The viewing angle was far more restricted on the original design, and I worked extremely hard with the designers to fix the problem just days before the moulding tool had to be signed off. After many CAD simulations, and physical testing of a new SLA model, I was completely satisfied with the resultant design.

Our A-Class demonstrator has the worst viewing angle of any car I've personally seen, with the stereo near the floor, and the driver in a high seating position. The display JUST clips the top leftmost character, and I'm rather tall so that's worst case.

I'm sorry your car has an even worse viewing angle, but when you talk about really bad design it does rather sound as if the blame should be shared with your car manufacturer!

Rob

Actually, I just checked and the stereo is just BELOW knee level in the A-Class. If it was an inch higher, or I was an inch shorter, or I put the seat back a couple of inches, then there would be no clipping at all.

We've seen Mk.2 empegs in a wide variety of vehicles and I haven't seen anything close to the problem you describe - what car have you got?

Rob

when you talk about really bad design it does rather sound as if the blame should be shared with your car manufacturer!

And you may want to consider the driving position, I guess
I suppose that the viewing angle is less restricted when you're further removed from the wheel

Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

NB: and where you drive, of course. I bet that the viewability problem is less critical in left hand drive countries . . .

Rob make sure you are sitting in the left front car seat when testing the viewing angle. Most of us are sitting in the left side seat in the U.S. Viewing is not as bad from the right side because the curved face "curves up".

Alex Lear

If the display is mounted at the right height, there should be no problems from either side: as a reference, looking straight into my empeg the bottom left of the active area is basically at the plasticwork edge: the top left is 3 or 4mm clear.

For further reference, on my unit, the left hand edge of the active part is almost perfectly equally spaced from the top and bottom edges of the fascia. This would appear to mean it's not quite as it is intended to be. It won't matter to me when I install it, though, because we sit on the right side of the car when driving, plus my car (for all its other faults) has the mount tilted upwards.

Richard.

Yes, I have checked from both seats. There is slightly more viewing restriction in left hand drive vehicles, but in the case of the A-Class this still only affects the upper half of the top left character. I just checked the height of the stereo - it's slightly below knee level. In my case I have the seat most of the way back, but my head is near the roof of the vehicle. A shorter person (mentioning no names) would have the seat further forward, but the reduced height compensates for this and the net viewing angle is much the same.

One thing that comes to mind (and perhaps you covered this - I haven't had time to catch up with all several hundred messages from the last week) is that your DIN bay has no incline. Practically every bay I've ever seen is inclined upwards, usually by between 10 and 20 degrees. That's why the empeg disk tray has a corresponding but opposite incline.

Rob

Rob, as you catch up with the messages, you'll notice that Hugo mentioned there's a possibility of some manufacturing variation in the mounting height of the VFD display. From what I've gleaned from the messages so far, I think the folks complaining may be the ones with the unlucky combination of a higher-than-usual VFD display and a car with a low and/or non-tilted mounting spot.

By the way, welcome back from holiday. We missed you. Did you have a good time off?

___________
Tony Fabris

looking straight into my empeg the bottom left of the active area is basically at the plasticwork edge: the top left is 3 or 4mm clear.

Hugo -- Mine is almost the exact opposite, i.e., my bottom left is 3 or 4mm clear, and my top left is basically at the plasticwork edge.

In a previoius post you alluded to being able to reposition the display vertically to some degree. Could you elaborate on the procedure, with caveats and warnings as to the pitfalls and what to do and not to do? I don't wish to take a chance of damaging my empeg, but on the other hand if a simple, relatively safe procedure can gain me half a line of viewable area I'd like to do it.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

I'll send an email over to our manufacturer (if Hugo hasn't already done so) to check up on their VFD alignment procedure. I know they're very unhappy with the way the component fits (as they don't like any human factor in assembly) but that's how the VFD is designed and we can't change it. Hopefully they'll come up with something to improve consistancy in positioning it.

The holiday was good thanks, although I'm already regretting the decision to go back to work on a Friday :-)

Rob

Could the fact that you guys drive from the right seat have anything to do with this discrepancy in visibility experienced?

Cheers!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

We also have left seats, so it's not hard to check this! I posted elsewhere in this thread to point out that left hand drive is slightly worse than right hand drive, but still not a big problem in the cars that we've tested.

Rob

Do you guys at empeg think a margin could be implimented on the first line? This would essentially leave spaces in the first few character spots on the top line then display the song title. Selectable, of course, so users with viewing problems could still see the whole title and people without the problem wouldn't lose valuable characters.

I'm not sure how hard this would be to program but it sounds like its easier than changing manufacturing techniques.

Alex Lear

Perhaps when the new UI comes out they will have it be selectable... right justify, left justify, center justify?

Tom

Reg #2845: Mark 1 #00173, Mark 2 #119

We also have left seats...



Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

Alex,

This has been asked before, and you may already have answered this / I may have missed your answer, but what car do you drive that gives you this problem?

Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

Henno, I have a 1995 Toyota 4Runner. I don't have a digital camera to take a picture of the empeg but here is a picture of the stock radio.



Note that the picture is taken from dash height and not driver height.

The radio faces straight out and doesn't lean up at all. I have a second video head unit in the lower part of the double DIN opening so I can't really lean the empeg back either. Plus the current mounting position will have to do because the 4Runner dash had to be cut to accomidate the empegs width. Thats a seperate thread here. The problem may come because SUV's position the driver in a more upright seating position. So if you mix that with an over 6 foot driver, low dash mount, no tilt mounting, and Murphy's law you get pixel obscurity.

Alex Lear

Well there's a couple things about that picture.

1) it's from dash height but it's very far forward. It looks like you took it from right next to the steering wheel.

2) that is incredibly low. I see no reason that you should blame empeg for the visibility. That's not very fair.

3) how short are your knees?

DiGNAN
13653

Well Alex, we're finally coming to grips with the problem.

Note Dignan's observation (next post):
how short are your knees?

And, like you say (above):
. . . mix that with an over 6 foot driver

We're at the bottom of the issue: you're the first empeg incompatible customer on this board, or is your car to blame?
No kidding: you're having real bad luck; best to blame Murphy

Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

I have adjusted my screen which was mounted a little high on the circuit board. However, the first 3-4 characters are still at least half covered. If you had read my post, I clearly said I do not have digital camera. The picture I got was from the internet. It was there to simply show the dash. The picture may have been taken slightly more forward than the driver would normally sit but it is way back from the steering wheel. You don't know what zoom setting it was on so for all we know it could have been taken from outside the back of the vehicle! The picture was not there to show viewing angle because it doesn't! I even tried to make a note about the picture so it wouldn't fool people.

The fact that I am 6'1" tall (which isn't that odd) shouldn't be an issue.

THE PROBLEM IS REAL!

I am tired of explaining this to people that have ideal installs in their vehicles. This doesn't concern you. If this was the case in your vehicle you wouldn't be saying things like "it's your cars fault" or "you took the picture too close." This is not a problem that I created for myself, other people in this thread have commented that they have seen or have the problem too. I really believe that there is more than a few people with this problem even if it is not as bad. I really don't think my car is to blame more than the empeg itself. Every other radio that has been in the vehicle (and every other car stereo on the market)can be clearly veiwed. It's time to stop blaming me or my vehicle and ask yourself, "Does the faceplate limit the viewing angle?" Once you answer that, you may begin to understand the problem for me.

I think the biggest problem with this thread is that people are willing to put up with obscured pixels rather than admit that in this case the empeg has a problem. This issue is not new. empeg knew the faceplate would limit viewing. I'm sure they didn't anticipate it being such a problem for some customers. I have put up with the problem so far but I think it's silly to do so. The empeg is a really great hardware/software product and shouldn't be limited by the physical case.

Even this is a problem that could be handled in software. I have suggested a reasonable fix to the problem by adding a (selectable) few character margin for the top line and I hope they don't consider it a waste of their time. At least one of their current customers is counting on it and some future customers will appreciate it.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my empeg as much as anyone and I enjoy the feedback from this BBS as long as you are really trying to see the frustration from my view too.

Alex Lear

Actually, I think we are thinking two different things. I was hoping to just move the title to the right (like a left margin not a top margin) a few characters worth even if it means chopping off a few characters on the end of the title. Menus and visualizations don't need changing just the two info screens with data on the top line.

Alex Lear

I was hoping to just move the title to the right (like a left margin not a top margin) a few characters worth even if it means chopping off a few characters on the end of the title.

This sounds like a very fast and good work-around to your problem. I like it. It could be controlled from Emplode, and written as a config.ini option.

It's a shame that it has to be done at all, though. For the record, I don't think anyone was saying your problem wasn't real, or that it was somehow your fault. I think what we were saying is that Empeg designed the unit with a pretty fair eye towards making it work for the majority of modern cars, and you were just unlucky that your car's dash mounts the radio flat instead of angled.

I'm glad to hear that you were able to improve the situation by tweaking the display mounting a bit. Do you have any notes or tips from that experience to help others in the same situation?

___________
Tony Fabris

> THE PROBLEM IS REAL!

I don't know, but if anyone took a second to connect it on their desks, they SHOULD be able to see what you are talking about if they did (unless they are so short, their eyes are less than a 6" above the desk, or their desk is so expansive, that the unit is more than 4' away.) Certainly they'd find out sooner than the time it takes to try and write helpful replies to you -- someone who seems to be an engineer.

I am maybe 10 degrees above the player at current view height, and two feet away, and the entire top half of the first character on the first line is cut off by the curve of the fascia, and 1/3 of the nextmost character.

No mystery there. You are clearly sane and have a legitimate design concern.

It is only when I am about 5 degrees above the unit, from the same distance, that NONE of the display area is blocked by the fascia.

Looking at the unit, this would be less of a problem in RHD vehicles, since the curvature of the fascia over the right-hand side is less intrusive.

And, big surprise, if I angle the unit as if I were sitting in a RHD vehicle, same distance, same angle, the top-leftmost character is only BARELY cut off by the fascia.

FWIW

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
MK2 #141, green, 12GB

We did rather better than put a unit on a desk (which has little correlation with a real car). We have comprehensive engineering diagrams from SolidWorks which show the exact viewing range to within a fraction of a degree, and those figures were considered adequate for the vast majority of vehicles.

Please don't make out that we didn't spend any time on this (as project manager for the new fascia I lost a LOT of sleep over just this issue) and please don't suggest that the people that worked on it aren't even engineers. I might be a mere electronics and computing graduate, but the people that designed and manufactured the plastic are top professionals in their field and put in a great deal of research.

I'm not sure what kind of "helpful" response you're expecting. I'm not saying that this client isn't telling the truth, I am saying that this problem occurs only in a fraction of vehicles. Those are vehicles in which the manufacturer has seen fit to position the stereo low down and not tilt the bay upwards. What can we do about this? With the panel, nothing - we already redesigned the CAD to improve the viewing angle as far as the designer was able to go without scrapping the whole style. Will we scrap a $40,000 tool and design project? No, because this is far from a universal problem and it makes no commercial sense for us to do so. Will we work around in software? Maybe, I don't manage the software development and I have no idea what would be involved in that.

Rob

... tweaking the display mounting a bit. Do you have any notes or tips from that experience to help others in the same situation?

Yes, please! If anything, my empeg position is worse than yours -- not as low, but further to the right, with absolutely no tilt to it, and further back towards the driver. I lose all of my first two or three letters, and the top half of the next four or five. Judging from what Hugo said here and here my display is mounted a full 3--4 millimeters higher than optimal.

Lowering my display would go a long ways towards inproving readability. I tried removing the fascia and gently pushing down on the display panel, but nothing moved nor could I see what might move, so I guess I didn't understand Hugo's instruction and I didn't want to press the issue. (pun intended.)

tanstaafl.



"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Edited by tanstaafl. on 4/9/00 11:21 AM.

When I say "display panel" I meant the VFD's glass. This is the big bit of glass with pins at the bottom of it. DO NOT do it with the power on, as there's 60v on this part (and on the display PSU).

You should be able to just get your fingers on both sides of the top edge and gently pull the display towards the bottom of the case. It won't move much, but you're trying to get the bottom edge of the glass around 1.5mm from the metal lip on the bottom of the front of the case.

Hugo

Rob, I know the display was professionally designed. It really does look great. It is helpful to know that you are aware of the problem, even if nothing gets done about it. Initially I set out to just tell you of the problem, not to get you to change your manufacturing design. I figured maybe no one there has a 4Runner and you may not even know there is a problem. The same goes with the Toyota dash needing to be cut to make the empeg fit. Maybe a future version will eliminate these problems and maybe it won't but at least you are aware of the specific problem.

As for a software fix, it would be nice. Not fixing a problem that the faceplate design created doesn't sound like something that empeg would do. However, like most owners, I would also like to see other software advances before this like VR.

I am still very impressed with my empeg and use it all the time.

Alex Lear

DO NOT do it with the power on, as there's 60v on this part (and on the display PSU).

As Mike will attest, I'm told.

___________
Tony Fabris

You should be able to just get your fingers on both sides of the top edge and gently pull the display towards the bottom of the case.

I tried that (twice, now) and the display doesn't move. I have pressed hard enough to cause mild discomfort on the balls of my fingertips, and am afraid to press harder than that.

I would guess the bottom edge of the glass is 3--5 mm above the metal lip on the bottom of the front of the case.

What holds that display glass in place? I remember reading somewhere something about sticky pads...

The VFD mounting height is adjustable during manufacture - it depends where the sticky pads that hold the glass to the PCB are placed, as the glass itself has pins coming out of one side only.

(boy, am I good, or what! :-)

...but I don't really understand the construction of it.

tanstaafl.





"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

This problem is also very real in my Volvo S40. Passengers
(on the right) can read the track info OK, but I can't see the
first couple of characters of the top line.

I think this problem could easily be solved in software. If the
track number and elapsed time would shift to the top line and
the rest one line down, I would be able to see everything.