I want to love the Rio Karma, but I am afraid I can't. After using it for one day I am just plainly disappointed.

I have so many gripes, I just don't know where to start.

Build and Design:

First off, if you were to remove the bumpers from my Archos Recorder the player is THICKER than the Archos. Now we are talking about a 3 year old recorder that uses AA batteries places on top of a standard laptop hard drive. Even with the bumpers, then Archos is just SLIGHTLY thicker. However, in the height category, the Karma is about 1 inch shorter then the Archos which is nice. But, when it comes to playing, the player spends most of the time either in my bag or pocket, and the design is just NOT pocket friendly.

Next the build quality is so shoddy, it makes me think that they are made in Malaysia with no quality assurance. The power backlight button on mine is on an angle and the plastic molding around the volume buttons seems crummily put together.

You see, the problem here is that the ipod has the HUGE majority of the market share and to gain even a niche you will have to outdo the ipod significantly. Nothing in the poor design or build would make me choose this player over the ipod, and I am by no means an ipod lover. It is just that is the current standard, and it is quite a high standard.

Also, it seems so many things have been overlooked and I am using a beta product. For instance this is one that just boggles the mind. To plug the player into a new machine you have a few options:

1. bring the USB cable with you, load the drivers, load the software, and use the player on your machine with the EXTREMLY buggy RMM
2. plug the player into the dock, and then plug that into your network, and then open up the player in the web browser, then download your favorite zipping utility, a java VM from Sun, and then run that.

You see, the ipod, and Archos, along with so many other players just WORK! I can plug my Archos into any machine that is newer then windows 95 (Mac, PC, even many Linux boxes) and it just shows up as a hard drive. No drivers… Nothing! With the Karma I am unable to access it at work no matter what I do. I can’t install drivers on my machine, and I do not have permissions to install the Sun VM. Not only that, but who wants to bring the base everywhere you go (it is very heavy which is a good thing) and where is my Ethernet dongle (it seems like this player was made for such a thing). Why oh why is everything on the player zipped (Documentation, Software). What a pain in the ass. Also, I TYPED IN THE IP ADDRESS TO GET TO THE PLAYER IN MY WEB BROWSER. WHY DO I NEED TO KEEP TYPING IN THE IP ADDRESS OF THE PLAYER? Also, why the password? You would think you could at least disable this. I would think that you could just go to the IP address and a web page would open much like the way I can use my empeg or my router.

Also, it seems odd that I am unable to listen to music while I am transferring music. Considering you use the dock to listen to the player on your stereo, and if it is in the dock, then most likely you have it plugged into your network. And, it transferred about 7 songs, would play for a second, then continue transferring (under RMML) then erase the previously transferred songs? There are so many bugs with both RMM and RMML I don’t know where to start. RMML shows tracks on the player, that I can not access with the player. It constantly crashes, bugs out, etc.

Where are my install options when I install RMM. I would rather it not be installed in my Program Files folder, but instead my Music Software folder. Plus, why am I “not permitted” to drag and drop music to my device? COME ON MAN!

Interface:

The interface is so awkward for the most part. The screen is only partially used for so many options. It is a waste of beautiful screen real-estate. Just try to enter an IP address and tell me how many times you have to re-enter.

It seems like there are so many interface inconsistencies that it makes using the player very cumbersome. Sometime you press the wheel, sometimes you press the button, sometimes you push up and down, and sometimes you scroll up and down. Give me a break!

When I fast forward in the song using the wheel, why does the music stop playing? I would think that the buffer would contain all the music, but when I ff just a bit ahead in a song it stops and seems like it rebuffers or something like that. Try this: ff using the wheel through a few songs, and then rewind a few songs back. Many times the wheel just sops moving the cursor. Sometimes it speeds up, sometimes it slows down, and other times it just stops all together. Lots of times when I am in the UI and scrolling down the wheel just stops and I have to scroll up so it will continue down and vice-versa.

Lastly, there are so many little UI bugs it is painful. Go under Settings/Network/ why is DHCP at the top of the bubble? Center it. Why even use the bubbles at all? It makes a clumsy interface. Someone needs to look at the ipod or irive series of players (I have no experience with the Creative players)

I have yet to use all the functions, but so far it seems like this will not even come close to competing with the ipod.

I will continue to update this as I try out the new features, but as it stands unless I find some features that REALLY blow me out of the water, this one is going back to CircuitCity.

Next the build quality is so shoddy, it makes me think that they are made in Malaysia with no quality assurance. The power backlight button on mine is on an angle and the plastic molding around the volume buttons seems crummily put together.

Wow, even the beta units I saw (before the manufacturing was finalized) did not display these characteristics. I find this report very surprising. Do you have a digicam and can take photos of these flaws? I think the team would be very interested in seeing them. I don't think it's supposed to be that way, they went to great lengths and many hardware revisions to be sure that these things did not happen.

with the EXTREMLY buggy RMM

I've seen some reports of specific bugs, but can you please list the bugs you're talking about? Again, the team would like to hear them in hopes of correcting them. And please know that they ARE listening and are very interested in making it work well.

Why oh why is everything on the player zipped (Documentation, Software).

This has been discussed and I believe it will be corrected in the next firmware update.

WHY DO I NEED TO KEEP TYPING IN THE IP ADDRESS OF THE PLAYER?

Mike is here, he's listening, there's no need to shout at him.

Also, why the password?

Because if it's plugged into ethernet, anyone on the network can see it, get to it, and modify its contents. That's very important.

Also, it seems odd that I am unable to listen to music while I am transferring music.

That's odd. It used to be able to do this. Hmm, I just checked, you're right, it keeps going into that "Communicating" screen. In some cases you can press the stick and it will start playing again, but it depends on what's going on on the player.

RMML shows tracks on the player, that I can not access with the player.

I'm sure Mike would be very interested in working with you to see what caused this. That's not supposed to happen and the beta team did lots of different kinds of song loads to make sure stuff like this didn't happen.

Where are my install options when I install RMM.

This was discussed at length with the beta group. RMM is actually three separate programs, and there is a master installer that installs all three. The choice was made to make it simple and pester-free for the installation instead of prompting you for the installation location three times.

Plus, why am I “not permitted” to drag and drop music to my device? COME ON MAN!

I agree with this one, and it's a "known issue" that hopefully will be corrected in a future release. Note that you can drag and drop music onto RMM in some situations but not others. For instance, I can drag an MP3 file from Windows Explorer onto the Rio Karma icon and it will work. But if I try to drag a parent folder of MP3s onto the Rio Karma icon I get a strange unrelated error message. Both of these options work on RMML, it's only a problem in the main RMM.

When I fast forward in the song using the wheel, why does the music stop playing?

Hmmm. Which version of the software are you running? I don't see that problem. Of course, I'm running the internal software build that'll be available to you soon, so perhaps this is a bug that's been fixed.

Lots of times when I am in the UI and scrolling down the wheel just stops and I have to scroll up so it will continue down and vice-versa.

This sounds like one of the known bugs that's going to to be fixed in the upcoming firmware update.

unless I find some features that REALLY blow me out of the water

Okay, here's one (hopefully)...

Press the stick (using it like a button, not like a directional stick), and it will switch the playback screens. Do this until you reach the screen that shows the list of playing songs. It's the screen that resembles the empeg's "now and next" screen, if that helps.

Now, roll the wheel up and down to reach a different song. Then press on the wheel.

Now you have a menu of all the things you can do to this "spot" in the playlist. You can jump forward to this point in the playlist ("play"), you can insert and append songs from your library into the playlist this way, you can re-order the playlist (very fun, try it), etc.

You can then, if desired, SAVE this newly modified playlist as a real playlist on the player.

Here's another...

Menu, Equalizer, EQ mode, 5-band parametric. Then you can go into EQ setup and control all the parameters of the equalizer.

Anyway, those are my favorite features so far.

What I would like to know is which of these took place?

1) an unfinished product was decided to be released with the "We'll patch things along the way" motto that PC game makers are famous for

2) as you mentioned, clearly many bugs were discusses that have annoyed me considerably in the first day. Many of these bugs I consider showstoppers. I keep getting random behavior over and over again. Wait until your product has few enough bugs that it is presentable. In the first hour, YES FIRST HOUR, the player exhibited more random behavior along with RMM and RMML then almost any other software I have used. They were known about, but not fixed?

Press the stick (using it like a button, not like a directional stick), and it will switch the playback screens. Do this until you reach the screen that shows the list of playing songs. It's the screen that resembles the empeg's "now and next" screen, if that helps.

Now, roll the wheel up and down to reach a different song. Then press on the wheel.

Yeah, this is a nice feature, but it is not like the Archos doesn't have this (with Rockbox (open source firmware) though) and if I had to remember a longer button combination, then I would be playing Tekken… just another example of a haphazardly designed interface.

I must say it will be difficult to keep this device unless the Rio DJ and Equalizer REALLY shines. I would be wary of purchasing this unless you have a return guarantee like I have here at Circuit City in USA.

I just can’t believe the entire product is plastic too. My Archos is metal, ipod: metal digital camera: metal, laptop: metal, etc. A $400 plastic device that is pretty fragile just doesn’t sit well here. Moreover, the Nomad Zen is full metal along with the iriver and most other players.

Overall there is just too much random behavior with the device and the software. For others, I would wait at least a few months before looking at the Karma. I will keep it for a few weeks and see if there are any improvements.

I couldn’t get the clearest picture of the button, but you can see the gap at the front of it. Believe me it is much larger then it should be, and the button is off-center.

and if I had to remember a longer button combination, then I would be playing Tekken

LOL

Yeah, this is a nice feature, but it is not like the Archos doesn't have this (with Rockbox (open source firmware) though)

Please describe how this feature is done in Rockbox. How many buttons does it take to do this in Rockbox?

and if I had to remember a longer button combination, then I would be playing Tekken… just another example of a haphazardly designed interface.

Interfaces are always compromises. I think it's a pretty simple series of buttons. Roll the wheel and press it.

Yes, I agree, you've gotta be in the right screen before you can do that. But if you didn't have that, then you wouldn't be able to roll the wheel to scan through a song.

Tell us how you would have designed that interface? And please take into account all the other features that the same interface must support using a fixed number of hardware buttons. Remember, everything is a trade-off in any UI...

I couldn’t get the clearest picture of the button, but you can see the gap at the front of it. Believe me it is much larger then it should be, and the button is off-center.

A clearer picture would be nice, but the final-plastic units I've seen don't display this characteristic. (At least not to that great a degree. There's gotta be space around the button so it doesn't get stuck.) Like I said, they went through a lot of revisions to make sure the plastic wasn't gappy. This could potentially be an individual rare defect rather than a design flaw.

Please describe how this feature is done in Rockbox. How many buttons does it take to do this in Rockbox?

The way it is done in rockbox is here, although I still would have done it differently. This is just another way.

http://rockbox.haxx.se/mail/archive/rockbox-archive-2003-07/0068.shtml

I will think of a better way, and then I will describe it here.

-eric

Where are my install options when I install RMM.

This was discussed at length with the beta group. RMM is actually three separate programs, and there is a master installer that installs all three. The choice was made to make it simple and pester-free for the installation instead of prompting you for the installation location three times.

This is unacceptable to me for software to just assume something and install wherever it wants to. It is my computer, I should have control over things like this. If it was such a concern, do the normal "express" or "custom" install so many other programs do. I am also unsure why 3 different programs complicated this issue. I have installed plenty of software that was made up of several components, and it only asked me once where I wanted to install.

I do also have to agree with some of the concern this person has expressed over known bugs. It sadly sounds like release dates were more important then version 1.0 quality, and this will probably reflect badly on the product. Initial impressions are not a good thing to get wrong.

Question: How big was the beta group for this product? How many people?

I responded to the RMML parts on your post on riovolution ... (I'm trying to keep most of my public comments there rather than here)

Greetings!

Question about your power button. It is very difficult to see from the photo, but it might be that your unit had been dropped or otherwise had trouble. This is what my power button looks like from mine. The width of the "1" in the power symbol is roughly 1mm or slightly less.

I really wasn't going to dissect this but I suppose I should. I just don't know why you're so *angry* considering you can send the thing back if it doesn't do what you want. I put a year of my life into it, so I may come over a bit defensive, but I don't think it sucks.

I suppose I have to point out that this is all my opinion and I am not representing Rio with this post.

Dimensions

Horses for courses. It is an alternative form factor to the iPod, and I'd point out that we're the only ones with the guts to have tried that so far. Everyone else has wrapped a metal box around a Toshiba drive and produced what I would describe as a clone. Those guys will never improve on the iPod dimensions because Apple have that box has tight as it can get for the components that are inside. We have gone with something totally new, incorporating a decent sized battery, a different kind of drive, and a totally different form factor. Some people seem to like it.

Next the build quality is so shoddy, it makes me think that they are made in Malaysia with no quality assurance

They *are* made in Malaysia as you know. I have a fair idea of the level of QA that is undertaken and I wouldn't expect many problems to get past inspection (station inspection, line inspection (bare), line inspection (assembled), packout inspection, sampling, etc etc. I haven't seen your unit (in focus anyway) so I can't comment on it specifically. My *beta* units are fine though. I don't have a production unit yet as customers come first.

You see, the ipod, and Archos, along with so many other players just WORK!

You're talking about mass storage class. This is one that I really can't cover all over again. Using MSC to load content is SUCH A BAD IDEA in so many ways. Especially for a hard drive player. Even Apple acknowledge that - MSC is for file taxi only, to load content you have to use iTunes or MMJB.

In our case MSC is not an option because we use a journalled file system. Anyway I will skip this one, suffice to say there is some work in progress that will silence the critics on this topic.

RMML

I think this is a unique and innovative development for a portable player. Installing the JVM is a pain on Windows because of the matter of a teeny disagreement between Sun and MS - otherwise you would not have had to install a thing. Anyway, I'm getting an updated RMML onto the web site very soon.

Also, it seems odd that I am unable to listen to music while I am transferring music

Not ideal, but that's the nature of the USB chip we use which grabs the IDE bus all for itself (the same as iPod and most other PortalPlayer devices). Ethernet doesn't *need* to do this but not doing to raises a number of issues which could not be resolved in the 1.0 time frame. Since we already have about 2 million Rio products in circulation which stop playback during transfer we didn't anticipate too many complaints. Of course the car player, which was the inspiration for the Ethernet functionality in Karma, does the same thing. None of the competitors have Ethernet so I can't compare with them.

Where are my install options when I install RMM

Last minute change, unfortunately. The three apps that get installed are kept separate to make online updating easier, however the three MSI interfaces one after another annoyed the hell out of the beta team. The only fix possible in the remaining project time was to install silently. The proper (being worked on) fix is to wrap the whole thing up in a wizard which will guide you through the install process and also double up as the online update tool.

Just try to enter an IP address and tell me how many times you have to re-enter.

We tried out several text/numeric entry systems, none of which is perfect given the physical interface that is available. My favourite was a mobile phone style keypad which could be used for numerics, latin text and even katakana and hiragana. That was ruled out because the American market is apparantly not as used to mobile texting as Europe and Japan.

Even so, the numeric entry for IP dialogs couldn't be a lot easier. Scroll through a list of numerals with the wheel and press to select. What would you suggest instead?

It seems like there are so many interface inconsistencies that it makes using the player very cumbersome. Sometime you press the wheel, sometimes you press the button, sometimes you push up and down, and sometimes you scroll up and down. Give me a break!

I guess I suck at UI design, but I find it pretty easy to use. Where I think the confusion creeps in is that many functions can be driven either from the wheel or from the joystick. In some instances the wheel works best (e.g. lists, because they are inherently 1 dimensional) and in others the joystick is better (e.g. dialogs, as the controls form 1 dimension and the options for each control form a 2nd dimension). Maybe it would have been better to lock into one or the other. In fact you can throw away the wheel and still retain 99% of functionality.

When I fast forward in the song using the wheel, why does the music stop playing?

Because at the last minute a particular optimisation was thought to be a possible risk of instability. It was removed and put into a subsequent release - 1.1 - which was intended to be online by first customer shipment. Annoyingly it has missed by a couple of days. I hope it will be online Monday, then you'll notice UI responsiveness, Ethernet speed, scanning in tracks and other things all speed up significantly. Do you remember iPod 1.0?

Lastly, there are so many little UI bugs it is painful

Again, the general UI design would be my fault. But I like it, and it went through usability testing and a full beta programme. Little glitches (like a control not centered) will get ironed out. "Release early release often" might not fully apply as we're actually rather late - but the "often" bit is certainly planned.

but so far it seems like this will not even come close to competing with the ipod

Sorry to hear that. We worked very hard, and continue to do so with downloadable firmware updates already scheduled over the next several months.

Rob

Too right all other units are clones, attempting to copy the look at feel of the iPOD. The Karma has broken away from this trend and created and entirely new form factor, different docking, more features.

I can't wait to get mine! Now if could only find an online retailer with one in stock and ships internationally!! grrr...

Jai

Rob, I know you are probably running on 10 minutes of sleep at this point, but has there been any more thought about a bulk order for the European folks out there? Not that this matters to me personally, but there is a lot of interest out there...

Rob, I know you are probably running on 10 minutes of sleep at this point, but has there been any more thought about a bulk order for the European folks out there? Not that this matters to me personally, but there is a lot of interest out there...

I'm in Santa Clara later this week, and will raise it again then. Certain other negotiations that are going on right now may decrease the likelihood of this happening, and I'm also worried about warranty and customer care. If it happens at all I think it will be a one off for a hard core group of empeg owners, but that already sounds like an argument waiting to happen.

Rob

Go on please it would makes lots of us really happy especially those of us that have just come off a ship that carried big boxes of electronics from malaysia to USA and then could not find one in the shops when they got there.

And how about digging out a really old version of the 1.0betas and giving it to our complaining fiend so he can see how far things can move on.

None of the competitors have Ethernet so I can't compare with them.

Ouch! Rob, you are so cruel!

FWIW, my recent employment means that I *must* buy a 40Gb to amuse myself on the trolley/bus to work.

I look forward to mine....look forward to the various updates....and thanks for your response.