#239249 - 27/10/2004 20:22
If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
|
addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
|
I've seen this sentiment expressed by a number of Bush supporters on this board and elsewhere. I encourage you to read the article below. When you read this please remember that Bush is responsible for the people he has put in positions of influence. Regardless of his specific knowledge, he is responsible for the actions of his administration. http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/03/10/osp_moveon/print.html
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239250 - 28/10/2004 18:00
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Dylan]
|
addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
|
I guess everyone is bored with this topic. I posted it because I've seen a couple of people on this board claim that Bush (and by extension, his administration) wasn't responsible for the bad conclusions made from questionable intelligence.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239252 - 28/10/2004 18:21
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Dylan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
I guess everyone is bored with this topic.
I wish the reason we have topics like this would go away. Maybe like you, though, I feel nearly compelled to slap stuff like this up here -- and I subject some of my Marine and ex-Marine relations to it as well (the likely Bush voters in the family). In this case I held back from responding as I thought I should wait for someone -- some likely Bush voter -- to read it and offer some sort of a counterpoint. Of course, that might be hard. Or they could post "Whoa, I had no idea! I'm changing to Kerry!". Or they could post "I don't like to read pieces that long by closet comsymp Air Force shemales!!" I don't know.
I had previously turned up some of her Military Week pieces in Google News and I have to say I am surprised at how little mainstream media attention they get. Maybe I am not watching enough mainstream media.
Like James Bamford, she does not shy away from criticism of Israeli influence on American foreign policy and I think that, in some media circles, that sort of criticism is near-taboo due to (PC?) sensitivity to charges of antisemitism. I think her and Bamford's analyses are compelling, though.
Having just 10 minutes ago returned from the melancholy journey to cast my ballot, I was particularly reminded of her National Security Conversations We Won't Have Before November 2nd column.
Oh, and more good news from the comsymps at the BBC and Johns Hopkins. Of course "We're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here!" and that's all that counts, right?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239253 - 28/10/2004 18:25
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: tonyc]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
Well, those most likely to hold such an opinion (our conservative friends) are over-worked on this BBS... Give 'em a break.
Good point, actually. So I wouldn't read too much into the lack of responses.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239254 - 28/10/2004 22:51
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Dylan]
|
addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
|
Have you seen this? John Kerry Ad
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239255 - 29/10/2004 01:15
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Jerz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
The ad is pretty crappy. He said he wouldn't have made the mistakes that led to us spending as much as we were all by ourselves, but that he would spend more.
If you think these are opposite, well, how's that alternate reality treating you?
Anyway, it's hard to know whether the site author is serious, or not, but if they are, well, I bet they're a topquoter.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239256 - 29/10/2004 03:37
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Daria]
|
member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
|
Excellent job of showing what quoting *anybody* on *any* subject taken out of context can achieve!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239257 - 29/10/2004 04:17
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: kayakjazz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
Not *anybody*. Some people are clever enough to never say anything.
Don't you wish I was one of them?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239258 - 29/10/2004 11:32
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Daria]
|
addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
|
Quote:
The ad is pretty crappy.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239260 - 31/10/2004 04:50
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: tonyc]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
|
Quote:
(our conservative friends) are over-worked on this BBS
True. I for one have just given up. It's plain to see that everyone here has made up his/her mind about who they are going to vote for, and though we may have different opinions neither side is going to gain ANY ground here. Besides, I'd personally like to keep things civil, and with this years election, with the two sides of the coin being soooo opposite, it's hard not to take things personally. So I just keep out of it. In truth, with the amount of ugliness I've seen recently I've been checking the board less and less, since 90% of it is Bush-bashing, which I have no interest in reading.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239261 - 31/10/2004 04:59
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: lectric]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
Quote:
In truth, with the amount of ugliness I've seen recently I've been checking the board less and less, since 90% of it is Bush-bashing, which I have no interest in reading.
Curiousity, where do you consider the line between criticism and bashing to be?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239262 - 31/10/2004 06:32
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Daria]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
|
Saying that you disagree with a decision someone makes is criticism. Calling that person a liar when you have no proof other than what the media has chosen to show you is not. One thing that REALLY turned my stomach was Quote:
Correspondents tend to be college-educated. Colleges are known to be havens for liberal thinking, so correspondents must then be disproportionately liberal. I will email the networks and demand that they hire more high school dropouts.
This smacks of someone who thinks he is better than those who differ in opinion and goes on to insult those who disagree. I guess it's conservativism in general bashing more than Bush bashing.
The level of ego exibited here sometimes is astounding to me. It's easy to sit at home and criticize the decisions Bush has made. He's the president. It is his duty to make difficult decisions. We have the luxury of being able to see what the outcomes are before we decide what our decision would be. I personally think that our going to war with Iraq was a good decision. Others don't.
I guess it comes down to which side of the fence you straddle. There are people on this board that think every move that the president makes is based on political calculation. I'm just not one of them.
Screw it. I'm tired. I'm going to bed.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239263 - 31/10/2004 14:25
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: lectric]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
This smacks of someone who thinks he is better than those who differ in opinion and goes on to insult those who disagree. I guess it's conservativism in general bashing more than Bush bashing.
I am guilty of being too secretively tongue-in-check. That was intended as a provocative joke. I was simply taking the time-honored complaint about "liberal academia" to its logical conclusion with respect to journalists. Come to think of it, though, is it wrong?
I *will* plead guily to falling into a sarcastic frame of mind, though, that I should try to get out of. Calling Daniel Schorr a "comsymp". You know I was kidding, right?
I am probably just taking out my frustrations. As liberal as my new place of employment (a university) seems to be, they still won't let me run around the halls screaming "Look at Bush's record!!!', so I come here. As I said to Brad some time ago, if it gets to where somebody sees my name and hits <Del>, I'll never know, will I?. Some of my frustration comes from the incessant label-tossing (more often by conservatives and conservative media). Is John Kerry a "Flip Flopper"? Maybe, but who knows? Say that often enough and he becomes one. It does feel Orwellian. The word "liberal" has somehow been turned into a pejorative. I think that is a crime.
And while I disagree with much of what conservatism is, in principle, about, I don't set out to bash conservatives. Over the past dark year, some of the most valuable contributions to the debate have come from people who are essentially dyed-in-the-wool conservatives. Folks like that Colonel. I think that many conservatives scarcely recognize some of the people running around Washington describing themselves as conservatives and they say as much.
Here's an early New Year's resolution, though: Win, lose, or draw, I will try to be less sarcastic and will avoid jokes unless thay stand some chance of being funny.
I won't stop calling Bush a liar, though. I trust you have read genixia's recap of Bush & Co lies?
Jim
Bonus feature; For whatever reason, I just looked up this dictionary.com entry for "petard" Now I know!
Word History: The French used pétard, “a loud discharge of intestinal gas,” for a kind of infernal engine for blasting through the gates of a city. “To be hoist by one's own petard,” a now proverbial phrase apparently originating with Shakespeare's Hamlet (around 1604) not long after the word entered English (around 1598), means “to blow oneself up with one's own bomb, be undone by one's own devices.” The French noun pet, “fart,” developed regularly from the Latin noun pditum, from the Indo-European root *pezd-, “fart.”
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239264 - 31/10/2004 15:33
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: lectric]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
Quote:
Saying that you disagree with a decision someone makes is criticism. Calling that person a liar when you have no proof other than what the media has chosen to show you is not.
Calling that person a liar based on what the media has chosen to show me would make me a victim of bad intelligence, right?
Quote:
One thing that REALLY turned my stomach was Quote:
Correspondents tend to be college-educated. Colleges are known to be havens for liberal thinking, so correspondents must then be disproportionately liberal. I will email the networks and demand that they hire more high school dropouts.
This smacks of someone who thinks he is better than those who differ in opinion
Or someone with a more cynical sense of humor than you. I assume he was under no delusions that all college students would come away from the experience liberal. CMU had in the early 90s a relatively well-developed College Republican organzation, for instance. Were they high school dropouts? Well, they certainly seemed as or more intelligent than me, and I'm not. Take for what you will.
Quote:
The level of ego exibited here sometimes is astounding to me. It's easy to sit at home and criticize the decisions Bush has made. He's the president. It is his duty to make difficult decisions. We have the luxury of being able to see what the outcomes are before we decide what our decision would be. I personally think that our going to war with Iraq was a good decision. Others don't.
Armchair quarterbacking. It's not unique to politics. Or sports. So, uh, are the people who argue for days about how some coach should have played a game differently in the same boat, or is this case special? If this case is special, why?
Quote:
I guess it comes down to which side of the fence you straddle. There are people on this board that think every move that the president makes is based on political calculation. I'm just not one of them.
And there are people who believe he's following his (heart, God, whatever). Who's wrong? Maybe no one. Maybe everyone. Maybe he's secretly Kang, and all us liberals are just trying to vote for Kodos.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239265 - 31/10/2004 15:45
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Daria]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
Armchair quarterbacking. It's not unique to politics.
I try to remain wary of Monday-morning quarterbacking, but this, to me, is about much more than that. It is about an administration that consistently, repeatedly lied -- put forth information that they knew to be false/unfounded -- in order to herd public opinion to an invasion. And some people like my sister believed it. Sigh.
Quote:
Maybe he's secretly Kang, and all us liberals are just trying to vote for Kodos.
It pisses me off. A court challenge from the Socialist Workers Party kept Kodos off the ballot here in Washington.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239266 - 31/10/2004 20:42
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: jimhogan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Quote:
Quote:
This smacks of someone who thinks he is better than those who differ in opinion and goes on to insult those who disagree. I guess it's conservativism in general bashing more than Bush bashing.
I am guilty of being too secretively tongue-in-check. That was intended as a provocative joke. [...] I will try to be less sarcastic and will avoid jokes unless thay stand some chance of being funny.
FWIW, I recognized that as a joke, and thought it was funny. 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239267 - 31/10/2004 21:06
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: lectric]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Quote:
It's easy to sit at home and criticize the decisions Bush has made. He's the president. It is his duty to make difficult decisions. We have the luxury of being able to see what the outcomes are before we decide what our decision would be. I personally think that our going to war with Iraq was a good decision. Others don't.
The trouble isn't that he has to make difficult decisions. I can respect people when they have to make a difficult decision. I personally thought going to war in Afghanistan was not a good decision, but I recognize it was a difficult decision, I understand the reasoning behind it, and I respect him for having made that difficult decision.
The problem, as I see it, is that he's making difficult decisions willfully based on willfully skewed information, and for someone doing that, I have less than no respect -- I think it's downright contemptible. For example, why is the energy task force made up solely of oil and energy execs? Where are the balancing environmentalists? As far as Iraq goes, I thought was a horribly stupid idea, especially since a) it took away from the goals in Afghanistan, b) it was *hugely* criticized by both the US and world population, and c) every single reason he used to justify the war was, if not obviously meritless, then highly questionable at the time he was making it. This was not something I thought stupid based on sitting back and watching the outcome, I thought it was a stupid idea from the get-go. Making matters worse, he ignored the advice of people who had real knowledge of the situation. He wasn't a victim of bad intelligence -- the administration set up a group to feed them the intelligence they wanted to hear.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239268 - 31/10/2004 21:22
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: canuckInOR]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
|
Quote:
The problem, as I see it, is that he's making difficult decisions willfully based on willfully skewed information, and for someone doing that, I have less than no respect
Not to mention that he seems to be incapable of admitting he was wrong. I'd have a lot more respect for Bush if he would at least admit that Iraq was a mistake. He can blame the decision on bad intelligence or whatever, but at least admit that based on what we know now the war was not necessary. The fact that he has such unwavering faith in his past decisions frankly scares the crap out of me. What is that quote that goes something like "if we can't learn from our past mistakes we are doomed to repeat them"? Well, that seems to be Bush in a nutshell and that is why I don't want him in office for another four years. It's obvious to me that he is going to make the same mistakes time and time again with increasingly dire consequences. If the opposite of W's staunch determinism is a flip-flopper than I'll take the flip-flopper any day.
The fact that he is unwilling to admit even the possibility of past mistakes makes me feel that there is a larger evil plan here and agree with the conspiracy theorists who site alternate reasons for invading Iraq. Now where did I leave my tinfoil hat...
-Mike
Edited by mcomb (31/10/2004 21:25)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239270 - 01/11/2004 05:42
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
|
Quote:
I just wanted to chime in and mention that the Bush campaign was dealt a serious blow today at FedEx field
And if Kerry does become our next President, we all owe thanks to James Thrash for his illegal motion penalty which called back what would have been the game-winning touchdown for the 'skins.
If you believe in those silly trends/statistics, that is.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239271 - 01/11/2004 11:00
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: tonyc]
|
addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
|
Quote:
Quote:
I just wanted to chime in and mention that the Bush campaign was dealt a serious blow today at FedEx field
And if Kerry does become our next President, we all owe thanks to James Thrash for his illegal motion penalty which called back what would have been the game-winning touchdown for the 'skins.
If you believe in those silly trends/statistics, that is.
I'm still furious about that call! That was terrible. Thrash was just setting his feet. He wasn't moving forward. It's the same thing the motion guy does on every play when he sets himself to block. NFL officiating has been getting worse every year.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239272 - 01/11/2004 13:49
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: Dylan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
|
Yeah, and it's the same referee who blew a roughing the QB penalty against the Eagles last week that almost changed the outcome of the game. Luckily they nailed a 50 yard FG in OT, but if that hadn't happened, that ref would have had to enlist secret service help to get out of the stadium. No big loss, the Redskins weren't going anywhere this year.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#239273 - 01/11/2004 17:37
Re: If you believe that Bush was a victim of bad intelligence
[Re: lectric]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
|
Quote:
So I just keep out of it. In truth, with the amount of ugliness I've seen recently I've been checking the board less and less, since 90% of it is Bush-bashing, which I have no interest in reading.
One of the reasons I kept pretty quiet on the elections recently is exatly because I feared that my opinions and way I formulate them might offend some of our resident conservatives. (Besides, I have not much groundbreakingly new to add - our resident liberals cover more or less all I would.) But I think that Bush criticism is not a shade more severe than he and his handlers deserve, on the contrary.
Please try to understand other people's point of view. Don't automatically dismiss unpleasant news as 'manipulation'. Don't dismiss criticism as 'irrational hatred'. Please do have interest in reading opinion different from your own in matters as crucial for your future (and mime) as this is. Most of 'liberals' here share the homeland with you, and love it as you do. The rest of us share the world with your country, and the world is a small place these days; we all have a stake in this, and wish for the best for our world and America in it.
I must stop, before my emotions make me cross the line and I loose readers like you.
Cheers!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index