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#186987 - 26/10/2003 22:09 I returned mine yesterday. Here's why.
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
I went to Circuit City yesterday and returned my Karma for a refund. This is not a decision I arrived at quickly, and it's not one that's easy for me. For quite awhile, I have been wishing I could find a portable player with even a fraction of the functionality of the empeg, so when the Karma was announced, I was very interested. I followed the rumors and status updates pretty closely, and once I heard the first few reviews trickle in, I decided I wanted one. After a few days of use, I posted these comments, in which I cited a lot of problems and concerns about the device. Well, after a week of heavier use on a long vacation, I found more problems, and decided that the Karma's positives just don't outweigh its negatives given its rather high cost.

Now, "high cost" is a relative term, in that everyone here is in a slightly different financial situation. What's "worth it" to one person might not be "worth it" to someone else. Someone with a lot of disposable income may be more willing to keep a device with a lot of quirks and not the exact interface they want, whereas another person with less cash to throw around might want the *perfect* portable MP3 player for their $350 or so. I don't think this device is completely worthless, I just don't think that in its present form it's worth that much money.

So what aspects of the Karma am I disappointed in? Some of these will be repeats from my last post, but just for clarity, I'll go over them anyway. These factors are loosely in order of how much they bothered me.
- - -
Stability
This is the dealbreaker. The thing just reboots/locks up far too often, even for a 1st-gen device. Based on posts made here and on another BBS, it's clear the Karma development team is aware of a multitude of problems which are causing Karmas to reboot or even lock up completely. These have been known about for a week or two, and haven't been fixed yet. They may be fixed tomorrow, the next day, or the next week, but for right now, one cannot simply pick a playlist and expect that an hour or two later, that playlist will still be playing. I even ran into another problem where the player doesn't reboot, but the current song stops playing and it skips to the next track. I'm told this is also a known problem, and will also be fixed soon. But when you're listening to a 2 hour long PaulWay mix and you lose your place because the Karma decided to skip tracks on you, it's very bothersome.

I understand the Cambridge team was under immense pressure to make the Karma happen in time for the holidays, but it just amazes me that problems this pervasive can make it out of alpha testing, much less beta testing. I had spontaneous reboots within minutes of playing the device for the first time, and even with the most recent firmware possible, I still got them far too often.

Quirky menu navigation
The joystick and wheel combo is a very clean, compact, and efficient combination, but I just don't feel they're used right. There are numerous comments about it here and elsewhere, and some people seem to like it. Maybe it's the placement of the wheel that makes it less useful for me, maybe it's the speed or acceleration of the wheel's controls... But I just find it useless for navigation and selection unless it's the only option (where it is in a few places.) The mechanism for navigating multi-field screens such as the equalizer and some of the Options screens just doesn't seem intuitive.

I am not saying that I have any better ideas in mind, but it seems to me that the empeg car is much easier to work with, and it has pretty much the same structure (the empeg's buttons can be considered a 4-way joystick, and the empeg's knob and karma's wheel are both a rotary device that can be pressed.) The Karma even has extra buttons (the joystick press, the menu button, and separate vol+/vol- buttons.) Yet somehow, even after some practice, I couldn't get used to how the Karma's menus and screens operate. Others will disagree, but I don't think the Karma is easy to use at all.

Lack of a usable protective case
I paid $400 for this thing and got a black felt bag. Come on. Yeah, I can go buy a Gameboy Advance or similar case that may or may not fit, but how much could it have possibly cost to ship these things with a real case? Even the empeg car had a snug-fitting case from just about its inception.

The thing just lacks "polish"
I don't know of any other way to categorize some of my miscellaneous gripes, but they are important enough to me that I want to cite them here. For instance, unless I missed some magical button combination or setting, it takes an absurd amount of joystick, button, and knob clicks (14 if I count correctly) to switch from shuffled to unshuffled playback. That's just terrible.

Then there's the Plays counter, which operates the same as it does on the empeg, in that it increments after 5 seconds. It's not so noticable on the empeg, since nothing is really done with play counts yet unless you use custom shuffle modes. But on the Karma, the Rio DJ uses play counters for many of its modes, so they become important. Given this fact, why couldn't they implement a more sensible mechanism, where it gives you perhaps 1/3 or 1/2 of the duration of the track to decide whether you want to play or skip that track? With only 5 seconds to decide, the plays-based Rio DJ modes are useless to me. With a proper algorithm in place, I think they might be cool.

How about tweak functions? One can argue the Karma has a lot of other added playback features like Rio DJ modes that ensure you'll be hearing mostly what you want for a particular mood... But what if you go into your listening not knowing what "mood" you're in? The "tweak" functions are perfect for this scenario. You do a random shuffle, and then when something strikes your fancy, hit the proper tweak function for your mood. Why aren't they there? Someone who's never owned an empeg car might not notice this absence, but it's a serious deficiency for me.

- - -

Ultimately, I think that the Karma is a nice little device, with a lot of potential. If marketed well, I think it has an outside shot to be an iPod-killer. The battery life is outstanding, synchronization is lightning quick, and overall, it's got a lot more upside than the iPod. But too much of that upside is quickly forgotten when the song you're listening to suddenly stops as the device reboots.

This is just my opinion, but it looks to me like DNNA really screwed the pooch by trying to rush the Karma out before Christmas. If the Karma in its present state got into the hands of a reviewer from TechTV or a leading online review site, I'd be scared to see the results. I know a lot of things can be fixed in time, and maybe they will, but if you want to be an iPod-Killer, you better realize you're arriving late to the party, and better be able to match up from day one. Otherwise, nobody will take your product seriously, and will flock to the market leader with the funny ads on television.

As for my situation, I've decided that although I would really like to have a portable player right now, I want to make sure that I buy the right one. The Karma seems to have more potential than the current generation of iPods, but if it doesn't sell well, I don't know if that potential will be fully realized. If the stability is addressed in future firmware, new features are added, and some of the UI quirks are worked out, I can see myself buying another Karma in the future. Until then, I'll be on the sidelines for this one, and enjoying my empeg, which 3+ years later, is still the best MP3 player for me.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#186988 - 27/10/2003 12:17 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: tonyc]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
Thank you, that was a very thoughtful, well worded, and well-reasoned post.

I agree that the thing rebooting and track-deadlocking is a serious problem and it desperately needs to be corrected. You cited that as your primary problem with it, and I consider that a valid reason to return it.

I know I didn't pay money for the one I've got sitting here right now, but if I had, I would still hang onto it despite those bugs. Because I know those bugs will be fixed soon.

But that's just me, I can't expect everyone to share that optimism. The members of the general public don't know the Cambridge team personally like I do, and so aren't able to share my confidence that the bugs will be fixed. There is also the fact that people in general have little tolerance for products which have out-of-the-box bugs. So I completely understand that point of view and respect it.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#186989 - 27/10/2003 12:37 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: tfabris]
thinfourth2
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 13/04/2001
Posts: 1742
Loc: The land of the pale blue peop...
My concern is not wether empeg towers can fix the bugs but will the bean counters see the need to fix the bugs and develop the software
_________________________
P.Allison fixer of big engines Mk2+Mk2a signed by God / Hacked by the Lord Aberdeen Scotland

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#186990 - 27/10/2003 12:58 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: tfabris]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
But that's just me, I can't expect everyone to share that optimism. The members of the general public don't know the Cambridge team personally like I do, and so aren't able to share my confidence that the bugs will be fixed.
I can't possibly respond to this point better than Paul just did, so I won't try. His words express my sentiments exactly. It's not the good lads at Empeg Towers that I'm concerned about, it's the anonymous suits that make the budget decisions.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#186991 - 27/10/2003 13:26 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
I know I didn't pay money for the one I've got sitting here right now, but if I had, I would still hang onto it despite those bugs. Because I know those bugs will be fixed soon.

Soon as in Rio Central soon? Honestly, I do trust the empeg guys to get things fixed. But the fact that people at SonicBlue, and now DNNA are sitting on fixes to things like streaming to Dell branded Receivers is a bit worrisome. I'll let the Karma mature a bit, and see how DNNA does with supporting it. A rapid firmware release after launch is a good sign, I just hope it continues.

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#186992 - 27/10/2003 15:17 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: tonyc]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
In reply to:

It's not the good lads at Empeg Towers that I'm concerned about, it's the anonymous suits that make the budget decisions.



So true, I dread to think of how many times I've witnessed such things at work. We have completed 90% of the work on a cross platform version of our control system only to have it squashed at the last minute because they think it'll cost a fraction more to deploy than our existing ancient version which really needs updating.
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#186993 - 28/10/2003 04:38 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: tonyc]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
Nobody at Rio wears a suit, up to and including the president.

I ran firmware 1.14 continuously during my 1500 mile road trip and two 11 hour flights, with one reboot. Clearly one reboot is still not good enough so we continue working on this. Between four and six developers are working full time on nothing but Pearl stability.

I'd love to explain exactly where the stability issues are coming from but unfortunately I can't. Suffice to say I have no issue with anyone at Rio. Of course that doesn't help you in the least.

Rob

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#186994 - 28/10/2003 09:19 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: rob]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Nobody at Rio wears a suit, up to and including the president.
I'm not sure why I have to clarify this, but "suit" is more of a euphamism for whoever would be responsible for shitcanning the project at such a time that it wasn't deemed profitable. I know managers are human too, but you'll have to pardon me if I have an irrational fear of projects suddenly being abandoned -- I've just seen it happen too many times, in my own work, and with other products I've purchased.
I'd love to explain exactly where the stability issues are coming from but unfortunately I can't.
Just so we're clear, I wasn't fishing for you or anyone else to comment on these problems. I am sure you're not happy with them either, and I wasn't looking to beat you or anyone else up for them. My main reason for posting this was to put some closure on my initial comments about the Karma, and let anyone who might be thinking about buying one know that it's not really ready for prime time yet. But it sounds like it's getting there (at least from the stability point of view) and that's good. It sounds like 1.14 has really improved on a lot of the reboot problems. Hopefully the other stability problems (spontaneous pauses, complete player lockups, etc.) are also being addressed. Hopefully the other things I mentioned (UI problems, etc.) will be looked at once the player is rock solid. I will definitely be keeping my eyes peeled for future improvements, and hopefully will have good reason in the future to reconsider my stance on the Karma.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#186995 - 28/10/2003 09:32 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: tonyc]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I just want to say that when I bought the Karma I didn't even play it for a second before flashing the firmware to 1.11. I used it quite heavily the weekend I bought it and I did not have it crash once on me. I have FLAC, 320k CBR MP3s, and VBR MP3s loded and crossfade running and never had a problem.

I don't meant to hijack your thread or disqualify your experience. I just wanted to post that somewhere other than making a new thread. The only problem I see in 1.11 is that crossfade is not smooth and going from track to track takes a little too long. This is just my experience.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#186996 - 28/10/2003 09:42 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: robricc]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
I don't meant to hijack your thread or disqualify your experience.
No problem, I always welcome opposing points of view. That's what this BBS is all about. You're not the only one who's happy with the stability, and I'm not the only one who's unhappy with it. I just think it's good to get all the information out there so people can make informed decisions.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#186997 - 30/10/2003 23:14 Re: I returned mine yesterday. Here's why. [Re: tonyc]
Gazz
journeyman

Registered: 09/03/2001
Posts: 71
Loc: Alice Springs - Australia
Now what the hell am I going to do... buy one or not, oh my Gawd, I was hoping that "Empeg Geeks Group Buy" might start to happen after that 40 is released in about 2 weeks, (this would make my nice Christmas Present) you guy's are putting me off.. and I don't want to buy an Ipod as I love my Empeg too much, that really is a work of art, a Rembrant or something, who's thing is that, "Where Art and Technology meet"?,,, anyway, so I was hoping the Karma would be a work of the same artists, I don't even want it to listen to Music, I have mostly Learning/Training MP3's that vary from 10 minutes to 2-3 hours long, I would like to listen to while riding my bike or doing the gardening, but if it is going to re-boot, that would be the worst, Man, this is drivng me nuts and I haven't even got one yet. /Whine/

All I guess I want is stability, light weight and a long battery life, and the ability to slap it into my home ethernet hubs and conveniently copy on new material, I don't really care if she figures out what mood I am in.

Gazz.

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