#148185 - 13/03/2003 14:54
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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To unfold a little, it could mean that, or it could mean what you said. It's just not the tautology that you said it was.
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Bitt Faulk
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#148186 - 13/03/2003 14:54
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: fusto]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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In reply to:
I guess that kind-a makes sense, doesnt it?
I'm still not for war...
It does make some sense. However, a single tumbler glass of Anthrax can kill thousands. I think it is unrealistic to expect a war with Iraq to destroy absolutely all the Anthrax they have (if they have any - I'm not sure we know the answer to that even now) and every factory that can make the stuff (as allegedly some of the factories are in caves, inside trucks and on trains).
Other reasons for war (oil, regeme change) seem more logical but less moral and ethical.
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#148187 - 13/03/2003 14:56
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Might want to elaborate on that statement a little...
Woops, now I’ve really gotten off track. I think hate-crime legislation is wrong because it puts us in the position of judging people’s moral values. While I believe there are objective moral values that we should all adopt, to judge a person based on what they believe is horrid. First, it’s speculative that you can even say with any certainty what a defendant believes. Second, though I believe in a moral absolute I don’t think we all agree on what it is and so it’d be crazy to try and judge people based on their morals. Instead we can only judge actions (Bitt’s point earlier). Hate-crime legislation is the first step toward prosecution people based on their beliefs instead of their actions.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#148188 - 13/03/2003 14:57
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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I think the point FerretBoy is trying to make is that if there is a standard for morality, then every action is moral or immoral, regardless of the belief that led to it. There is no amorality.
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~ John
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#148189 - 13/03/2003 14:58
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tonyc]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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Damn it!
*cleans water off monitor and keyboard*
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Donato MkII/080000565 MkIIa/010101253 ricin.us
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#148190 - 13/03/2003 15:01
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: ricin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Damn it!
*cleans water off monitor and keyboard*
eh? what's that all about?
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~ John
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#148191 - 13/03/2003 15:04
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: mdavey]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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It's irrelevant how many popular votes a candidate got. That is NOT how our system works. What matters is legislative votes.
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#148192 - 13/03/2003 15:04
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Flag on the play. Circular reasoning. 15 yards, repeat first down.
You’re right.
/me moves back 15 yards
Everyone not believing the same thing doesn’t PROVE that we’re all not adopting it the way we should, though it is a possible explanation for how there can be an objective moral standard with people having differing opinions as to what it is. Providing a possible explanation refutes your “proof” that everyone having differing opinions means there is no objective moral standard.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#148193 - 13/03/2003 15:10
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Hate-crime legislation is the first step toward prosecution people based on their beliefs instead of their actions.
Ah okay. Now that you've explained the situation, I agree 100%.
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#148194 - 13/03/2003 15:12
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Everyone not believing the same thing doesn’t PROVE that we’re all not adopting it the way we should, though it is a possible explanation for how there can be an objective moral standard with people having differing opinions as to what it is. Providing a possible explanation refutes your “proof” that everyone having differing opinions means there is no objective moral standard. Well played. Can't argue with that one... Guess I gotta punt.
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#148195 - 13/03/2003 15:12
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: JeffS]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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OK, First off, I agree with you. I do believe there are moral absolutes. Unfortunately the morality issue is in essence a religious question. Individuals that believe in the existence of a supreme being over us tend to believe that there are absolutes based on that God. Those who believe there are no absolutes tend not to believe in a god higher than man, and as such, all ethics can be situational. If you ask me, stealing is wrong, I don't care how hungry you are.
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#148196 - 13/03/2003 15:21
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It's irrelevant how many popular votes a candidate got. That is NOT how our system works. What matters is legislative votes. Very true. The system was developed to counter a number of things, not the least of which is the mathematical model implied by the one-person-one-vote voting method. Which is why there should be a consistutional amendment changing how we vote altogether, preferably to adopt a voting method like the Borda Count Method.
Edited by wfaulk (13/03/2003 15:21)
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Bitt Faulk
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#148197 - 13/03/2003 15:24
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: JBjorgen]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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It was in reference to how funny that was when I read it. We more commonly see this on the board from Tony, with his tea. 
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Donato MkII/080000565 MkIIa/010101253 ricin.us
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#148198 - 13/03/2003 15:25
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Yeah but doesn't the Borda Count Method mean if there are eighteen Presidential candidates on the ballot, that I have to rank them 1-18? The page you linked says "first place votes," "second place votes".. Whereas our elections are just "I want this guy to win."
Seems to me that the Borda Count method could lead to someone not very popular being elected just because nobody knows a lot about them. Or maybe I'm not understanding the math.
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#148199 - 13/03/2003 15:34
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Borda Count Method
This would be interesting, as you would no longer have the lesser of two evils voting that many people do. IE "I would have voted for so and so, but I knew he didn't have a chance being a non mainstream party. So I voted for Bob (R), since I didn't want Joe (D) in office". Instead, you could vote for the oddball party, giving them 3 votes, while 2 votes would go to Bob, and one to Joe.
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#148200 - 13/03/2003 15:34
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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As I understand it (and I'll give you that it's been a while since I've gone through it mathematically), if you don't have a preference, then you can average the unused entries and give them all the same amount. I think that this would not be a true Borda Count, but it gives the correct result. You do have something of a problem when you want to vote for one person, and against one person, but don't much care about the rest, but really only in a UI way. The math still works out. And, honestly, when's the last time you saw a real-world election with more than four candidates?
There are other methods that work, too, especially in the common idiom of wanting to vote against someone (something I wish I could have done in the last presidential election). At least better than the current plurality method.
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Bitt Faulk
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#148201 - 13/03/2003 15:37
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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you would no longer have the lesser of two evils voting And that's pretty much the only thing that props up our two-party system, which is in dire need of being kicked to the curb.
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Bitt Faulk
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#148202 - 13/03/2003 15:44
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Ooh! I just found http://electionmethods.org which does a good job of explaining real-world voting issues. They endorse Condorcet voting, but anything's better than what we have today.
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Bitt Faulk
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#148203 - 13/03/2003 20:40
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I dodn't mean to say that our system is perfect, only to point out that there was no fraud, as seemed to be implied.
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#148204 - 13/03/2003 20:42
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: lectric]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Oh wait, it wasn't implied, it was said.
Bush defrauded the US people
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#148205 - 13/03/2003 21:01
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: JeffS]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/08/2000
Posts: 351
Loc: chicago
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I think hate-crime legislation is wrong because it puts us in the position of judging people’s moral values. While I believe there are objective moral values that we should all adopt, to judge a person based on what they believe is horrid.
while that may appear to be the end result, i don't think that's the motivation behind hate crime legislation. i tend to think of it as an anti-terrorism measure. certain criminal acts go beyond the boundaries of the immediate victim of the crime, to do lasting psychological damage to a community. whether we're talking about burning an african-american church to the ground, tying up a man and beating him to death for being gay, or flying a plane into the world trade center, these acts of terror have broad impact on a wider community of victims. hate crime legislation attempts to capture that impact and assign it a value.
First, it’s speculative that you can even say with any certainty what a defendant believes.
if the defendent's motivations are not crystal clear, i don't believe hate crime punishments should apply. those motivations, though, are often made very well known through their words and actions before and after the crime.
Second, though I believe in a moral absolute I don’t think we all agree on what it is and so it’d be crazy to try and judge people based on their morals. Instead we can only judge actions (Bitt’s point earlier).
or, i would argue, the intent is to judge the full impact of those actions on society.
Hate-crime legislation is the first step toward prosecution people based on their beliefs instead of their actions.
in the wrong hands, perhaps. i have mixed feelings about how effective hate crime legislation has been, but overall i believe the lawmakers' intentions to be good. a law is a tool, though, and is only as good as the public prosecutor who wields it.
--dan.
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#148206 - 13/03/2003 21:03
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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I dodn't mean to say that our system is perfect, only to point out that there was no fraud, as seemed to be implied.
I didn't vote for either of the 2 Florida combatants in 2000, but was interested to read Jeffrey Toobin's book (recently out in paperback) on that subject, Too Close To Call, which I got from a friend a few weeks ago. Fairly concise, pretty easy reading. I'm curious to know if you've seen it / read it. What did you think?
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#148207 - 13/03/2003 21:08
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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But your definition of absolute morals assumes there's only one standard, and that's clearly not the case.
I think I could suggest a standard that would come close to making the case. Suppose we defined morality as conforming to a code of ethics that caused the least amount of harm to others?
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#148208 - 13/03/2003 21:11
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Hate-crime legislation is the first step toward prosecution people based on their beliefs instead of their actions.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't hate crime prosecution still the prosecution of illegal ACTS, with stiffer penalties applied because of the nature (i.e., "hate") of the act?
If this is the first step down a slippery slope, it is a small step indeed.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#148209 - 13/03/2003 21:54
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Never even heard of it... Perhaps I'll check it out.
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#148210 - 14/03/2003 05:10
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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If this is the first step down a slippery slope, it is a small step indeed.
Yes, I'll agree with that. However, I feel very strongly that this is a line that shouldn't be crossed for any reason. Stiffer penalties based on people's beliefs or motivation is still judging them based on what they were thinking, not only what they were doing. Though some religions teach we will be judged for our thoughts, this is not a responsibility the state should bare. We live in a country where one of our greatest freedoms is that we can think and believe how we like; it is only our actions for which we should be punished.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#148211 - 14/03/2003 05:32
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: djc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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whether we're talking about burning an african-american church to the ground, tying up a man and beating him to death for being gay
I'd say buring any church to the ground or beating up any person will have a negative impact on the community, whether the church or person belonged to a minority or not.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#148212 - 14/03/2003 07:07
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I dodn't mean to say that our system is perfect, only to point out that there was no fraud, as seemed to be implied. Well, the facts exist that the Florida vote was very, very, close, and that there were a lot of allegations of voting misconduct (namely, preventing people, mostly blacks, from voting by restricting entrace to the voting places and refusing to allow people to correct practical ballot mistakes). The additional fact that the (Jeb) Bush administration did not find it necessary to listen to those allegations, and simply declare (George) Bush the winner seems fairly fraudulent to me.
Of course, fraud implies intent, and I cannot prove or show any concrete evidence of that. In addition, my facts could be wrong, as I haven't thought about it in quite a while, but I'm pretty sure they're correct.
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Bitt Faulk
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#148213 - 14/03/2003 08:30
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't hate crime prosecution still the prosecution of illegal ACTS, with stiffer penalties applied because of the nature (i.e., "hate") of the act?
If this is the first step down a slippery slope, it is a small step indeed.
With this in mind, I think it's funny that the nature of the act (the "hate") isn't, by itself, a crime. The KKK can hold rallies, burn crosses, etc. all they want, to express their views, but when those views are combined with a crime, all the sudden, those views become a factor in how heavily the crime is prosecuted. It does seem to be a double standard..
That being said, I have a very difficult time sympathizing with the plight of anyone who's committed any crime, and even more of a difficult time sympathizing with anyone who hates others on the basis of race, religion, etc. So this inequity isn't going to bother me all that much... It's a double standard, but it's not going to keep me awake at night. There are far worse injustices in our legal/criminal justice system.
BTW the words you quoted in your post weren't mine... Just wanted to make that clear, since you replied to my post but cut-and-pasted FerretBoy's original statement.
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#148214 - 14/03/2003 08:52
Re: What is Blair up to?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I think I could suggest a standard that would come close to making the case. Suppose we defined morality as conforming to a code of ethics that caused the least amount of harm to others? Not a bad suggestion, but not all ethical/moral guidelines have anything to do with causing harm to others. For instance, it's honorable for a Palestinian to harm Jews (and himself, of course) with a suicide bombing. Their moral guidelines are just as real to them as mine are to me. I think you and I would both agree his are flawed, but from his perspective, and world-wide, I'd say the plurality opinion would be that taking human life, for any reason is wrong. So while your suggestion is good for most people, I don't think it "makes the case" that there is one absolute set of moral guidelines.
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