I absolutely love my Empegs (I've got 3), but will no longer be able to use one in my car due to lack of dash space. The two-din space is in use with an OEM GPS/Receiver/Telematik system with a nice color screen. Fortunately the system has both auxiliary input for sound and an RGB input to display composite video signals. I am looking for an Empeg alternative that will hopefully be able to use the RGB displaying capabilities of the system. I recently purchased an Archos Multimedia Jukebox which has the capability to output its screen through RGB. This works with my setup, but is a far cry from the Empeg due to quirky and badly designed software. I have space in the ash tray for things such as the remote display of the NEO or dension products mentioned in some threads in this board, but I'm looking for yet other alternatives, preferably one which can use my composite RGB displaying capabilities. I would appreciate any thoughts. Thx!

Why not leave your Empeg installed, but put it (in its docking station) in the trunk, or under a [well ventilated] seat, and get a cheapish CCD video camera - one of the small "coin" sized ones, and mount that so it can see the display of the empeg, Then route the front or rear 4 volt left/right audio outputs from the Empeg to your new head units Aux-in, and the video signal to your RGB display that can show/see the Empegs display [admittedly in monochrome] on your head unit.

You can control the Empeg via a IR remote (with IR extender) if needed, or with a Sony wired Stalk control if you have the Tuner module attached.

If you want to go the next level up, then add-on one of the BOB-3 Video overlay modules or even simpler the XBOB display board from Decade Engineering - that will take your composite video image from your CCD camera, and overlay text information in the top or bottom half of the screen (as appropriate) where the Empeg display is not showing.
The textual information could include additional information like:
track information, current Empeg temperature - whatever the Empeg has available in /proc/* - and its all sent out the serial port of the Empeg to the BOB-3/XBOB modules serial input via a shell script/program on the empeg which starts whenever the empeg does.

VNC works ok with an empeg over a network. Why not just install a computer in the trunk next to your empeg?

http://www.linuxdevices.com/directory/Hardware/Systems/

Lots of tiny systems there. You could get some sort of a serial control pad up front in your ash tray to make the cpu switch between empeg vnc, dvd, odbII interface, whatever. Throw in an ir extender for the remote. No need for a clunky keyboard in the car. Of course, it's always a possibility for the passangers. You could kill two birds with one stone and get an ir keyboard. The extender could transmit kbd and empeg remote.

Or, if you really desire kicken visuals. Do what I mentioned above, but split the empeg output into the audio in on the pc. Then depending on the resolution you have, you could run some sort of pc visualsation program on the audio input. Either run it above/below your empeg remote, or overlay the empeg screen somehow.

Transient too! Imagine hitting a button on your empeg remote and seeing the empeg ui slide up (semi translucent!) on top of full color visuals.

This is assuming you're willing to install a computer in your trunk and can hack some software/hardware.

VNC works ok with an empeg over a network. Why not just install a computer in the trunk next to your empeg?

Hmmm, I wonder if anybody makes a "VNC on a chip" type product? Just enough logic for RGB out, ethernet, VNC, and enough of an OS to load VNC. I guess a USB host would be helpful to for control of the remote system. Would be a cool way to do thin network clients and perfect for a project like this. Of course an old 486 would be cheaper, but not nearly as clean or easy to setup.

-Mike

Of course, VNC, unlike the VFD in the car player is not limited by resolution, bit-depth, or colour.

A UI of any size and colour could be devised...

If your set on putting a PC in your car I would suggest a Mini-ITX board read about them here:
http://www.mini-itx.com
The nicest thing about them being you can get a dc-dc converter for 12v input for $50- about the same price as an inverter. These boards also have built-in tv-out.

number6, thanks for the idea. Do you know of anyone who has tried this CCD video camera thing? Do you know how close such a camera can get to the screen of the Emppeg and still capture it OK? I don't think I can set the camera such that it gets onobstructed view of the empeg more than a few inches away.

Klaruz, thank you for the idea. Looks interesting but probably beyond the current possiblities for me. How is it that VNC works with an empeg over the network? Do you mean that I can get the empeg screen on a VNC connected to the empeg (including menu traversion, which is what I care the most so I can control the Empeg)? Or do I have to fool around with hijack to achieve this?

have a search on this BBS for a post from someone around Xmas 2001 - someone did something similar with their Empeg in a home docking station and hooked it up to their TV set - they used a Video camera.

But one of those CCD cameras will do the trick I think.

Read This Post from BBS User Alan - he was looking at making a package of camera and stuff in case other folks wanted one - maybe a PM to Alan might get details of what he did from him and how well it worked.

Yup:

http://www.beaglebros.com/empeg/empegVNC/

You do need a developer image and hijack though.

OK. So I said the idea of using VNC was out of what I was willing to try. But this appears to be my only option so I've looked a little bit at what it would take. Perhaps you can clear some things.

Is there a way for the VNC server to start automatically every time the player is started? That would be essential in the car environment.

Tiny computer. I am quite proficient with hacking/programming, but limited to DOS, Win32 type stuff. Never done anything with Unix/Linux. What is involved in getting one of those tiny computers to turn itself on/off together with the Empeg, and then automatically set itself to do the only job it needs, to show the Empeg screen via a composite output?

How about the connection between the Empeg and the tiny computer? Does it need to be ethernet for VNC? I've found that kind of hard to set up.

Sorry for all these questions that might sound trivial if you are hacking away constantly. I've been removed from programing and hacking for a few years. But I am still obsesed with having my Empeg in my car despite no dash space.

Thanks!

Is there a way for the VNC server to start automatically every time the player is started?

There's the generic pre-init system, or you could use the earlier way of replacing the binary init-file with a script that does the same thing as the binary init-file (mounts drives, starts player) as well as start the VNC server.

What is involved in getting one of those tiny computers to turn itself on/off together with the Empeg, and then automatically set itself to do the only job it needs

You need hardware that automaticaly boots when power is applied - I assume that these small computers can do that, but haven't played with them myself.
Then you need to set up the init-files so that the wanted software starts at boot - shouldn't be a problem at all - normally lots of services autostart on boot on a Linux system, disable the ones you don't want/need and add the VNC..
You'd probably want you drives mounted read-only, as you otherwise would get into problems on sudden power removal - you'd probably want to disable logging so that logging has no need to write to disk.
But nothing dictates (except good sense ) that you use Linux - if you're more comfortable setting up a Windows system to do the single task of presenting the VNC screen, then use that...

Does it need to be ethernet for VNC? I've found that kind of hard to set up.

There might (I don't know) be ways to run it over USB - serial would be rather bandwidth-limited - but I believe ethernet would be the easiest.
Use fixed IP-addresses for both (like 192.168.0.1 and 192.168.0.2) and there should be very few problems - there's no advanced routing, , DHCP servers, switches etc involved - it's just computer to computer via a crossed ethernet wire...

I've probably missed lots of things, others will surely add more info. If you run into specific problems, this BBS will no doubt be here to assist you to overcome them.

/Michael

Look at
http://www.sics.se/~adam/uvnc/
and
http://www.axel.com/uk/vnc_en.html
(Hardware VNC client wirt VGA out)

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)

I'm 99% sure that vnc doesn't require more bandwidth than a seral port with ppp will give you. I seem to remember ppp over serial was used regularly in the Mark I times.

Marius (Escort cab + Mark II)

The first link is for a VNC server. We already have one of those.

The second is a dedicated VNC client, but, as you said, it's VGA output, not NTSC/PAL/SECAM/whatever. It's also 11" by 11", and what the OP wants is something around 2" by 2", I'd think.

VNC will use as much or as little bandwidth as you throw at it. It works by sending an update whenever the client requests it. A client usually sends a request when it's done receiving and displaying the last update. So if the bandwidth is small, then each update will come slower, so you'll have a low framerate.

Of course, it might end up wasting bandwidth if you have a big pipe, as it could potentially update the VNC client more often than the screen gets updated, but in a two-node network with this being the only service, who cares. Okay, it could overload the CPU, but I (or someone else) could update the VNC server to fix that problem.

I wonder it it is possible to use the serial input to the VFD and translate it somehow into a video overlay (ie, on screen display, OSD).

Here is a simple example using a PICF628:
http://www.blackboxcamera.com/Stv5730a/applications.htm

I imagine someone could figure this out.

Better yet, maybe the VNC interface can be outputted through the serial port for an OSD.

See the second post in this thread - this has already been covered.

Your idea is silly, and implausible at best. Bah, on screen display, what were you thinking?

Edit: and yes, I am joking.

Thanks to all for all the great suggestions. I think I'm going the VNC route. I set up the VNC server on my Empeg and connect to it from my desktop and also from my iPaq handheld. I cannot get the web page described in the EmpegVNC site to work, all I get is the header of the page displayed as text.

I intend to use the iPaq for the car scenario, or perhaps a Jornada Handheld (clamshell with 3/4 size keyboard) because of the boot time issue and size. I looked and was heavily temped by VIA Epia mini TX based small PC, but that was still too large to fit in my Glovebox. The other problem was the boot time, it just takes too long.

Regardless of whether I use the palm sized or handheld size WinCE device, I still need to figure out two things:

1) How to automatically start the VNC server. What is the linux equivalent of autoexec.bat, or the "startup" program group, or somehow specify that the VNC server should load as service/daemon? mtempsch mentions the pre-init system, but I could not find information related to that, nor did I find a file/directory in the Empeg with a name similar to that.

2) How to establish an ethernet connection between the empeg and the WinCE device. I have not yet tried this as I still don't have the network card on the WinCE device, but I just suspect this is not going to be as easy. Even now that the Empeg is connected to my PC via an ethernet hub (with only a laptop in addition to the Empeg and the Desktop), the comunication link between the VNC viewer and the PC seems sluggish. I takes a while to receive feedback in the VNC viewer for menu traversing actions.

If I use the handheld device, my problem is one of screen orientation. The handheld is a portrait type screen and the Empeg is very landscape. It would be nice if I could rotate the VNC display by 90 deg. It would be even nicer if only the Empeg VFD showed up without the rest of the fascia.

Thanks again for all the good info and thoughts.

I just figured out the pre-init thing. I thought it was some standard linux thing and not an Empeg add-on. I had been searching with a hyphen and wasnt lucky, but ran across "preinit" without the hyphen, downloaded and installed it, and have my vnc server starting up automatically.

I guess the least expensive and least "difficult" way to connect wold be to mount the iPAQ docking station in the car and use PPP over the serial link. This is directly supported by the iPAQ, but you may have to recompile the empeg kernel (i don't rememeber whether it has ppp) There are some very good and easy to undersatnd tutorials on how to set up this link. (you could also charge the iPAQ from the car.

The other alternative is to have a CF or PCMCIA-jacket on your iPAQ and an ethernet-card with a cable to the back of the iPAQ. This will give better bandwith, but usually a rather awkward iPAQ, as the card/canle will go out on top of the unit.

A PCMCIA-jacket with a wlan card is another good but expensive option.

A connection over IrDA is probably possible, but more awkward, and I do not know if the VNC protocoll is suitable for a high-packet-loss link?

Let us know your experiences. I have actually got an iPAQ and a jacket with WLAN plus an access point (And a car-power-to-clean 5V converter)...

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)

I was thinking of using a Jornada handeld 720 instead of the iPaq. It has both an CF slot and a PCMCIA slot so I plan to put a VGA/TV-Out CF card and a network PCMCIA card. It also has a keyboard which is more friendly in the car than the iPaq touchscreen. All could also be done with the iPaq but I would need to buy a two-slot PCMCIA jacket and then the two cards (and would be without a keyboard) -- ends up being more expensive since I can get a Jornada 720 from ebay for $400.

However, the idea of a wlan sounds very very appealing. I have no experience with wlans. What kind of device would convert the cabled ethernet in the empeg into a wireless that can talk to the wlan card on the CE device? Is that the device you power with the 12DCto5DC converter?

[edit]
Another thought is bluetooth. Both the Jornada and the iPaq have Bluetooth. Do you know of some device that can plug in the ethernet port of the Empeg and comunicate using Bluetooth transparently to the Empeg?

What I am tihniking of using for WLAN is some old 802.11 equipment I have laying around (Not 802.11b). There also exists something for 802.11b, which has been discussed on this BBS before. I don't remember the details. 802.11 cards exist for PCMCIA, and 802.11b cards exist for both pcmcia and Compactflash.

But, if your objective is to not use the PDA screen, but rather use an external screen, then your jornada-idea sounds good. I think I have got a jornada with pcmcia+cf somewhere as well :-)

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)

About Bluetooth: Yes, there are such devices. I used to know these things... hm... RedM and Axis used to have them, and Ericsson produced some prototypes, but I don't think they were ever mass-produced. "Network Proximity Plug" and "Blip" I seem to remember they were called.

Ï'll have a look around.

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)