Unfortunatly for me, the radio mount in my vehicle is about 4-6 inches above knee level. Because of this I have to look slightly downward to see the empeg screen. The faceplate on the mark 2 is so thick and centered around the screen, you can't see half of the top line which is where the song title is for most info screens. This pretty much makes the top line useless without leaning down. Even sitting on a desk in front of you can show this effect. Too late now but the faceplate could have been adjusted a bit during design to reduce this effect. Then again, maybe this IS the adjusted version of a really bad faceplate design.

Alex Lear

maybe this IS the adjusted version of a really bad faceplate design.

Because you install the Mk2 at knee level, it is an adjusted version of a really bad design?
YMBJ

Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

Two things are real important in a car:
1)radio placement
2)cup holder placement

Sounds like you need to address #1 :)

AL

I feel I must point out that a large number of tests were carried out
during the design of the faceplate to give as large a viewing angle
as possible, for both left and right seating positions.

Due to the design of the VFD itself, the actual phosphor is some distance
behind the glass, and the inevitable result is that the viewing angle is
not optimal for a contoured fascia. That said, I think calling it a "really bad
design" is somewhat insulting to the people who spend weeks on it.

It's not my personal favourite, I'll admit, but that is more of a stylistic
thing rather than any criticism of the implementation. Some compromises had to
be made during the design, and it was pointed out (by me, in fact), that if the
unit was mounted very low it lost a few pixels off the top. However, (a) there
wasn't any really practical way of solving this, and (b) the vast majority of
cars install the radio much closer to normal eye level.

The only reason I really made a point of it was that at the time I had a
Citroen BX, in which the radio is behind a flap down just in front of the
gear stick, which isn't really a particularly good place anyway. Mind you,
that's the French for you :)

On balance, I don't think anything else could have been done to fix this
(very rare) problem. I can only suggest finding a way to either tilt it very slightly or move it higher, or simply live with it.

Patrick

Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.

You guys are not reading my post correctly. First of all, I am not mounting it at knee level, I said 4-6 inches ABOVE knee level. Or if that is confusing, about 12 inches below chin level. However you look at it, it is lower than my eyes which is normal for many cars, trucks, ect. It points straight out of my dash which is the only way it can be mounted. This mounting position is not my choice, it is the stock mounting position. In fact I have mounted it in the top of a double DIN space to reduce this effect and it still happends. I don't really want to hear from people that have "ideal" mounting positions because you can't understand what a problem it is.

Obviously, the sceen is viewable from the left and right. However up and down viewing angles are limited by the faceplate sticking out so much. Yes, I realize the VFD is set in behind the colored display and this is why the problem exists.

I did not say the faceplate was a bad design. I meant maybe this is what they came up with as a fix to a preliminary design that was much worse.

I personally don't think it matters how much time was spend on designing the faceplate. If it is not usable in many vehicles, then empeg should rethink their design. That is a FACT so don't get mad at me for saying it. If the mark 2 oval was just shifted up or made slightly higher toward the top then the screen could be seen from above the unit. You never have to look up at it, but it is common to look down toward it at home and in the car.

I know I am not the only one that has this problem, I am just the first to mention it. Don't get so defensive, this is CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. This is a problem that may not be fixable but if no one says anything it continues to be a problem. Empeg may not even know this is a problem because they may have only seen the empeg in cars with perfect mounting positions. What happends if a major car audio publication reviews the empeg in a vehicle like mine. They are first going to be faced with an impossible installation because of my dash shape which other manufacturers compensate for and then the screen will not be viewable. Empeg might get a bad review for a problem they didn't even know about.

So, easy on the harsh comments. My viewing problem is REAL!


Alex Lear

First off I don't think anyone meant any of their comments to be harsh. Most of the people on this board can be privately emailed or even called on the phone, and are usually happy to help anyone.

I was just checking the viewing angles of my MK1 and it seems that it would be ok in your application (2feet away 1 foot down). I haven't had the opportunity to see an MK2, I've got an extra MK1 blue face plate if you want to try to retrofit it onto the MK2, if it would even fit.

AL

I thought about using the mark 2 with just the colored screen and leave off the faceplate but then I would have to buy new buttons ( the knob would be OK though ). Really, I don't like the idea of having to take off the faceplate just to use the empeg properly.

If you set the empeg on a desk in front of you at about chest height like most desks are you have this problem. If Hugo had a faceplate on the empeg in this picture here he would not have been able to see many of the characters on the top line. The characters on the top left side are the most often used yet they are the most ofter covered.

I am one of the people that gladly helps out others (after Tony) on this BBS. I thought some of the posts were "harsh" because the first reply made it sound like it was my installation that was causing the viewing problem. One of the things I thought about when posting the original message was the replies from people that have ideal installs or mark 1 faceplates.

Alan, the mark 2 viewing angle is greatly decreased when viewing from the top side. Much different from the mark 1.

Alex Lear

What kind of vehicle is yours in mark? I'm guessing it is up high enought to see all the characters. ??

Alex Lear

Hey, no fair using my photograph as an example!

It's interesting that you're having trouble seeing the display and your radio isn't even mounted down very low. I understand your complaint, but it seems to me that the Empeg folks did everything they can to make sure it was readable in the majority of cases. Your car must be an exception.

One other thing to throw into the mix here... isn't the driver's seat adjustment a factor in the visibility equation? Maybe your problem would go away if you just leaned your seat back a notch?

___________
Tony Fabris

...It's in a honda accord '99.. take a look at my install pictures here:
http://mse.ufl.edu/~mark/empeg/

Actually, honda's have a really nice placement for the stereo, which is why this doesn't really effect me too much..
-mark

...proud to have owned one of the first Mark I units

That's a really good placement and it looks like its even tilted up.

Alex Lear

That's a really good placement and it looks like its even tilted up.

Yeah, most cars make sure to tilt the radio display toward the driver. I'm surprised yours doesn't.

The best radio location I've ever seen is the 1980's Volkswagens. My '88 GTI and its counterparts (Golf, Jetta, etc.) had the radio as the very top item in the dashboard, very close to the instrument cluster, just barely below the windshield line. You could actually look directly at the radio and still drive with your peripheral vision. Car reviewers commended VW for doing it that way.

The only problem with the high mounting like that was heat. The radio got a lot of heat from the sun shining directly onto it and onto the dash top above it.

___________
Tony Fabris

I have a 2000 toyota 4runner and the view of the upper left corner is slightly obstructed. I think I miss most of the first character in the song title. The rest of the top line is fine. From the passenger seat it looks fine (or maybe the last character in that line is not as important?). That said -- I am still very happy with my empeg player. By the time the honeymoon phase wears off and I get annoyed with the view angle / placement, it will be time to get a new car. I will just take this into account in my car selection (or will new cars be coming with empegs by that time?).

-Doug
(Mk2-12G-Blue)

haha.. that rules. We're now choosing our cars based on how they'll fit an Empeg. Now THAT's product loyalty!

haha.. that rules. We're now choosing our cars based on how they'll fit an Empeg. Now THAT's product loyalty!

I already did. One of the things which made me choose my current car is that its stereo was a standard DIN size and wouldn't require an adapter kit, and I could install the Empeg right away (actually, I ended up ordering a wiring harness and master sheet from Crutchfield, but I wasn't thinking about that when I bought the car). Also, it was a green car to match the green faceplate on my Empeg. There were different "trim levels" of the car, and I made sure to choose the one with a DIN radio.

I was this close to getting a personalized license plate that said EMPEG. My wife wouldn't let me, though.

___________
Tony Fabris

As long as we're not choosing our wives based on Empeg compatibility, there's still hope.

I have a 2000 toyota 4runner and the view of the upper left corner is slightly obstructed. Toyota mounts the radio under the heater vents, cup holder, and heater controls. However, I do like the layout with one exception. I don't know if you have come across this yet but the cup holder opens up in front of the heater vents. I went to McDonalds and got a soda and put it in the cup holder. It was winter so the heater was cranked on high. After a while (of heating) I went to get the soda and the wax cup they use was so hot it left my fingerprints in the wax on the side of the cup and my fingers sore for an hour. It would probably work great for coffee though.

Anyway, the faceplate curve only really covers the left part for me too. There is good visibility of the center and right sides. Mine covers the first 4 characters completely. I happened to switch to a song by No Doubt called
"Just a Girl" but when I looked at it all I saw was
just "a Girl".

Alex Lear

I have to agree with you there.. it's not bad left-right, but it is decreased top/bottom... Again, it's not really bad enough to bother me personally, but I can see how it might bother someone else...

In my install I can't see the top upper left corner of the display, because of overhang of the faceplate, but its not that big of a deal to me. It's only like half a letters worth of loss anyway.

(O|||||O)

"Toyota mounts the radio under the heater vents, cup holder, and heater controls..."

This must have changed in 2000, becasue my 4runner's cup holders are between the seats( next to the brake handle). I am quite happy with it, even w/o the coffee warmer feature. It make a nice home for the empeg. :-)

-Doug
(Mk2-12G-Blue)

alear: I have the same thing. If anyone has ever had this running on their desk, they'd know exactly what you're talking about, unless they are less than 5' tall. There is plenty of space below the display before the fascia starts, if the VFD was 8mm lower...

I wonder, there must be some rejected designs for faceplates for the MK2...if, perhaps, there was enough interest, I wonder if limited runs of alternate faceplates could be made. I don't imagine it would be cheap, but the Type-A people would be happy.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
MK2 #141, green, 12GB

I was thinking if the VFD was mounted on the PCB only 2 millimeters lower it would be seen perfectly from the front still and would provide greater viewing from above. Viewing from lower-left would be decreased but the most important information is at the top-left anyway and this would only negetively effect people who have mounted their empeg to the roof inside their car.

Alex Lear

You know, if I hadn't read this thread, I never would have noticed, but paying some attention, I see I'm right on the edge. In normal seating, I can see all the pixels just fine. If I lean forward much, I start losing pixels fast. This is in my BMW Z3. If I still had my older Nissan 240SX, there would have been no problem at all because the stereo, despite being at knee level, is angled up to face you directly.

as long as we're not choosing our wives based on Empeg compatibility, there's still hope.

Hm, seeing where some of this board members' loyalty lays, I wonder if some wives are beginning to have second thoughts...

BTW, I actually did consider replacing my Renault Twingo I am very satisfied with because of difficult empeg installation (not done yet, BTW).

Cheers!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

The VFD mounting height is adjustable during manufacture - it depends where the sticky pads that hold the glass to the PCB are placed, as the glass itself has pins coming out of one side only. The manufacturers are instructed to seat the display low down, but we have seen variations in production units.

You may be able to help the problem slightly by removing the front plastic and *gently* (and I mean gently) pushing the glass down with a finger on both sides at the top - the position it's supposed to be is around 1.5-2mm clearance between the metal lip below the display and the glass itself as I remember.

Hugo

Mine covers the first 4 characters completely.

I am in much the same boat with my car -- I lose all of the first four and part of the next four letters of the the top line unless I lean down and peer more or less straight in.

As somebody in this thread mentioned (sorry, I didn't note who) to get an idea of what the empeg screen looks like in a lot of cars, put the empeg on your desk, 15" back from the edge and 10" to the right. Now slide your chair so you are right up against the desk, and look at the display.

Hugo mentioned that the vertical position of the display might be slightly adjustable. If I look absolutely perfectly straight into my display, the upper-leftmost pixel is less than one millimeter from the bottom of the curved fascia. Is this about right?

Arguing from my position of total ignorance of how design and production actually works, it looks like the problem could be solved easily just by changing the shape of the curve on top of the "wing" design of the left side of the fascia. Yes, I know, you'd be compromising the aerodynamic efficiency of the wing, but relatively few of us actually fly our empegs in any case.

tanstaafl.





"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Hmmm, this might not go over well with those of you who drive on the wrong side of the road ;-) but, this problem would appear to go away for the rest of us if the wing was just facing the other direction.

-Mike

If the display is mounted at the right height, there should be no problems from either side: as a reference, looking straight into my empeg the bottom left of the active area is basically at the plasticwork edge: the top left is 3 or 4mm clear. We altered the wing shape between original SLA prototype and actual plastic to open the wing shape out and to improve the angle (the plastic was also made thinner).

Hugo