#168660 - 01/07/2003 22:44
Shuffle UI
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'm not sure I know a good solution to this, but I think that the current Shuffle UI is a little clumsy.
If I'm in non-shuffle mode and I want to play a new playlist in shuffle mode, then I first have to turn on shuffle and then select the new playlist.
If I'm in shuffle mode and I want to play something in non-shuffle mode, then I've first got to turn off shuffle.
The former isn't such a big problem, but I often find myself forgetting and turning on shuffle afterwards, which means I always get to hear the first song first.
The latter is a bigger problem as I never remember to turn off shuffle mode and always have to turn off shuffle mode and then previous a bunch of times.
The problem with both of them, though, is, IMO, that toggling shuffle should occur in tandem with playlist selection.
Here's my suggestion. Normally selecting a new playlist should always turn off shuffle. Except that some playlists can be marked to always shuffle. Holding down the bottom button would provide a ``shuffle this playlist'' option in addition to the options currently provided. (In fact, this could be a toggle or submenu.)
Just my thoughts. Feel free to tear them apart.
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Bitt Faulk
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#168661 - 02/07/2003 03:17
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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I like that idea. I've been wanting it myself. I usually listen to my player with down-down-down, and I get fed up with listening to the first track every time. If it were to turn on shuffle for me, that'd be grand.
Now, the details: Which shuffle? Should it just use the shuffle that you last selected? Should emplode offer a choice of shuffles for that playlist? Should the extra submenu offer the complete list?
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-- roger
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#168662 - 02/07/2003 04:45
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I don't use shuffle often, but something like this would be cool for the times I do, I think. I wouldn't want to do away with being able to shuffle once a playlist is selected, but being able to turn shuffle on/ off as you select a playlist would really be helpful. This really only makes sense with the "replace" option on the "hold" menu, so you could put a sub-menu under that option. Of course, that could get a little tiresome: down-down-down(hold)-left-down(hold)-down.
Rather than a sub menu I suppose you could just go to whatever shuffle mode was last selected, but that means you'd have to have selected a shuffle mode the origional way at some point. I suppose you could just make a setting, but that's getting clumsy again.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#168663 - 02/07/2003 06:45
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Now, the details: Which shuffle? Should it just use the shuffle that you last selected? Should emplode offer a choice of shuffles for that playlist? Should the extra submenu offer the complete list? I intentionally avoided these issues. 
Honestly, there is, as you know, a fine line between offering options and making the interface clunky. Maybe there could be some way to define a particualr shuffle mode as the default. No reason that couldn't be set through emplode, although you could have a longpress ``set as default'' option under the Shuffle menu itself. And for those playlists you want always shuffled, you could conceiveably define which shuffle there, too.
If there's a user-defined default, then you wouldn't need to always show a submenu for which shuffle, a shortpress could mean to use the default, but a longpress could show a submenu. And I agree with Jeff that you probably wouldn't need this except with Replace. Then again, if it takes a longpress to get there, then there's probably no reason to not have it for the others.
Of course, now we're talking about what's best for most users, which brings us to the next logical step, which is configurable UI, where the users could change how the menus are configured, what defaults are, etc.
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Bitt Faulk
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#168664 - 02/07/2003 06:46
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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I'd be in favor of just having a "preferred" shuffle mode as a default (perhaps preset to Random) rather than using a submenu. I use the same shuffle mode most of the time, unless I've just added music.
-jk
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#168665 - 02/07/2003 08:55
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: wfaulk]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Which shuffle?
Which shuffle does the 'Always shuffle this playlist' option pick up? I would suggest that it should be the same, ie currently the last used shuffle mode. Someone has suggested having a selectable 'default' shuffle mode. That would be cool too.
(In effect this is what we really have at the moment. What we would really be changing is that the shuffle menu has an additional 'one-time' selection layer.)
I don't see the need to allow any/all of the shuffle options from this new feature though. I would hazard a guesstimate that 95%+ of all shuffled playlists (per player) are the same shuffle - ie the 'default' shuffle. Since this new feature is a convenience item, I believe that by ignoring that <5% that the selection is going to be that much easer for the other 95%+. I'd suggest simply adding replace(s) as an option to the down,down,long_down menu.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#168666 - 02/07/2003 09:04
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I don't see the need to allow any/all of the shuffle options from this new feature though. Ignoring the time spent to code it, there's potentially no downside to allowing that, though. A shortpress on replace(s) (to use your example) could use the default, while a longpress could pop up another submenu to select which shuffle. This is basically the same UI used for all the longpress menus, where the shortpress does the same thing as a longpress+shortpress.
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Bitt Faulk
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#168667 - 02/07/2003 09:05
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Which shuffle does the 'Always shuffle this playlist' option pick up? Currently, it always does an unbiased random shuffle. It should probably do something cleverer, but it'd have to be much cleverer, as this option only shuffles the children of the playlist where it's set, not any more distant descendants. Of course typically the children of the root playlist are other playlists, and don't have tags for play_count, last_played, year, duration, etc.
Peter
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#168668 - 02/07/2003 09:12
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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this option only shuffles the children of the playlist where it's set And since we're wishing....
It'd be nice if this were an interactive option, too. Maybe I'd want to listen to all my Zappa albums randomized, but not always.
This is a minor wish, though, as if I thought I might ever like to do that, I could set the option. If I wanted to play thme in order, it's fairly trivial to do so manually.
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Bitt Faulk
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#168669 - 02/07/2003 09:15
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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It should probably do something cleverer, but it'd have to be much cleverer, as this option only shuffles the children of the playlist where it's set Please don't get rid of this functionality. I depend on the "Aways Randomize" to only shuffle the top layer for the way I normally use the player.
Also I should point out for the sake of discussion (clearly you know this as the developer, but not everyone else may realize it) that the "Always Randomize" is not the same as a shuffle. It actually changes the running order of the initial list, so if you turn on shuffle and then turn it off again, you get the same "randomized" list you started with. Thus you can "shuffle" an "always random" playlist (which will shuffle tracks irregardless of which sub-playlist they are in).
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#168670 - 02/07/2003 09:23
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Since I've already started today: irregardless Not a word. And if it were, it'd be the opposite of what you mean.
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Bitt Faulk
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#168671 - 02/07/2003 09:37
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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MS Word says it's a word so it must be (because everything MS says is true  ).
That tiny fact aside, I shall now do my best to excise it from my vocabulary, as it is indeed a rather silly thing to say.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#168673 - 02/07/2003 10:24
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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They're annoyingly conciliatory.
I'm surprised they don't list ``kwyjibo''. It has about as much basis as ``irregardless''.
Edited by wfaulk (02/07/2003 10:26)
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Bitt Faulk
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#168674 - 02/07/2003 11:47
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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Yes, but kwyjibo hasn't been used in a Saturday Night Live sketch (albeit with a heavy faux Boston accent).
"Eahreahgahdless!"
I'd say it's about as legitimate as the pronunciation nuke-ular of nuclear; indicative of either real ignorance or feigned folksy pose
-Zeke
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WWFSMD?
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#168675 - 02/07/2003 12:10
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: Ezekiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Yes, but kwyjibo hasn't been used in a Saturday Night Live sketch I personally think a reference in a Simpsons episode carries more weight than a reference in an SNL sketch, irregardless of whether the word is in a dictionary or not.
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#168678 - 02/07/2003 13:13
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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Yes, but this was in a funny/memorable SNL sketch, which is far rarer than a good Simpsons episode.
-Z
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WWFSMD?
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#168679 - 02/07/2003 16:29
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Should emplode offer a choice of shuffles for that playlist?
Yes. If by that you mean a choice of default shuffles that can be over-ridden at the player.
But what would really make my life complete would be an additional option in the emplode shuffle menu. At present there are three checkboxes:
[ ] Always Randomize
[ ] Always Repeat
[ ] Ignore as child.
I would REALLY like a fourth option:
[ ] Never Randomize.
There are some playlists that can't or shouldn't be randomized -- like Audio Books, or Pink Floyd's DSOTM.
Any chance of this being added?
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#168680 - 03/07/2003 03:16
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
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tanstaafl, I like that idea. I always wanted the extra options you mention.
Personally, I would be very happy with both the solutions you and Roger mentioned, if I understood correctly. Precisely, this is what I would like:
[ ] Never Randomize.
[ ] Always Randomize 1
[ ] Always Randomize 2
[ ] Always Randomize 3
[ ] Always Repeat
[ ] Ignore as child.
where 1,2,3 are the various randomization methods available.
Also, the random status of a playlist could be modified when selecting the playlist like this:
DOWN->menu, select playlists-> DOWN-> playlist a-> DOWN-LONGPRESS-> submenu appears to insert/replace/enqueue -> select one of the option and then DOWN-LONGPRESS -> submenu2 appears to change the randomization status.
Edited by taym (03/07/2003 03:28)
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MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg
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#168681 - 03/07/2003 03:32
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Any chance of this being added?
Not if you want it to do what I think you want it to do.
The problem is this: the "random" option on a playlist is applied at selection time. When you select the playlist, and we're flattening it to produce the programme and initial running order, we randomise the immediate descendants of that playlist.
The "shuffle" options, on the other hand, are applied later -- directly to the running order. At this point, we really do have no idea where a track originally came from. This means that it's currently difficult to keep the tracks originally in a single playlist together in the right order.
We could do this by adding some sort of keep-with-next flag to the track, which would have to be applied at flattening time, based on the setting in the playlist.
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-- roger
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#168682 - 11/07/2003 07:31
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Holding down the bottom button would provide a ``shuffle this playlist'' option in addition to the options currently provided. If this gets implemented, can we also get an "Insert Sequential" option on that menu, too?
I'd love to be able to insert a sequential album (or playlist) into my big down-down-down random shuffle without having to turn off shuffle first.
That option would only need to be visible if (a) shuffle mode is already on, and, (b) you have selected a multiple-track playlist rather than a single track.
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#168683 - 11/07/2003 07:37
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Actually, that sort of thing is exactly what got me started on requesting this whole thing in the first place.
The reason I don't like your request (not that it shouldn't be implemented just because of my ``objection'') is that I'd rather it be easier to bookmark and go to a different unshuffled playlist rather than contaminate my shuffle. (Actually, from how I understand shuffle working, at least in 2.0, your request might be technically impossible without significant paradigm changes.)
An ancillary request would be a easier-to-get-to bookmarking function. This might be as little as moving it closer to the center.
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Bitt Faulk
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#168684 - 11/07/2003 08:05
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I'd rather it be easier to bookmark and go to a different unshuffled playlist rather than contaminate my shuffle Point taken. I don't have that problem because I envision a different use for it... I don't mind contaminating my shuffles.
An example of a way I would use an "Insert Sequential" feature is like this:
- I start a long road trip.
- I have Shuffle turned on (perhaps one of the weighted shuffles, perhaps not) and I do a down-down-down to get all my tunes going for the road trip.
- During the road trip, I decide to listen to one of my backlogged CarTalk episodes (I grab the streamed episodes from their web site each week and put them on the player in a special "CarTalk" folder which is Ignored-As-Child. Essentially, I'm timeshifting their episodes. Each episode is ten sequential tracks).
- Right now, to do this, I would have to turn off shuffle and play the cartalk episode. Then when the episode is done, turn on shuffle and do down-down-down again. I could just turn off shuffle and insert the episode, then shuffle again when I'm done, but that would run the risk of getting bits of the episode mixed in with my music unless it was on a weighted shuffle.
- With an "Insert Sequential" feature, I wouldn't have to turn shuffle on and off. I would simply leave my main shuffle playing, insert the CarTalk episode sequential, and forget about it. The CarTalk episode would play properly in order, then my shuffle would continue where it left off.
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#168685 - 11/07/2003 08:30
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I undertstand, and it makes perfect sense, it's just not the way I'd do it.
I'm sure I could come up with more to say, but basically my request and yours occupy the same space -- mine's a little logically tidier and yours is a little quicker. Six of one....
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Bitt Faulk
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#168686 - 11/07/2003 08:31
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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But isn't this exactly what bookmarking is for?
OK, so bookmarking is a little cumbersome - perhaps a couple of reprogrammed remote keys for press/hold to a bookmark save and a bookmark play.
-jk
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#168687 - 11/07/2003 08:39
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: jmwking]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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But isn't this exactly what bookmarking is for? Not exactly, no. I use bookmarking for the opposite situation: When I have a short drive in which I can only listen to part of a CarTalk episode.
For example, if I listen to part of a CarTalk episode on my way to work in the morning. I don't like to listen to CarTalk while I work. I find that I lose concentration on what they're saying if I leave it playing while I work. I prefer to listen to CarTalk episodes only while driving.
So I listen to part of the episiode, then save my current position as a bookmark before getting out of the car. Then I take the player in to work and shuffle some music for the day. Then at the end of the day I reload that bookmark.
But when I am on a long drive, I would like to have a large shuffled playlist and then insert a short section of sequential tracks without having to dig into too many multiple menus. And also it would be nice because it would just pick up my shuffle where it left off without me having to touch anything when the short section of sequential tracks was done.
The same thing could be said for playing a Pink Floyd album. You could insert Dark Side of the Moon into a larger shuffle if you liked.
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#168688 - 11/07/2003 08:43
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I use bookmarking for the opposite situation You can use it in both cases, though. Don't restrict yourself just because it's not the way you're used to doing it.
That being said, though, your way will always be faster, no matter how much they optimized the Shuffle UI.
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Bitt Faulk
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#168689 - 11/07/2003 08:58
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Because of my crazy method of using "always randomized" playlists I actually do exactly what you're trying to get at. This works since the player isn't ever really in a shuffled mode, therefore whenever I insert an album it comes out in the proper order. When it's finished I get returned to the previously shuffled list. Since you don’t use the player the way I do this doesn’t help much, but I can at least say I understand why you'd want the shuffling to work that way. It's very efficient and slick, and much less work than using bookmarks.
As Bitt said earlier though, I think there is probably a technical feasibility issue because of the way the software handles shuffled playlists.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#168690 - 16/07/2003 09:41
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 07/03/2002
Posts: 504
Loc: Southern California
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Off Topic:
Tony, when you capture the CarTalk stream, what program do you use and does it allow you to setup a schedule so you don't have to remember to record CarTalk everyday? I use a program called Super mp3 Recorder to capture a radio show too (Phil Hendrie), but I have to remember to record it or I'm screwed. It would be nice if I could set it up to record at a certain time everyday without me having to be around.
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Not a Whiner any more!!!
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#168691 - 16/07/2003 10:04
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: bodybag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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No, my software doesn't do scheduling. It's a rather intensive manual labor process, in fact. Perhaps that Super MP3 Recorder of yours will take command line parameters which will allow you to schedule it with the Windows scheduler software?
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#168692 - 22/08/2003 17:42
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Sorry to bring up an old topic, but something just ocurred to me:
On the insert sub-menu (Enque, Append, Replace) would anyone ever want these to Enque, Append, Replace shuffled? (The way it currently operates) It seems to me that if you're Enqueing tracks, you probably have a reason for listening to them soon, and that you probably want them in order. The same goes for Appending (though I don't know why you'd do this at all while listening to a random shuffle). So for those two at least it seems to me like a good solution is for "Enque" and "Append" to always insert non-shuffled, even if the player is in shuffled mode. This would fix Tony's problem, and even allow Bitt to enque the albums he wants to hear in order. (Though it doesn't solve the reverse problem of wanting to to insert a shuffled playlist when the player isn't in shuffle mode). However, if the "replace" command were to always insert as non-shuffled (since it's already a duplicate command it could be reasonable be altered to work this way) then Bitt could essentially leave the player in shuffled mode and use the sub-menu for times when he wants to replace with a non-shuffled list.
So to recap: what I think would be cool would be to make the insert sub-menu options always insert in order. I don't know how technically feasable this is, or if perhaps I'm missing a reason why someone would want to enque/ append in shuffled order, but it would be a simpler interface than adding another sub-menu or something else because it utilizes the current setup. Just an idea anyway.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#168693 - 23/08/2003 04:58
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: JeffS]
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journeyman
Registered: 15/09/1999
Posts: 91
Loc: Pasadena, California, USA
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In reply to:
On the insert sub-menu (Enque, Append, Replace) would anyone ever want these to Enque, Append, Replace shuffled?
Yes, I actually use that functionality. For instance, if I've shuffled a whole bunch of tracks from artists X, Y, and Z, and I then decide, "hey, I'd like to get a few tracks from artist Q into this mix as well", I don't want to re-listen to tracks I've already listened to. Shuffling the tracks in makes sense in this case. It also basically makes sense from a UI standpoint, in that you've got shuffle selected as a global option, so it should apply globally.
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Daniel M. Zimmerman
Mk.2 #060000058, 36GB
Mk.1 #00101, 10GB
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#168694 - 23/08/2003 05:45
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: dmz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Yes, I actually use that functionality. For instance, if I've shuffled a whole bunch of tracks from artists X, Y, and Z, and I then decide, "hey, I'd like to get a few tracks from artist Q into this mix as well", I don't want to re-listen to tracks I've already listened to. Oh, well there you go then. So you'll want to hear all of the tracks by Q shuffled before you hear any more tracks by X, Y, and Z. If so I stand corrected then, which I thought I might. There are so many creative uses for this player! It also basically makes sense from a UI standpoint, in that you've got shuffle selected as a global option, so it should apply globally. Not sure that I totally agree here, as enquing non-shuffled sounds intuitive to me because I wouldn't have a use for shuffled enquing the way you do. Shuffeling the sub-menu basically makes it useless for me because if I'm ever listening to a shuffled playlist I want to hear a mix of the songs in random order, and putting a large block of an artist into the mix is something I'd never want to do, unless I was wanting to hear a specific album and then return to my mix (which I often would like to do, but cannot). If I want to have artist Q mixed in, I'd have to enque or append and then re-shuffle (which admittedly gives you the songs you've already heard again). I could actually see an additional feature for "shuffle in", but that's a different subject. This whole thing could be made an option in emplode ("Shuffle Insert Sub-Menu") to handle different ways of using the player without further cluttering the runtime UI. Just a thought anyway.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#168695 - 23/08/2003 05:59
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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If I want to have artist Q mixed in, I'd have to enque or append and then re-shuffle (which admittedly gives you the songs you've already heard again). Does it? If so, that's a bug. Unshuffling and reshuffling in that situation is meant to do exactly what you're looking for: leave you part-way through the playlist with, coming up, all the Q songs and exactly those X, Y and Z songs you haven't heard yet -- all shuffled together.
Peter
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#168696 - 23/08/2003 06:25
Re: Shuffle UI
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Oh, well then I'm wrong.  I just assumed unshuffling and reshuffling would reshfulle the entire list (you can see I've only begun to user the shuffle feature recently). That's really cool! You guys have really have thought of everything. Still, if it does work that way then that makes the case for what I'm proposing even better, as you'd have the ability to either insert a playlist in order in the middle of your current shuffled list or shuffle the new playlist into the remaining tracks. The only thing you'd lose is the ability to insert/append a block of shuffled tunes, which admittedly some people might want (or actually, do want it seems).
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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