I just have to get this off my chest...

I will never buy a BMW product ever again!

I dropped my car off at the dealer about a month ago to fix two things. The leather wrapped around my dashboard was shrinking and coming loose (no doubt a result of the amazing Texas summer heat combined with a black interior). Also, there was a funny vibration coming from the pedals, even at idle.

To fix the dashboard, they ended up having to order a whole new one from Germany, which took forever, and then they had to order a new VIN plate, which also took forever. What's wrong with the old VIN plate? Probably some kind of insert-once-only mechanism to prevent various forms of car theft. Okay, I can deal with that.

They gave me some initial grief about the pedal vibration after diagnosing it as some kind of clutch problem, calling it a "wear item" and thus not elgible for warranty repair. B*llsh*t! When's the last time you heard about a clutch wearing out at 26K miles? Anyway, they agreed to fix it, only when I picked up the car, it felt like the pedal was sticking when you pulled it out -- not smooth at all. Okay, fine, so I gave them grief and said to go fix it again, and they said "nope, it's working fine." Now I'm off to go pick up my car (again) and see if it's still fubar.

I get almost wistful thinking back to my reliable old '91 Nissan 240SX.

There's one more year left to my BMW warranty. I intend to trade up to something Japanese between now and then. Any thoughts on this? Has Japanese car quality remained as good as it used to be? Is it possible to buy a car today, perform the regular maintenance, and expect it to just work?

Grrrr.... the Mazda RX-8 looks pretty damn attractive, except replacing the stereo would be a pain.

Hmmm. I've had my '87 325e for almost 10 years now. It had about 60,000 miles on it when I got it. It now has over 160,000 miles on it. In that time, the only major repairs I've had have been due to collisions and having the clutch replaced and fixing a hole in the exhaust. There have been some other minor aesthetic problems, but nothing serious.

I can't say anything about quality recently, but it's always possible to get a lemon. And which ``pedal was sticking when you pulled it out''? And what were you pulling out? The pedal? I know when I got the clutch replaced on my BMW, I could barely drive the thing I had gotten so used to a sloppy clutch. It took me nearly a week to relearn to drive it. The same thing isn't happening to you, is it?

the Mazda RX-8 looks pretty damn attractive

Wait, I thought you were complaining about reliability. And you want to go to a Mazda?

Jeez, get yerself a Honda or a Toyota and be done with it.

Ditto. Hondas are great, high quality vehicles.

This is one of my pet peeves. Why do people claim Hondas are so great? They claim that they last a long time or something similar, but how many old Hondas do you see on the road? Maybe it's different where you live, but around here, I seldom see any Honda more than five or so years old, whereas I see many other makes well older than that.

I think Honda reliability is an urban legend.

I think Honda reliability is an urban legend.

I know that anecdotal evidence isn't proper statistical proof. But personal experience from three Hondas in my family has shown that they are more reliable and maintenance-free than VW's or Nissans.

My girlfriend drives an 88 accord with 220,000 and my brother-in-law drives an 86 accord with 260,000. Both run great and don't even burn oil. Those are two examples just in my family...if I thought about it a few minutes, I could probably come up with a dozen more.

And speaking of statistical evidence... Look at how Mazda stacks up in this piece of statistics...

Hey, my anti-evidence is anecdotal as well, but it's all the evidence I've got. Maybe it's different on the left coast.

To point out the flaw in those statistics, those cars are only four years old. Most of those problems were likely under-warranty problems, when people are more likely to report them because they'll get fixed for free, or the reporters at least have that hope, which means that there are likely to be more piddling problems. I could go on, but I won't.

Agreed, I didn't look up the details of JD Power's statistical gathering methods. And 90 percent of all statistics are made-up anyway. But it is the industry standard statistic, has been for a long time.

My point being that I said that I don't see old Hondas on the road. That, combined with JD Powers' stats would seem to indicate that Hondas work perfectly initially, then, at six years old, they spontaneously flip over and burst into flames.

Edit: BTW, notice my nice new title!

A vibration would probably off the clutch release bearing being shot or misaligned not the clutch plate it's self dying. Older BMWs have a problem with bad clutch judder when the clutch is dying i had this and then the bearing through its hand in and i had to drive home with no clutch which is fun in a manual.

Now if you still have a problem it might be something misaligned in the clutch assembly it might be some muppet working on your car.

I got a BMW and it is fine getting on abit but still runs fine you might be unfortunate and got a lemon or a bad dealer.

But i love mine the best diesel i have ever driven

My point being that I said that I don't see old Hondas on the road.

Or maybe you do, but they just don't look old because they're in such good shape?

Edit: BTW, notice my nice new title!

I think that worked out to about 90 minutes to notice it. Not long at all! Good job.

I think Honda reliability is an urban legend.

Maybe in cars (my dad's 92 Accord had more problems than any of our cars, including 70s vintage VW Bugs and Busses, and an 86 Mazda 626 that I drove for until 97, well over 200k miles), but Honda motorcycles just do not break. Its amazing the workmanship that goes into them. I'll stand by their motorcycles anytime, but avoid the cars at all costs (ok, except for a NSX).

Unlike some people, I know what older models look like by shape, not by degree of oxidation.

And I actually noticed it shortly after it happened, as I somehow managed to check ``Who's Online'' apparently directly after it was changed, before I made another post. I just didn't point it out 'til now because I hadn't made a sufficiently off-topic post until now.

I've so far been involved with 4 hondas personally, and all have been great. The 81 Accord was driven for probably 12 years untill it developed an occasional overheating problem. The '91 that replaced it is still going strong, and has had some minor repair work, but nothing major. The '95 Accord is about to pass 100,000, and while it's had a few small problems, it hasn't had anything major. I drive an '01 Prelude that has had it's power steering rack replaced under waranty, which did take 3 weeks to get in stock, but in the mean time I could drive the car fine. (On a side note - while your car is under waranty, be sure to take it to a non-dealer mechanic at least once for a good oil change and look over. I have no idea how long the power steering rack was leaking, but the dealership wasn't the one to notice and tell me)

Now, the seccond reason to buy a honda is resale value. Last time I looked, you paid more, but you get more back when you sold it. The scary thing was that each 10,000 miles took $1,000 off the value of the car, meaning that ever mile on the freeway costs you ten cents in a relatively new Honda.

The only thing thats going to get my mother to stop buying Hondas is a new Acura. While I'm not quite that devout, I'm pretty convinced for the time being.

Matthew

I just got back from the dealer. I drove my car again and was able to better isolate the problem. When the clutch is in its top 1/3 of travel (from neutral to just before it engages), you felt all kinds of weird vibrations, particularly when the car is moving and you're shifting gears. I got my service advisor and the shop foreman to drive the car, then they drove another Z3 for comparison. The foreman's theory is that one of the clutch plates is warped. So, that now means I've twice driven my butt up to the dealer only to drive back in the loaner car again -- two hours round-trip, duking it out with rush-hour traffic.

(Footnote: on the phone, my service advisor had said that he'd driven the car, and so had the shop foreman, and they both said my clutch was the smoothest one in the dealership. Lying bastard.)

The J.D. Powers numbers are interesting. They seem to say that, if I really want to buy something that's likely to "just work" and is sufficiently zippy that I should buy a Lexus IS 300, an Infiniti G35 Coupe, or an Acura CL Type S. Heaven only knows whether the RX-8 will turn into a disaster or not; I've heard horror stories about older rotary engines.

Or, maybe I should just say 'screw everybody', get a Hummer, and double park in the compact car spots.

Have you read this? http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/0,3959,833424,00.asp?kc=BAZD103019TX1K0100547

It was discussed in slashdot (When Appliances Revolt) here:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/17/2126211&mode=thread

The articles talk about problems with the BMW 745i. Apparently, some idiot decided to run everything using Windows CE. The code is so buggy that all sorts of wacky things are happening.

In reply to:

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My point being that I said that I don't see old Hondas on the road.

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Well... I always see really old Audi's on the road, didn't keep my 99 A4 from being the biggest piece of crap I ever wasted my money on... But now I have a new Acura RSX Type S... I love it.

I live on the east coast, and every Honda I've ever known personally has been a great car. I had friends in high school who were driving the traditional hand-me-down Accords from the 80's, and none of them had any real problems. My girlfriend's family just replaced their '88 Accord with a 2003 Accord. I say that if a car reaches 10 years old, certainly 15 years old, it's shown its reliability.

Honestly though, I don't see many Accords on the roads either. But think about it. Overall, they're pretty "normal" looking cars. They don't exactly stand out. How often do you drive around affirmatively looking for Accords? No, you notice the Hummers and the TTs and the other flashier cars. I bet you'd see more Accords than you think if you really looked for them.

Just based on personal experience, even if my Odyssey "flip over and burst into flames," I'd cherish those 6 years I had it. Then I'd take advantage of the 7 year warranty we got

I wouldn't buy a car with BMW's iDRIVE even if it was free of bugs. The dealers have an iDRIVE demo console where you can play with it. I can't imagine trying to use that thing while driving. It's an ergonomic disaster.

ive had my lexus for 2 years now, the only thing i have had to do in that time is change the oil every 3,000, and get new break pads. other than that... nothing.

I see many a honda from the 80's driving around. I've also seen many honda's with close or over 200,000 miles...

To at least add a contrasting point of view, I've never had a serious issue with my '98 M3. I've had the two routine services done that they recommend (Inspections I & II for stuff like fluids and belts retuning the engine), plus the oil changed a few times and maybe break pads once.

Only non-maintenance issue was when I spilled coke into an airbag-related sensor in the seatbelt. Not exactly their fault.

So I've had a great BMW experience. YMMV (and obviously has).

John