#205919 - 20/02/2004 10:47
revised mainboard
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member
Registered: 17/05/2002
Posts: 148
Loc: Cape Town, South Africa
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Hi,
Forgive me if this has been discussed already. It's something that recently came to mind for me.
What are the possibilities of someone in the community designing and developing a revised mainboard for the empeg? There have been and still are threads going on about trying to perform this and that hack to the existing hardware to achieve whatever, but what about putting together a new board all together?
Something that'll slot straight into anyone's existing chassis, replacing their old board. Same connectors, screw holes, size, etc. And that will reuse the existing VFD.
And most importantly, something that's compatible with the existing software (or that can be used with a hijack patch).
Just thinking it'd be nice to revise the empeg in such a way that it incorporates some/all of the hardware wishes that have come up over the past few years.
Aragon
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#205920 - 20/02/2004 11:25
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Aragon]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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What are the possibilities of someone in the community designing and developing a revised mainboard for the empeg?
Slim. How much money have you got to spare?
_________________________
-- roger
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#205921 - 20/02/2004 11:46
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Aragon]
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old hand
Registered: 09/01/2002
Posts: 702
Loc: Tacoma,WA
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A more practical project if you really want to upgrade your mainboard is to look at getting a StrongARM CPU emulator like QEMU to work and then make a "virtual" empeg that actually runs on x86 systems. Then you could use a mini-itx board or something like that and run the player software on it. Then you could run "virtual" Empegs on standard x86 hardware- that would be way cool. Of course most of these virtual Empegs would probably be home-bound systems because even mini-itx is too big for a lot of dashes. I'm not sure what the empeg gods would think about someone emulating it either...
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#205922 - 20/02/2004 11:54
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Aragon]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Yes, this has been discussed before, and it just doesn't look feasible at any reasonable cost.
I'm thinking of a different approach. Most of us are VERY happy with the audio performance, but wishful for more memory (and therefore more software features) and perhaps a faster interface (100BaseT or USB2). This is all doable, with a daughterboard (with memory, CPU, and 100BaseT) that connects to the existing mainboard via the IDE header or an internal ethernet/USB cable...
Edited by mlord (20/02/2004 11:55)
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#205923 - 21/02/2004 12:57
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Roger]
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member
Registered: 17/05/2002
Posts: 148
Loc: Cape Town, South Africa
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Slim. How much money have you got to spare?
Yea, the end product would have to be reasonably priced. Just speaking for myself, I think I'd be prepared to spend upto $600 on a new mainboard.
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#205924 - 21/02/2004 13:14
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: mlord]
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member
Registered: 17/05/2002
Posts: 148
Loc: Cape Town, South Africa
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Most of us are VERY happy with the audio performance Yes, definately. Me too.
but wishful for more memory (and therefore more software features) and perhaps a faster interface (100BaseT or USB2). This is all doable, with a daughterboard (with memory, CPU, and 100BaseT) that connects to the existing mainboard via the IDE header or an internal ethernet/USB cable... Wouldn't the current speed of the IDE (and ISA) bus be a major limiting factor to this approach's success?
What are the cost limiting factors to building a new board? If most of the existing hardware and design are reused I was thinking it could be done without breaking the bank.
My biggest wants are also more CPU power, more memory, and faster drive access. A nice plus might be onboard digital out ala eutronix's design. For me 10BaseT is fast enough provided it operates at a good 10mbps - right now I don't see average network speeds higher than about 3mbps (due to IDE throughput I think).
Aragon
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#205925 - 21/02/2004 13:49
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Aragon]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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I say if we're talking about doing a new mainboard, there's no reason not to have a color screen. 
This would completely remove the need for color lenses. Simply pick the color scheme you want to display.
_________________________
Dave
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#205926 - 21/02/2004 16:13
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Aragon]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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right now I don't see average network speeds higher than about 3mbps (due to IDE throughput I think).
You should certainly get better throughput than that. I have been getting around 8mbps with newer versions of JEmplode which can upload music via ftp with hijack.
-Mike
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#205927 - 22/02/2004 17:46
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Aragon]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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What are the cost limiting factors to building a new board?
The fact that you have to order them in quantities of at least one thousand pieces I think. That could be a problem since there are only +/- 4000 empegs in total out there, and a lot of owners own two or three of them.
Don't get me wrong, I would also LOVE to see someone taking on this challenge! A new motherboard with all the newest features : gigabit ethernet, firewire/Usb2, digital out, colour LCD, lots of memory, ...
*mmmmmmm*
/me dreams away...
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#205928 - 22/02/2004 20:28
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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If if if...
If all that is going to happen, the new unit should be designed for remote mounting.
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Glenn
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#205929 - 23/02/2004 02:40
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: BartDG]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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A new motherboard with all the newest features : gigabit ethernet...
Could we all agree once and for all to drop the constant, obligatory refernces to GigE?
If anyone can show me a combination of hardware that could fit into the empeg (redesigned or not) that could actually utilize GigE to capacity (as well as show any kind of reasonable NEED for it) I'll PayPal you $5.
I'm sorry if I'm being an ass, but it's getting a bit sad. If you could (somehow) cram drives capable of a sustained 80MB / second into the empeg, you still would only be utilizing about 640 megabit.
Not to mention, do you really need to be able to change out all the music on a twin 80gb empeg in 32 minutes?
I DO however agree on everything else: Color LCD, more RAM, video out, Firewire/USB2, etc.
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Dave
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#205930 - 23/02/2004 05:33
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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You're not being an ass, I can even see your point somewhat. But I've found with my Karma that I started using USB2 more for file transfers just because the 100base-T ethernet isn't as fast. Gigabit ethernet is then the next logical step, even if most (if not all) hd's won't be able to satisfy it's bandwidth hunger. But I'd rather have my harddisk be the weakest link in the chain than my NIC.
For some reason I also prefer ethernet over USB2, so I'm not all that happy that I now have to use USB2 to get "full speed" with my Karma. But I do, because speed is a factor that weighs in heavy for me. I want to wait as little as possible for file transfers to finish.
An no, we don't NEED to be able to fill 80gig in 30 minutes, but it sure is NICE if you can. Last time I completely re-uploaded all my files to my Empeg it took me two days, which is a bit too much IMHO.
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#205931 - 23/02/2004 07:13
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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If anyone can show me a combination of hardware that could fit into the empeg (redesigned or not) that could actually utilize GigE to capacity (as well as show any kind of reasonable NEED for it) I'll PayPal you $5. 7200rpm 2.5in drive with head rate over 500Mbits/s. Two of, that's GigE saturated. (But not by much -- it's probably not worth stretching to 10GigE.)
I'm sorry if I'm being an ass, but it's getting a bit sad. If you could (somehow) cram drives capable of a sustained 80MB / second into the empeg, you still would only be utilizing about 640 megabit. Right -- that's much faster than the next slower Ethernet, 100Mbit. Similarly, you'd want Firewire800, not 400.
Not to mention, do you really need to be able to change out all the music on a twin 80gb empeg in 32 minutes? Are you claiming that 32 minutes is not a perceptible delay? If I tell my PC to do something and it takes 32 minutes, I'd hope for it to be made faster.
Peter
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#205932 - 23/02/2004 11:03
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: peter]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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You forgot to include your paypal address. 
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
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#205933 - 23/02/2004 13:12
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: webroach]
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old hand
Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
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do you really need to be able to change out all the music on a twin 80gb empeg in 32 minutes?
IMHO, once you've rationalized having 160 GB of music in your car, everything else is just details. So, yes I need it. Just like I need UV illuminated buttons, 64 MB of ram, and digital out. What else you got?
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#205934 - 23/02/2004 13:16
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Mach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#205935 - 23/02/2004 13:42
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: Aragon]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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A ntsc/pal video output would be quite nice.
_________________________
~ John
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#205936 - 23/02/2004 14:28
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: peter]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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I'll happily concede, but can we agree that the more honest specification would be the "max interface transfer rate" of 100MB/sec in Ultra DMA mode-5?
And remember folks, I didn't say nobody would WANT GigE. My point was that, unless you're changing out ALL the music on the empeg REGULARLY, I don't see where GigE will be a huge improvement over Firewire.
Peter, feel free to PM me a PayPal address.
_________________________
Dave
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#205937 - 23/02/2004 14:33
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Peter, feel free to PM me a PayPal address. Hmm, is this the first record of a monetary bribe offered to the Cambridge crew? I seem to remember most or all past bribes involving beer and/or curry...
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#205938 - 23/02/2004 14:41
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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No, it's me keeping my word, in a way. I disagree that anyone has truly shown a need for Gig-E, but, since a lot of people are translating the word "need" as "I want it so therefore I need it", I figure it's easier to pay up.
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Dave
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#205939 - 23/02/2004 14:48
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: webroach]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2001
Posts: 579
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I disagree I "NEED" a faster way to upload tunes 24 Hours plus is too long to wait.
SO "I WANT MY GIG-E"
As for a Epia or ITX or P4 ITX (Google them you will see) some of them would fit in a DIn sized dash in fact a few companies make a Din sized carpc (Google again) I would think that cheap onboard sound would suck compaired to the EMpeg but even that can be fixed with a USB sound card.
Give me a 6.5 or bigger color touch screen Good sound 30 gigs or more, Good sound, front, rear and Sub out and the ability to add other software with the ease to use of an Empeg and you will get my 2000 bucks or better.
ANd I want Tux in the back ground
P.S. I had a Lilliput touch screen and a EPIA m5000 itx board the sound did suck and running Media engine on XP home switching songs was annyoing aprox 2 seconds from switch to play, bugged the hell out of me.
Edited by belezeebub (23/02/2004 14:51)
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#205940 - 23/02/2004 15:06
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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I'll happily concede, but can we agree that the more honest specification would be the "max interface transfer rate" of 100MB/sec in Ultra DMA mode-5? Well, that's 100Mbytes/s, don't forget, or 800Mbits/s. You would have to have each drive on a separate ATA100 channel to saturate the 500Mbits/s head rate on both drives at once, but the Mark 1 had two IDE channels, and while we're dreaming let's dream in high bandwidth. You can keep the five-spot, or give it to the EFF or the World Wildlife Fund or something.
500Mbits/s is a hell of a lot off a 2.5in drive, of course; I've got a 15K U160 SCSI drive here that's only 640Mbits/s head rate. And that theoretical 80Mbytes/s ends up as about 45Mbytes/s through the filesystem, so perhaps we can't quite saturate GigE onto our two drives. We can still go an awful lot faster than 100Mbit allows for, though...
Peter
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#205941 - 23/02/2004 21:25
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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The improvement of GigE over firewire/USB is in the open protocols vs. closed protocols. Anything over 200mb/sec will saturate any laptop drive sold today, so it's more a case of platform support. TCP/IP is universal; custom firewire/usb are not.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (23/02/2004 21:27)
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#205942 - 24/02/2004 00:19
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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The improvement of GigE over firewire/USB is in the open protocols vs. closed protocols.
Mark, YOU win! THAT is a damn good reason for going to Gig-E!
And honestly one I hadn't thought of.
Where does the fiver get sent to?
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Dave
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#205943 - 24/02/2004 03:43
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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500Mbits/s is a hell of a lot off a 2.5in drive, of course
Ner, ner. I have actually got a Hitachi 7K60 in my laptop. And it does indeed go pretty quickly. I've not actually measured the throughput, 'cos I've not installed Linux on it yet, though.
_________________________
-- roger
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#205944 - 25/02/2004 15:45
Re: revised mainboard
[Re: belezeebub]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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As for a Epia or ITX or P4 ITX (Google them you will see) some of them would fit in a DIn sized dash in fact a few companies make a Din sized carpc (Google again) I would think that cheap onboard sound would suck compaired to the EMpeg but even that can be fixed with a USB sound card.
P.S. I had a Lilliput touch screen and a EPIA m5000 itx board the sound did suck and running Media engine on XP home switching songs was annyoing aprox 2 seconds from switch to play, bugged the hell out of me.
upgrade your mobo, EPIA M10000 is NICE!, media car runs flawlessly, and the onboard sound is fairly nice (although I still went with M-audio usb card)
_________________________
Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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