#240565 - 07/11/2004 16:57
Primer
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Any of you guys watch this movie yet?
Pretty impressive that it was done on 7K (including scoring and editing). There are a lot of parts where it plays like a student film and where the plot is made even more difficult to follow than it should have been (it supposed to be difficult to follow anyway, but the director has said there is only one part he didn't give enough information within the movie for the audience to understand), but overall I felt much closer to the director and the story than most movies coming out of Hollywood.
Anyway, if you liked "Memento" and math/science, this is a pretty cool mindbender. I'd also like to hash through a few of the details with some of you who are a bit smater than myself because I don't think I'll get to see it again anytime soon (not a "wife friendly" movie).
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240566 - 08/11/2004 00:06
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
|
Ooh, another Memento? The sheer elegance of Memento's creation makes it my favorite movie by a long long shot (yes, even more than Monsters Inc). But how is it not “wife friendly”, because that means it’s probably not “me friendly”. Along the lines of “American History X” or maybe “The Pianist” or tamer? Thanks, I always appreciate a content barometer.
Oh, and the mention of math and independant films in the same post brings to mind "Pi"; another interesting one to see.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240567 - 08/11/2004 02:30
Re: Primer
[Re: FireFox31]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
Ooh, another Memento? The sheer elegance of Memento's creation makes it my favorite movie by a long long shot
Memento is great, at least in my top ten, if not five. I don't know if I'd go as far as "another Memento", but it shares some characteristics. Memento is a bit more "elegant" (since you used the world) and is a bit more accessable. I don't want to give anything away, but it has a sci-fi premise that involves suspension of belief (though there is some real science involved), but it's definitely about the characters and how they are affected more than the thing itself.
What it has in common with Memento is the need for repeat viewings to get the whole story (though with Memento I got the basics the first time and with Primer I know it's going to take repeate viewings to even get the whole story figured out), and the general feeling of things getting more out of control as the story progresses. But where Memento leaves you going "hmmm, let me think about this some more," Primer leaves you with "what happened in the last 30 minutes of that movie?" I think part of this is by design, and part is due to its limited budget.
Quote:
But how is it not “wife friendly”, because that means it’s probably not “me friendly”.
I should have said "my wife" friendly: she doesn't like "heady" movies. Anything that leaves you confused at the end of the movie will just frustrate her. There is no blood, not sex, and just a little VERY tame language.
Quote:
Oh, and the mention of math and independant films in the same post brings to mind "Pi"; another interesting one to see.
Haven't see Pi, but a lot of the reviews I've read of primer bill it as "Pi meets Memento", so I'm interested in watching Pi now.
If you want more information about the movie, check out the website.
But really, this is the kind of art I like supporting anyway. Even if you throw away the story and everything else about it, it's just neet to see someone make a movie like this on sheer ambition.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240568 - 08/11/2004 05:00
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Pi is nuts. Definitely not a "your wife" movie 
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240569 - 08/11/2004 06:38
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
|
Quote:
Anything that leaves you confused at the end of the movie will just frustrate her.
I don't understand what is confusing about the end of Memento. To my mind the plot is neatly resolved, sure during the movie it gets "confusing" part way through, but it all makes sense by the end.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240570 - 08/11/2004 11:15
Re: Primer
[Re: andy]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
I don't understand what is confusing about the end of Memento. To my mind the plot is neatly resolved, sure during the movie it gets "confusing" part way through, but it all makes sense by the end.
Only IF you've been able to pay attention through the whole thing. Now with Memento I think they did a fantastic job with the script so that in a movie that could have been a nightmare to follow was actually not too bad (how it didn't win an award for the script is beyond me). Still, at the end there are questions to ask (or at least I did): "Was it really the truth he heard at the end of the movie?" Because he'd been tricked so many times before by people, how do when know the cop was telling the truth? I suspected he was, but I definitely was thinking about it all for a while. After a second viewing there was left little doubt in my mind that what the cop said was true, however, given that one of the themes of the movie is that the things we trust can often betray us even when all the pieces fit together, you have to question if even at the end of the movie what we really heard was the truth.
But more than anything, a movie that requires constant attention to "get it" is not something my wife would enjoy. Additionally the insulin scene would end it for her if the confusion didn't. She did buy me the DVD though; she just won’t watch it. That’s fine because there are several movies that go the other way!
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240571 - 08/11/2004 12:12
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
|
Quote:
After a second viewing there was left little doubt in my mind that what the cop said was true
Even if it wasn't, and there was still some doubt, I think it's sometimes a good thing for an audience to leave the movie theater* asking questions of themselves and of others, about the movie.
* - I went for the US spelling, 'cos in the UK, "movie theater" is spelt "cinema".
_________________________
-- roger
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240572 - 08/11/2004 16:19
Re: Primer
[Re: Roger]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
Even if it wasn't, and there was still some doubt, I think it's sometimes a good thing for an audience to leave the movie theater* asking questions of themselves and of others, about the movie.
I agree for sure. My favorite movies are those that foster intelligent conversations afterward. Unfortunatly, my wife has only a certain threshold for this: she likes the "Matrix", "Totall Recall", and "the 13th Floor" which all have a moderate level of philophical questioning wrapped up in a nice accessabel story, but films like "Being There", "Memento", or "Primer" I have to find other friends to have a meamingful discussion.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240573 - 08/11/2004 20:43
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
|
Nice, thanks for the info, I'll try to check it out. Ah, "13th Floor" was pretty interesting. Too bad it tried to go head-to-head with Matrix at the box office, but it still had an interesting point.
And if you watch Pi, CRANK the volume. The soundtrack rocks, featuring tracks from Roni Size, Massive Attack, Gus Gus, Orbital, Aphex Twin, Banco De Gaia, and more.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240574 - 08/11/2004 20:52
Re: Primer
[Re: FireFox31]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
Ah, "13th Floor" was pretty interesting. Too bad it tried to go head-to-head with Matrix at the box office, but it still had an interesting point.
Do you think the timing was intentional or just bad luck? I really enjoyed both, the Matrix because it was "cool" and the 13th Floor because it was a bit more substantial (though certainly not "hard core SF")
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240575 - 08/11/2004 21:00
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
I'd have liked "The 13th Floor" better if I hadn't guessed the twist during the advertisements.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240576 - 08/11/2004 21:30
Re: Primer
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
That's one of the perils of having too much of a movie invested in the twist, which is why the Matrix is ultimately a better movie. Even after knowing the "twist", it's still a load of fun to watch. The 13th Floor loses most of it's appeal after its twist.
Still, I'm exceptionally bad at guessing twists, so most of those movies are fun for me at least the first time around.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240577 - 09/11/2004 02:15
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
|
Quote:
Do you think the timing was intentional or just bad luck?
Must have been intentional. As I see it, this happens all the time in the movie industry. Man, I can't think of all the examples that I used to know. It sure seemed like production companies would know what other movies were in the works and adjust their production and release schedule accordingly.
Sometimes, they create competing films and sometimes, it seems, they produce terrible films because they know they can't compete. As if the production companies have to always have a film out even though it might be terrible. This is my only justification for horrible movies, which I took a fancy to watching at one point in my life (Supernova, What Planet are You From, The Omega Code, etc).
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240578 - 09/11/2004 02:32
Re: Primer
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
I never saw the ads, and didn't guess the twist. I liked it enough that I got the DVD, it's still interesting in terms of the sets.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240579 - 09/11/2004 03:35
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
|
_________________________
Donato MkII/080000565 MkIIa/010101253 ricin.us
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240580 - 09/11/2004 04:26
Re: Primer
[Re: ricin]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240581 - 09/11/2004 13:27
Re: Primer
[Re: ricin]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Nothing to add here, I just wanted to say that Dark City is one of my top three favorite movies ever.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240582 - 11/11/2004 19:24
Re: Primer
[Re: FireFox31]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
Oh, and the mention of math and independant films in the same post brings to mind "Pi"; another interesting one to see.
I just saw "Pi", and I'll say "Primer" is somewhere in between both "Pi" and "Memento", probably leaning more toward "Pi". The science and filmmaking itself are closer to "Pi", where the "what the heck is going on?" aspect is more reminiscent of "Memento".
As for "Pi" itself, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I think I was expecting something more obscure, when in the end it a pretty simple story told in a unique way. With all the emphasis I've read about the math in the movie, it was more metaphysical than I expected. Not that that's bad, but I was just expecting some mind-bending math (of course, a movie about solving really complex math equations isn't appealing in the least, so I don't know what I was expecting!) I do have one question though (it's the computer programmer in me):
[Pi spoiler]
How can a 216 letter word map into a 216 digit number? Based on the methods specified in the move (A=1, B=2, etc.) this doesn't seem to work unless the number is taken from the first 9 letters of the alphabet.
[/Pi spoiler]
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240583 - 11/11/2004 21:06
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
It's been a while since I've seen it, but I have two questions. Was it an English word? ISTR that the Hebrew alphabet has many fewer letters than the Roman one. Was it a base ten number? (Of course, if it's English and a base-26 number, that's not very interesting, is it?)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240584 - 11/11/2004 22:43
Re: Primer
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Hebrew. I don't know how many letters are in the Hebrew alphabet, but I know there are more than 10 letters in the alphabet. The number looked like base 10 to me when they showed parts of it (all digits 1-9, I'm not sure if there were 0s). Quote:
Of course, if it's English and a base-26 number, that's not very interesting, is it?
heh, reminds me of Douglas Adams saying "no one writes jokes in base 13".
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240585 - 02/03/2005 02:32
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Just in case anyone was interested but couldn't see it in the theater due to such a limited release, Primer is now coming out on DVD. I have my copy pre-ordered so I can watch it enough times to figure out exactly what happened! BTW, there is a key to understanding it all that was brought to my attention after seeing the movie- it was a clue given by the director in a Q&A session and it helped clear things up for me even having only seen the movie once. If anyone's interested I'll gladly share . . .
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240586 - 17/04/2005 02:21
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Alright, last time I'll bring this movie up, I promise.  I just got the DVD and it was definitely a fantastic watch the second time around. Perhaps it's because I've had several months to think it through, but I’ve figured it all out now (well, there's one nagging question remaining, but it's a small thing), which surprised me given that people on the movie's BBS have talked about seeing it four or five times and still not getting the plot. What I can safely say is that all the information is there and it IS understandable. Besides, the most compelling parts of the movie are the character decisions and interactions which are pretty tangible without needing to "get" the plot. But the real reason that I'm bringing this up again is the director commentary on the movie. It is BY FAR the best commentary I've ever heard on a DVD. It's pretty obvious why, as this movie was a labor of love by a guy who really didn't know what he was doing, so it becomes a fascinating look at what really goes into making a movie. He speaks very frankly about why certain shots didn't work like he expected and how much work he created for himself by not shooting any extra footage (they shot just over 80 minutes of footage and used something like 78 for the movie). On top of that, he provides some insight into his feelings about the characters, and some of this surprised me actually. At any rate, Carruth (the writer/director/actor) is fairly unassuming person, so it really is enjoyable to just hear the guy talk about the art he created. Anyway, I can't recommend this DVD highly enough. Though the movie sometimes comes of like a student film" it is compelling viewing and he really did do a fantastic job for only having a $7,000 budget.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240587 - 18/04/2005 03:34
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
|
people on the movie's BBS have talked about seeing it four or five times and still not getting the plot I cannot imagine watching a movie more than once that was so obtusely made that I couldn't understand it (usually, not even that much -- I'll bail after the first half hour, life's too short and all that), and the idea of watching it four or five times just boggles my mind. I guess I just don't have the patience for such things... I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I think I'll pass. tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240588 - 18/04/2005 03:36
Re: Primer
[Re: tanstaafl.]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
I think it's more like... the people who couldn't understand it were the obtuse ones.
I don't think you'd have the slightest problem with the films mentioned in this thread, Doug.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240589 - 18/04/2005 09:29
Re: Primer
[Re: tanstaafl.]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
I cannot imagine watching a movie more than once that was so obtusely made that I couldn't understand it (usually, not even that much -- I'll bail after the first half hour, life's too short and all that), and the idea of watching it four or five times just boggles my mind.
I guess I just don't have the patience for such things... I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I think I'll pass.
Probably this one isn't for you. I read an interview where the director said he attempted to make it so that you'd be able to get about 70% upon first watching. The only reason he didn't make it clearer is because he felt like that explaining everything in an obvious manner is treating the audience like children.
The only qualification I'll add is that Primer doesn't start getting confusing until about the last 25 minutes- so you understand the basic premise and setup. It's just that he pulls several fast ones all at once which change multiple assumptions about the plot, one of which is elevating the importance of an event that is only discussed in passing (not even show) and this discussion was difficult to understand due to poor audio quality (though it was much easier to understand on the DVD).
At any rate, it certainly wasn't 70% clear to me the first go round, but definitely after the second. I'd say most of the clarity problems I had the first time around were because of the production quality- there were a few key conversations that I didn't quite understand due to background noise or other low budget problems. So I can forgive him that much at least.
But I don't mind watching a movie more than once if it is compelling enough.
As to what Tony said, none of the other movies mentioned earlier (of those that I've seen) require a second viewing. Memento (which I cannot recommend highly enough) I watched again because I wasn't quite sure about the "final reveal", but I've watched it several times now and love it more every go round. Pi I had absolutely no problem understanding, nor was it really that confusing- it did have the low budget thing going on, though even that one had a bigger budget than Primer.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240590 - 18/04/2005 13:26
Re: Primer
[Re: tanstaafl.]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Quote:
I cannot imagine watching a movie more than once that was so obtusely made that I couldn't understand it
I think I understand your point. One of my friends only sees movies that are simple and "fun" and require no real thought. Of course, that means that I think he sees largely terrible movies.
The problem with this is that the movies aren't made obtusely; they're made densely. (I know nothing about Primer, though I do intend to watch it.) It's not so much a question of not being able to understand it (unless you're a moron or not paying attention), or even enjoy it, but that the movie is so fully packed with information that there's so much more nuance that can be obtained watching it again and again, and much of that nuance can color the film in ways you didn't even begin to see the first time around. Sometimes when you know the plot well enough, you start watching the background, or the characters not talking, and so many more things can be found there.
I'd have thought you, as a classical music fan, would have understood that. A similar mindset goes into its appreciation as well.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240591 - 19/04/2005 00:07
Re: Primer
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
|
I'd have thought you, as a classical music fan, would have understood that.
Oh, I understand it all right. It's just that movies as such aren't really a very important part of my life. I am probably one of the few people who have TiVo, but do not subscribe to any cable or satellite service -- all I get are the four TV networks, and PBS. I watch a lot of TV (well, I watch a lot of TiVo, I never watch TV) but not with any studied intensity. Since TiVo records more programs than I have time to watch, my patience is pretty limited -- if it doesn't grab me in the first 10-15 minutes, I delete it and go on to something that does.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240592 - 08/05/2005 12:19
Re: Primer
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
I am so confused.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#240593 - 09/05/2005 10:38
Re: Primer
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Heh, yeah, that was my first reaction too. It makes me feel somewhat better than one of the more intelligent minds here on the BBS was as confused as I was. For me, a second watch really cleared things up, but I've found others are not always willing to invest the time. If you are interested, here are a couple of things that might help it all make sense.
[spoilers galore]
1. The theme of the movie, regardless of time travel, is all about trust and how it relates to extreme technological advances. By the end of the movie, not only can these two friends not trust each other, but they cannot even trust themselves.
2. The really imprtant thing is to realize how the movie deals with paradoxes, which is that they are allowed. If you go back and change history, that revision "sticks", even if you make it so that you never could have possibly ended up going back (i.e. if you knock yourself out and lock yourself in an attic so that you never got in the box in the first place, then the universe doesn't stop. There are now, however, two of you running around). The director has said something about this the the effect of: paradoxes are a human limitation. If you create one you won't break the universe, but you'll probably break yourself.
3. The movie follows Abe's prespective throughout. Thus, while it's difficult to tell when Aaron goes back and uses the device, or what revision he's on, we are alsways seeing the latest revision from Abe's perspective.
4. By the first park bench scene, Aaron has already gone back and used the "failsafe" box at least once, drugged himself, and put him in the attic (his wife complains about birds in the attic). Since this action has over written the previous version of events, we don't ever see them.
5. By the end of the movie, the two guys have messed with their past realities enough to have created at least two permenent versions of Abe and three permenent versions of Aaron.
6. The voiceover is the "second Aaron" (the one wearing the hoodie who drugged the origional Aaron) who left when he fought with the "third Aaron", who was completely obsessed with being the hero at the party. It appears that the voicover is a phonecall that the second Aaron has placed to the origional Aaron in order to explain why he was knocked out and stuck in an attic for a while ("I have repaid any debt that I might have owed you").
7. There is no information given as to how Granger has gone back, or what really happens to him. The point of this is that these two guys who are thinking they can control everything are now at the mercy of someone else and his revisions of history. That what's going on with Granger is completey unknowable is part of the theme of secrecy in the movie.
8. One of the telling thematic things in the movie is how the character's react when the find themselves at the mercy of someone else who has gone back. Aaron muses about what he did "the first time"- that he simply went to work and didn't know anything about the machine, and there is definitely a sense of loss about this that his reality was changed by Abe. So he goes back and makes himself the "hero" at the party, because that is what really motivates him. When Abe experiences this later, with the Granger incident, he freaks out and decides to "reset" the entire experience. Unfortunatly he can't becase Aaron had already found the "failsafe" and used it.
[/spoilers galore]
Anyway, that's really way too much to write about a silly little movie, but there you have it. That doesn't explain everything, but at least most of it is pretty understandable. I think the problem with understanding the plot is not how confusing it is, but how so much is explained right at the end with the voicover. Your mind can’t adjust to the new information being given before more is thrown at you. I have heard of some people saying they got it all the first time, but they might have been lying
I enjoyed this movie a lot, mostly because I kept thinking about it once I left the theater, but I fear it defintely isn't for everyone. No matter what, I still think it’s an impressive achievement for $7,000.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index