I'm not sure I know a good solution to this, but I think that the current Shuffle UI is a little clumsy.

If I'm in non-shuffle mode and I want to play a new playlist in shuffle mode, then I first have to turn on shuffle and then select the new playlist.

If I'm in shuffle mode and I want to play something in non-shuffle mode, then I've first got to turn off shuffle.

The former isn't such a big problem, but I often find myself forgetting and turning on shuffle afterwards, which means I always get to hear the first song first.

The latter is a bigger problem as I never remember to turn off shuffle mode and always have to turn off shuffle mode and then previous a bunch of times.

The problem with both of them, though, is, IMO, that toggling shuffle should occur in tandem with playlist selection.

Here's my suggestion. Normally selecting a new playlist should always turn off shuffle. Except that some playlists can be marked to always shuffle. Holding down the bottom button would provide a ``shuffle this playlist'' option in addition to the options currently provided. (In fact, this could be a toggle or submenu.)

Just my thoughts. Feel free to tear them apart.

I like that idea. I've been wanting it myself. I usually listen to my player with down-down-down, and I get fed up with listening to the first track every time. If it were to turn on shuffle for me, that'd be grand.

Now, the details: Which shuffle? Should it just use the shuffle that you last selected? Should emplode offer a choice of shuffles for that playlist? Should the extra submenu offer the complete list?

I don't use shuffle often, but something like this would be cool for the times I do, I think. I wouldn't want to do away with being able to shuffle once a playlist is selected, but being able to turn shuffle on/ off as you select a playlist would really be helpful. This really only makes sense with the "replace" option on the "hold" menu, so you could put a sub-menu under that option. Of course, that could get a little tiresome: down-down-down(hold)-left-down(hold)-down.

Rather than a sub menu I suppose you could just go to whatever shuffle mode was last selected, but that means you'd have to have selected a shuffle mode the origional way at some point. I suppose you could just make a setting, but that's getting clumsy again.

Now, the details: Which shuffle? Should it just use the shuffle that you last selected? Should emplode offer a choice of shuffles for that playlist? Should the extra submenu offer the complete list?

I intentionally avoided these issues.

Honestly, there is, as you know, a fine line between offering options and making the interface clunky. Maybe there could be some way to define a particualr shuffle mode as the default. No reason that couldn't be set through emplode, although you could have a longpress ``set as default'' option under the Shuffle menu itself. And for those playlists you want always shuffled, you could conceiveably define which shuffle there, too.

If there's a user-defined default, then you wouldn't need to always show a submenu for which shuffle, a shortpress could mean to use the default, but a longpress could show a submenu. And I agree with Jeff that you probably wouldn't need this except with Replace. Then again, if it takes a longpress to get there, then there's probably no reason to not have it for the others.

Of course, now we're talking about what's best for most users, which brings us to the next logical step, which is configurable UI, where the users could change how the menus are configured, what defaults are, etc.

I'd be in favor of just having a "preferred" shuffle mode as a default (perhaps preset to Random) rather than using a submenu. I use the same shuffle mode most of the time, unless I've just added music.

-jk

Which shuffle?

Which shuffle does the 'Always shuffle this playlist' option pick up? I would suggest that it should be the same, ie currently the last used shuffle mode. Someone has suggested having a selectable 'default' shuffle mode. That would be cool too.
(In effect this is what we really have at the moment. What we would really be changing is that the shuffle menu has an additional 'one-time' selection layer.)

I don't see the need to allow any/all of the shuffle options from this new feature though. I would hazard a guesstimate that 95%+ of all shuffled playlists (per player) are the same shuffle - ie the 'default' shuffle. Since this new feature is a convenience item, I believe that by ignoring that <5% that the selection is going to be that much easer for the other 95%+. I'd suggest simply adding replace(s) as an option to the down,down,long_down menu.

I don't see the need to allow any/all of the shuffle options from this new feature though.

Ignoring the time spent to code it, there's potentially no downside to allowing that, though. A shortpress on replace(s) (to use your example) could use the default, while a longpress could pop up another submenu to select which shuffle. This is basically the same UI used for all the longpress menus, where the shortpress does the same thing as a longpress+shortpress.

Which shuffle does the 'Always shuffle this playlist' option pick up?

Currently, it always does an unbiased random shuffle. It should probably do something cleverer, but it'd have to be much cleverer, as this option only shuffles the children of the playlist where it's set, not any more distant descendants. Of course typically the children of the root playlist are other playlists, and don't have tags for play_count, last_played, year, duration, etc.

Peter

this option only shuffles the children of the playlist where it's set

And since we're wishing....

It'd be nice if this were an interactive option, too. Maybe I'd want to listen to all my Zappa albums randomized, but not always.

This is a minor wish, though, as if I thought I might ever like to do that, I could set the option. If I wanted to play thme in order, it's fairly trivial to do so manually.

It should probably do something cleverer, but it'd have to be much cleverer, as this option only shuffles the children of the playlist where it's set

Please don't get rid of this functionality. I depend on the "Aways Randomize" to only shuffle the top layer for the way I normally use the player.

Also I should point out for the sake of discussion (clearly you know this as the developer, but not everyone else may realize it) that the "Always Randomize" is not the same as a shuffle. It actually changes the running order of the initial list, so if you turn on shuffle and then turn it off again, you get the same "randomized" list you started with. Thus you can "shuffle" an "always random" playlist (which will shuffle tracks irregardless of which sub-playlist they are in).

Since I've already started today:

irregardless

Not a word. And if it were, it'd be the opposite of what you mean.

MS Word says it's a word so it must be (because everything MS says is true ).

That tiny fact aside, I shall now do my best to excise it from my vocabulary, as it is indeed a rather silly thing to say.

irregardless

Not a word.

After reading this, I find this Webster's definition of irregardless ridiculously funny:

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=irregardless

It looks like they're talking about you, Bitt!

They're annoyingly conciliatory.

I'm surprised they don't list ``kwyjibo''. It has about as much basis as ``irregardless''.

Yes, but kwyjibo hasn't been used in a Saturday Night Live sketch (albeit with a heavy faux Boston accent).

"Eahreahgahdless!"

I'd say it's about as legitimate as the pronunciation nuke-ular of nuclear; indicative of either real ignorance or feigned folksy pose

-Zeke

Yes, but kwyjibo hasn't been used in a Saturday Night Live sketch

I personally think a reference in a Simpsons episode carries more weight than a reference in an SNL sketch, irregardless of whether the word is in a dictionary or not.

irregardless

I can't find "shuffle ui" but I'd expect it to do something like rebind the buttons and move the screen elements around. Does it?

Yes, but this was in a funny/memorable SNL sketch, which is far rarer than a good Simpsons episode.
-Z

Should emplode offer a choice of shuffles for that playlist?

Yes. If by that you mean a choice of default shuffles that can be over-ridden at the player.

But what would really make my life complete would be an additional option in the emplode shuffle menu. At present there are three checkboxes:

[ ] Always Randomize
[ ] Always Repeat
[ ] Ignore as child.

I would REALLY like a fourth option:

[ ] Never Randomize.

There are some playlists that can't or shouldn't be randomized -- like Audio Books, or Pink Floyd's DSOTM.

Any chance of this being added?

tanstaafl.

tanstaafl, I like that idea. I always wanted the extra options you mention.

Personally, I would be very happy with both the solutions you and Roger mentioned, if I understood correctly. Precisely, this is what I would like:


[ ] Never Randomize.
[ ] Always Randomize 1
[ ] Always Randomize 2
[ ] Always Randomize 3
[ ] Always Repeat
[ ] Ignore as child.

where 1,2,3 are the various randomization methods available.

Also, the random status of a playlist could be modified when selecting the playlist like this:

DOWN->menu, select playlists-> DOWN-> playlist a-> DOWN-LONGPRESS-> submenu appears to insert/replace/enqueue -> select one of the option and then DOWN-LONGPRESS -> submenu2 appears to change the randomization status.

Any chance of this being added?

Not if you want it to do what I think you want it to do.

The problem is this: the "random" option on a playlist is applied at selection time. When you select the playlist, and we're flattening it to produce the programme and initial running order, we randomise the immediate descendants of that playlist.

The "shuffle" options, on the other hand, are applied later -- directly to the running order. At this point, we really do have no idea where a track originally came from. This means that it's currently difficult to keep the tracks originally in a single playlist together in the right order.

We could do this by adding some sort of keep-with-next flag to the track, which would have to be applied at flattening time, based on the setting in the playlist.

Holding down the bottom button would provide a ``shuffle this playlist'' option in addition to the options currently provided.

If this gets implemented, can we also get an "Insert Sequential" option on that menu, too?

I'd love to be able to insert a sequential album (or playlist) into my big down-down-down random shuffle without having to turn off shuffle first.

That option would only need to be visible if (a) shuffle mode is already on, and, (b) you have selected a multiple-track playlist rather than a single track.

Actually, that sort of thing is exactly what got me started on requesting this whole thing in the first place.

The reason I don't like your request (not that it shouldn't be implemented just because of my ``objection'') is that I'd rather it be easier to bookmark and go to a different unshuffled playlist rather than contaminate my shuffle. (Actually, from how I understand shuffle working, at least in 2.0, your request might be technically impossible without significant paradigm changes.)

An ancillary request would be a easier-to-get-to bookmarking function. This might be as little as moving it closer to the center.

I'd rather it be easier to bookmark and go to a different unshuffled playlist rather than contaminate my shuffle

Point taken. I don't have that problem because I envision a different use for it... I don't mind contaminating my shuffles.

An example of a way I would use an "Insert Sequential" feature is like this:

- I start a long road trip.

- I have Shuffle turned on (perhaps one of the weighted shuffles, perhaps not) and I do a down-down-down to get all my tunes going for the road trip.

- During the road trip, I decide to listen to one of my backlogged CarTalk episodes (I grab the streamed episodes from their web site each week and put them on the player in a special "CarTalk" folder which is Ignored-As-Child. Essentially, I'm timeshifting their episodes. Each episode is ten sequential tracks).

- Right now, to do this, I would have to turn off shuffle and play the cartalk episode. Then when the episode is done, turn on shuffle and do down-down-down again. I could just turn off shuffle and insert the episode, then shuffle again when I'm done, but that would run the risk of getting bits of the episode mixed in with my music unless it was on a weighted shuffle.

- With an "Insert Sequential" feature, I wouldn't have to turn shuffle on and off. I would simply leave my main shuffle playing, insert the CarTalk episode sequential, and forget about it. The CarTalk episode would play properly in order, then my shuffle would continue where it left off.

I undertstand, and it makes perfect sense, it's just not the way I'd do it.

I'm sure I could come up with more to say, but basically my request and yours occupy the same space -- mine's a little logically tidier and yours is a little quicker. Six of one....

But isn't this exactly what bookmarking is for?

OK, so bookmarking is a little cumbersome - perhaps a couple of reprogrammed remote keys for press/hold to a bookmark save and a bookmark play.

-jk

But isn't this exactly what bookmarking is for?

Not exactly, no. I use bookmarking for the opposite situation: When I have a short drive in which I can only listen to part of a CarTalk episode.

For example, if I listen to part of a CarTalk episode on my way to work in the morning. I don't like to listen to CarTalk while I work. I find that I lose concentration on what they're saying if I leave it playing while I work. I prefer to listen to CarTalk episodes only while driving.

So I listen to part of the episiode, then save my current position as a bookmark before getting out of the car. Then I take the player in to work and shuffle some music for the day. Then at the end of the day I reload that bookmark.

But when I am on a long drive, I would like to have a large shuffled playlist and then insert a short section of sequential tracks without having to dig into too many multiple menus. And also it would be nice because it would just pick up my shuffle where it left off without me having to touch anything when the short section of sequential tracks was done.

The same thing could be said for playing a Pink Floyd album. You could insert Dark Side of the Moon into a larger shuffle if you liked.

I use bookmarking for the opposite situation

You can use it in both cases, though. Don't restrict yourself just because it's not the way you're used to doing it.

That being said, though, your way will always be faster, no matter how much they optimized the Shuffle UI.

Because of my crazy method of using "always randomized" playlists I actually do exactly what you're trying to get at. This works since the player isn't ever really in a shuffled mode, therefore whenever I insert an album it comes out in the proper order. When it's finished I get returned to the previously shuffled list. Since you don’t use the player the way I do this doesn’t help much, but I can at least say I understand why you'd want the shuffling to work that way. It's very efficient and slick, and much less work than using bookmarks.

As Bitt said earlier though, I think there is probably a technical feasibility issue because of the way the software handles shuffled playlists.