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#233982 - 19/09/2004 20:50 Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
I'm sure there's a dry solder joint somewhere on my display board, or perhaps a broken trace, but I'm having trouble finding it.

My symptoms are as follows:

- Sometimes the button lights will be on, sometimes they will be off.

- Putting pressure on the face makes the button lights blink on and off. Interestingly, it's just about anywhere on the face. At either end, in the middle, whatever.

- Sometimes the knob LEDs will be on, but the button LEDs will be off. This I find odd, because the knob LEDs get their on/off signal indicator from one of the legs of the button LEDs. So I guess that means the button LEDs aren't getting enough juice to light up, but they are getting enough juice so that the signal to activate the knob LEDs is working.

- When the button LEDs are malfunctioning, if I go into the dimmer menu on the player, it does not affect the brightness of the VFD display. Only after I press on the face to make the buttons light up, does the dimmer menu actually cause the display to change brightness.

I've tried to hit various solder joints on the display board with a soldering iron, places like surface-mount chips that looked like they were kind of dry. But the problem came back the next day.

I've checked and resoldered all of button LED connections, and the resistor pack. They all seem to be operating at spec. My hunch is that the problem is upstream of the resistor pack.

Any ideas where the dry solder joint or broken trace might be? Note: difficulty level= This is not a standard Mk2/2a display board, it was one of their early beta boards from back stock when they swapped me for a display that had the half-missing-picture problem. I have noticed its physical layout is different from the production boards, but most of the components are more or less the same.
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Tony Fabris

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#233983 - 19/09/2004 22:01 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: tfabris]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Hmm... That last comment about the dimmer setting (I assume you mean the standard dimmer, not the LED brightness) is rather curious. This implies (to me) that the fault is also causing problems with the standard VFD. Look along the power lines feeding the resistor pack.

Either that, or the fault may be with the display board itself, and not the LED circuitry. If there were a bad capacitor (or other component) you would see symptoms in the LEDs and VFD, but they would not be the cause.

In any case, I strongly suspect a power lead. On Brian's original button page, the knob is connected to the +5 of the IR board and ground near the knob. Different power leads... And your symptoms seem to support this.
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#233984 - 19/09/2004 22:17 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: pgrzelak]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, it's difficult to trace where the power lead goes, the one upstream of the resistor pack. It's a 4-layer PCB and the trace disappears into it... I'll try a bit harder...
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Tony Fabris

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#233985 - 19/09/2004 22:33 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
Also, I forgot to say that another thing which indicates a problem with the button LED power supply trace is: When they fail, all four buttons fail equally. Sometimes as they flicker on and off, they are dim, and in that case they are all equally dim.

Player dismantled, soldering iron heated, multimeter in hand... wish me luck...
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Tony Fabris

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#233986 - 19/09/2004 23:19 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
I've traced where both the grounds for and the power supply for the button LEDs goes. Both sets of connections go to a bunch of different places on the board, and I can't find anything wrong at any of those places. The power seems to come from one of the pins on the display cable, but that pin, the display cable, and the pins on the motherboard all seem fine. Stumped...
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Tony Fabris

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#233987 - 19/09/2004 23:56 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
Hm. After dismantling, and heating almost every solder point on the display board and even the solder points on the display-cable header on the mainboard, then reassembling, it seems to be working correclty. Of course, that's the same thing that happened the last time I did this... it worked for a day and then started to fail again.... We'll see if this holds up...
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Tony Fabris

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#233988 - 20/09/2004 01:47 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: tfabris]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Quote:
Sometimes the knob LEDs will be on, but the button LEDs will be off. This I find odd, because the knob LEDs get their on/off signal indicator from one of the legs of the button LEDs. So I guess that means the button LEDs aren't getting enough juice to light up, but they are getting enough juice so that the signal to activate the knob LEDs is working.

The signal only has to be slightly over 0.7V to fire up the transistor that feeds the knob LEDs, but will have to be over 2V to light the button LEDs...
Hmm come to think of it, IIRC, the LEDs may have constant 5V and switched ground, with the transistor being PNP, meaning the signal would have to be below 4.3V for the knob LEDs to light yet below 3V before the buttons lit.

Quote:
When the button LEDs are malfunctioning, if I go into the dimmer menu on the player, it does not affect the brightness of the VFD display. Only after I press on the face to make the buttons light up, does the dimmer menu actually cause the display to change brightness.


When this happens does pressing the face immediately make the dimmer change to its new setting, or does it wait until you make a subsequent change?

If the latter, this might tie in with a power/grounding problem on the PIC. The PIC controls the display brightness. button inputs, and the LEDs. A bad Vss (that's what we call 'ground' on CMOS logic chips) could result in the PIC not being able to drive the button LED output low enough to turn the button LEDs on. It could also screw up communications between the PIC and the CPU on the mainboard such that the PIC didn't correctly interpret dimmer commands.

The PIC should have a power decoupling capacitor very close by that should prevent noise issues on the power supply from interfering with the PICs operation. It is possible that there is a problem with that capacitor. The capacitor will be connected directly across Vdd and Vss. You should be able to locate it easily on the board as it should be a small chip capacitor (like an SMD resistor only less 'flat', unmarked and typically gray/pale brown/mauve in color) and it will be as near to the PIC as physically possible.

Also check the Vss connection. I'm not sure whether the display board has a separate power 'ground' for the VFD or whether the VFD and logic currents share Vss. If the former you may find that the PIC's Vss is a pcb trace. If the latter then it may well be connected to a ground layer within the pcb if the pcb is 4 layer, or a trace if it is 2 layer. ( I can't remember which it is. ) Anyway, look for a dodgy connection there.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#233989 - 20/09/2004 03:18 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: genixia]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
the signal would have to be below 4.3V for the knob LEDs to light yet below 3V before the buttons lit.

So you're saying the observed behavior is the opposite of what we would expect. Wow, very puzzling indeed.

Quote:
When this happens does pressing the face immediately make the dimmer change to its new setting, or does it wait until you make a subsequent change?

When (if? I hope it's if...) the problem happens again, I will verify this, but I seem to recall that it waited until I made a subsequent change for the new dimmer setting to take.

Quote:
and it will be as near to the PIC as physically possible.

So how do I identify the PIC?

Quote:
If the latter then it may well be connected to a ground layer within the pcb if the pcb is 4 layer, or a trace if it is 2 layer. ( I can't remember which it is. ) Anyway, look for a dodgy connection there.

It's a four-layer board, so if I have to dig into it again, I'll refer back to this post so I'll know where to look.

Thanks very much for this information, this is very helpful. I'm crossing my fingers and praying that my last round of random fiddling took care of it, but if it comes back, I'll have someplace to start looking.
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Tony Fabris

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#233990 - 20/09/2004 09:01 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: tfabris]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Quote:
Quote:
and it will be as near to the PIC as physically possible.

So how do I identify the PIC?



The PIC will have PIC as part of it's part name. However if memory serves me correctly it will have a white sticker with the firmware version on it (just like the boot flash has 1.02 or 1.03 or something on the main card). Should be pretty obvious.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#233991 - 20/09/2004 10:57 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: tfabris]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Quote:
So you're saying the observed behavior is the opposite of what we would expect. Wow, very puzzling indeed.


Yeah, it's actually slightly worse than I stated - 2V is a typical forward bias ('turn on') voltage used when calculating for a regular (redyellow/green) LED. The new 'exotic' LEDs (blue, purple, UV, white) have a higher bias voltage. White is typically 3V. That means that the signal would have to get below 2V before the button LEDs turned on, whilst the transistor only needs it to be below 4.3V.

Both the LEDs and transistor work on the same principle with regards to turning on - a doped semiconductor junction that allows current to flow one way once a bias voltage is reached. The bias voltage is dependant on the semiconductor material used. In the case of the transistor it is nearly always silicon, and that gives a Vf of 0.7V. LEDs use different chemical compounds to achieve different colours, and each of these compounds will have a different bias voltage.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#233992 - 20/09/2004 12:49 Re: Problem with lit buttons working only intermittently [Re: genixia]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
The bias voltage is dependant on the semiconductor material used.


More directly, the bias voltage required by the semiconductor material is in direct proportion to the frequency of the light you want out of it.
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-- roger

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