volume up a little, went back to work on the engine and the volume ran into overdrive - i headed back to emergency pull out that thing, but too late - too long into overdrive, the sub was making crackling sounds afterwards. Is EMGEP is gonna pay for a replacement now ?!? (just kidding.....am I?)

OK, i take the positive side effect, i have an excuse now to buy a bigger sub, but hey.

Also, another thing i have noticed, since going to 9, the base volume 'level' has changed - maybe that has been complained about alreday, but i heavent read through all the threads yet. But, the level which was at -10dB in 8 now is roughly at -20dB - this sucks as well.

But the sticky volume things has has has has to be fixed now, once and forever. Thanks, J.

There have been some changes to how volume works (to be released):

If the volume is increased by holding down a button, it will stop at 0dB, and only increase by further button presses.

The dB volume reported is in fact incorrect, but the actual volume produced is the same for a bar at a particular length, compared to older versions.

There is now no buffering and much less latency when adjusting volume.


- John.

(The above may not represent the views of empeg :)

I have never had the volume stick when I use my unit. I don't think it's a software problem.

I think you have a case of sticky front-panel buttons. On my unit, the front panel doesn't line up perfectly with the electronics beneath it. As a result, the plastic button tops have to "angle" slightly to reach the holes. If the screws aren't at exactly the right tightness, my top button will stick sometimes.

This is related to the problem where the pull-out handle sometimes rubs against the edge of the faceplate. I believe that the faceplate simply needs to be cut with more "slack" in future designs. Slightly larger button holes, and slightly smaller outer dimensions to allow for more gap between the handle and the faceplate.



-- Tony Fabris -- Empeg #144 --
Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

John,

I appreciate the attention you guys are paying to avoid problems like overdriving the empeg, but why arbitrarily (spelled ok?) decide it should top at 0db? Not all amps are the same; nor are speaker efficiencies. I for one, would be playing way too loud at 0db.

Any chance you can make this configurable? With 0db as a default?
And when you do, could you also put a max value? I have my home hi-if limited to +60db, just to prevent anyone (my kids / guest at a party) blowing out the speakers. Would be nice to protect my car system too

Thanks

Henno

Well, if you think about it, they've got to arbitrarily limit the volume somewhere. Why not 0db?

Actually, there's a good reason for it. Empeg guys, jump in here if I state something wrong...

You're right that not all amps are created equal. But all good amps should at least have an input gain adjustment. A properly set-up car amplifier system should have the input gains to the amplifiers tuned so that 0db on the head unit is the maximum volume you want the system to play. The technique to do this is described here.

A side-benefit of tuning your amps this way is that overall noise floor is also reduced, and the notorius problem with the Mark 1's system noise is taken care of.

One of my three amplifiers doesn't have an input level control, so I went to the trouble of making one of my own (Radio Shack parts: a stereo volume potentiometer, a small project box, and some RCA jacks) just so I could tune that amp with the rest of them.

Now I'm very happy with the overall sound and levels of the system, and now 0db is the maximum volume I want out of the Empeg. It sounds great.



-- Tony Fabris -- Empeg #144 --
Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

One of my three amplifiers doesn't have an input level control, so I went to the trouble of making one of my own

An adjustable level beyond which multiple presses are needed to further increase volume would have been much easier, wouldn't it
Henno

0dB means no attenuation, ie you're getting all the range of the 16-bit DAC. The volume control is digital, which means that turning it down effectively loses resolution - this is in common with all other digitial volume control solutions (unless, eg, you use 24 bit dacs and only feed them a 16-bit signal and use the other bits for volume control).

As it notes in the empeg manual, you should turn down your amp gain so that 0dB is the loudest you want to hear - this also reduces background noise.

Hugo

I think you missed the point. If you care about quality you will want your empeg to output 0dB for the maximum required listening level. If, for example, your never turn your system above -10dB then you are NOT getting the best quality that the product is capable of.

Rob

I'm sure this is a bug, at least at my player. It's happening with both, volume up AND volume down. It's not a mechanical problem with the buttons for sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the volume 'moving' too fast, thats another thing, but I'm talking about the volume going up and down itself AFTER releaseing the buttons on the front panel. Also, this hasn't been there for older s/w releases, it happened with 9a.

I think this is very serious since this can (and actually did in my case) blow up things.

Can anyone from EMPEG confirm that this is a bug, known, and that there is worked on ? I just want to make sure the guys are aware and don't mess up things with 'volume speed' and such. Thanks, J.

Okay, I was just suggesting it might be stuck buttons because that's happened to me before, whereas software volume issues haven't happened to me. If it is software, 9b is coming out today and hopefully there might be a fix (although I don't remember Mike saying that was one of the things they worked on).

Has anyone else had this happen?

One other thing that might be related, this is a long shot...

Once upon a time, I used to use multiple remote controls for my TV/VCR/Stereo. This was back in the days before "One For All" remotes. I discovered that the "repeat last command" signal that the remotes used was the same for different brands.

For example, if I pressed the channel changer on my RCA VCR, then immediately held down the volume control on my Sharp television, the VCR would continue to change channels as if I were still holding down its channel-changer button. The VCR was following the TV's "repeat last command" from the TV remote.

So is it possible that's related? Are you getting any stray IR signals from other devices by any chance?



-- Tony Fabris -- Empeg #144 --
Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

Missing button presses (or, in this case, releases) is generally due to irq latency - however, we've not seen this problem since about beta2, when the kernel was tweaked to eliminate this problem. It's definitely not anything new introduced in beta9 - the code hasn't changed since before first customer shipping in August.

So no, it's not a known problem and we've not seen it here, which makes it hard to "fix" for the 9b release.

Hugo

Hmm. If it's not software, and it's not sticky buttons, and you've ruled out stray IR signals (see my other post), then maybe it's a flaw in the switches or the circuit board? Or perhaps a problem with the connector that connects the display panel to the rest of the unit?

Here's a stab in the dark: Hugo, where is the de-bounce circuitry located? Are the buttons de-bounced in software or hardware? If hardware, is the circuit on the display panel or the main board?



-- Tony Fabris -- Empeg #144 --
Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

I had it happen to me as well; volume was all the way down, pressed up, let go before the 0 mark, but the volume kept going up all the way, and pressing volume down wouldn't do anything...
-mark

...proud to have one of the first Mark I units

If you care about quality you will want your empeg to output 0dB

I know the theory, but I had the amp fitted and they didn't adjust it right. Now that you insist, I'll adjust it.
Sorry for being happy with the way it sound now

We may be getting close here. I have experienced this problem exactly once (using beta 9a), which means that for me it is a very uncommon occurrence.

I was driving, my wife was manning the remote. One of my songs was playing that I wasn't in the mood to listen to, so I reached to the panel and hit the "next song" button at nearly the exact same time as she hit a volume button on the remote. She swears it was the "down" button, but it might be the trauma: lord knows, she hit down quite a bit in the seconds that followed. :)

We all know what happened next: the unit flew into overdrive and ignored all inputs on both the console and the remote. I agree this is a serious bug: there was a very real danger of causing an accident or blowing out my speakers (neither happened: we pulled onto a sidestreet and yanked out the unit).

So could there possibly be a software bug tied into receiving simultaneous input from the different sources (remote IR and console buttons)?

Corby
SN#320, 6-Gig Blue

Interesting. I just tried inducing the bug with various combinations of IR and front panel input- holding one, pressing the other, releasing one, etc. And I think got it to happen once (in the down direction). But since I can't reproduce it, and I'm not sure what combination of button presses caused it to happen, I can't be certain.

I'll try it some more. If I find out anything else, I'll let you know. Anyone else want to try (with the unit disconnected from its amplifiers, of course)?


-- Tony Fabris -- Empeg #144 --
Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

Sounds more like missed key presses or releases during other activity (playing a beep?)

Sounds more like missed key presses or releases during other activity (playing a beep?)

Interesting idea. I was able to reproduce it with beeps=off, but you could be on the right track. I once worked on a Quake mod that had a similar problem: Sometimes one of the client commands would get "stuck on" if the "off" command came in the same frame as another command. Our work-around was to send the "off" command twice, but we never actually fixed the bug.



-- Tony Fabris -- Empeg #144 --
Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

They're debounced in firmware on the display board. There should never be a case where a button down/up is not sent from the display board to the main board as it just sends changes of state - the problem is if the main board misses the notifications (they come in as simulated IR streams).

Hugo

Hugo,

this sounds exactly like the bug report I sent to [email protected] on january 25th. It never happened before Beta9a, but by now (still in 9a), I also had the same problem within the playlist menu, but this actually isn't a big deal in there.

Felix

If it is actually missing button presses/releases, then this is, as I said, has not changed for the last 7ish beta releases.

However, the problem with the volume control is a problem with the way the volume control worked, which has been fixed mostly in 9b, and will be totally fixed in the next version (right John? :) ).

Hugo

All,

I managed to reproduce this twice, without using the remote. I'm on Beta9b.

I turned on the unit, selected a playlist and hit next-track. This caused the volume to go up very fast.

This seems like a resonably frequent bug too.

I've never seen this behaviour before today.

Just my 0.02

Paul.

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254