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#242368 - 23/11/2004 18:29 New laptop..... iBook or PC?
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
The insurance company look like they might be getting ready to pay up on my burglary, only 1 and 1/2 months after it happened. Although they're getting decidedly shitty about my spare empeg, claiming it's not covered as it's a car stereo. But anyway, i digress.....

I had two PC's stolen, my Myth box and a desktop machine in my study. Although both machines are quite up-to-date, it's dawned upon me that I never really use the desktop machine any more. So replacing it seems a little pointless. My laptop is a 4 year old Tosh Sat Pro which gets daily hammer at home and is beginning to fall apart (literally) it now has some rather annoying habits. So I've decided to use the money from the desktop to buy a new laptop instead.

Now here's the dilemma, should I buy a 12inch iBook for £749 or try and find something Intel based for a similar price? A friend of mine bought a new HP for £500 and it's horrible. £749 seems like a really good price, they're now putting Airport extreme in as standard and bluetooth is only £35. It would also be my final two fingers to Micro$oft (although VirtualPC looks intriguing). So what do you guys think? I know thinfourth converted a couple of years ago and loren and drakino are big Mac users. So come on, is it worth it?
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#242369 - 23/11/2004 18:36 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I might know the answer in a couple of weeks, as Apple are lending me a G5 for a while to port some software from the PC to the Mac...

...though at the same time I'll be spending £800 on a new desktop PC for some other work I am doing.
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#242370 - 23/11/2004 18:40 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
Sigh, another religious discussion...

The answer depends totally on what applications you plan to run on the laptop.

As much as I like the apple computers, there's certain things I just can't run on them which precludes me from using them. But if you research it and find that you can do everything you want on an apple, then I'd say go for it.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#242371 - 23/11/2004 18:53 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: tfabris]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Quote:
there's certain things I just can't run on them which precludes me from using them

At this year's European meet, I witnessed Drakino syncing his Karma using RMM using USB through VirtualPC on his Powerbook. If that wasn't impressive enough, his Powerbook battery ran out of juice during the USB sync.

Tom closed the Powerbook, took out the dead battery and went up to the room to get his spare. When he came back down 3-4 minutes later and installed the fresh battery, the USB sync was still open and actually was able to take off from where he left off without doing a single thing. That was pretty awesome.

I am coming really close to getting an Apple laptop. The only thing that's stopping me at this point is that my Dell X200 works perfectly and I love the size. Once it gets dead or lost, it seems an iBook or maybe Powerbook will be in order.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#242372 - 23/11/2004 18:57 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
If I had to make that decision again I would go for the Mac.

I have a Toshiba Tecra Centrino laptop (in fact I'm using it now as the HD has died in the desktop), while the battery life is very good, it's bigger that I would like and hasn't really lived upto the ideal I was sold.

A mate of mine has a powerbook, it's the perfect solution for a laptop I think, I wouldn't have a mac desktop given but their laptops have to be up there with the best designed objects of all time IMHO

Cheers

Cris.

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#242373 - 23/11/2004 18:59 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: tfabris]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
I don't think there's much Microsoft specific stuff I need. I do a bit of coding in VC++ but that's a minor problem. As long as I can surf the net, read emails, watch a DVD, edit audio and video then I'm happy.
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#242374 - 23/11/2004 19:04 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: tfabris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
For a lot of people the software is the same (like me). So there's nothing religious about it. It's just a different vendor. I try not to even think about the OS. Though after using Mac OS X on a more personal level (as opposed to testing work) I'm finding mroe and more annoying things about Windows. And surprisingly many of the really annoying things about Mac OS X are getting addressed in software updates or can be worked around with third-party software.

My first concern about the iBook is the small screen size. It's also a bit heavy. I wouldn't recommend the 12" PowerBook though because of the NV graphics of course. The 9200 graphics in the iBook are a bit slouchy for 3D and will be very out-dated for when the new Panther OS comes out (ie. won't be able to use many of the new shader stuff in CoreImage). Also, the iBooks' external display is by default Mirror-Only. Not extended desktop like on the PB's. You used to be able to hack around this though if you need this functionality.

The 15" PowerBook is very nice but a lot more expensive.

I can wholeheartedly recommend any of the Apple notebooks over a large number of PC products (from Toshiba and HP for instance). Especially if you're after things like 6-pin firewire, bluetooth, 802.11g, etc.. If you want to upgrade memory, it might make more sense to do it from a third party (at least on the PB's this is true).

Some of the new Toshiba models look decent, but I don't know their specs. e-Machines also had some snappy units that looked and felt a lot better than offerings from the bigger companies like Dell and HP.

Really look at what software you'll be running to help figure this all out. Also, Virtual PC as well as MS Remote Desktop help to fill the gap when you absolutely need to run some Windows content and performance isn't the greatest concern.

[EDIT] I just saw Andy's latest reply. Get the iBook. Your usage pattern will be a nice match for an Apple notebook. Especially once you factor in being able to run the nice Apple software like iDVD and iMovie. They're a bit limited, but can easily get you by in a pinch. Then there's Motion (which really likes more graphics horsepower and a crap-load of RAM) and Final Cut (Express or Pro), not to mention DVD Studio Pro. They simply have no comparable equivalents for Windows. For the generic stuff like the Web I now run Firefox and I'll be switching mail on my Windows machine over to Thunderbird so I can use the same client and files on the Mac. For MP3 tag editing I run my Windows box as a Remote Desktop in a window on my PowerBook.

Bruno


Edited by hybrid8 (23/11/2004 19:10)
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#242375 - 23/11/2004 19:19 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
I don't think there's much Microsoft specific stuff I need. I do a bit of coding in VC++ but that's a minor problem. As long as I can surf the net, read emails, watch a DVD, edit audio and video then I'm happy.


I use a Mac at home and a PC at work. Most things just work without much trouble. Firefox is Firefox and emacs is emacs, after all. If you like lots of Unix tools (I spend an awful lot of time dealing with LaTeX), then a Mac is much better than cygwin on a PC. Of course, if you want to run Linux or do some kind of VMware solution, then you get parity on Unix features (although the single-button mouse can make it tricky to deal with X apps that want to use three buttons).

For audio and video editing, there are some amazing tools on the Mac that don't have PC equivalents. This could well be a deciding factor in favor of the Mac. On the flip side, if you're into games, then the PC may blow a Mac out of the water.

If you really intend the computer to be portable, then the decision gets tougher. The 12" PowerBook is a furnace. Plus, Apple hasn't seen fit to sell a sub-three pound notebook, while all of their PC competition sell numerous varieties on the theme. This baffles me, because the difference is quite significant if you do a lot of travelling. On the flip side, if you're not planning to lug it around, the 15" Powerbook seems like the sweet spot in Apple's product line. Big screen, nice keyboard, etc.

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#242376 - 23/11/2004 19:20 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: hybrid8]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Mmmm, the Mac is looking better by the second. Just have to get the insurance money sorted first.
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#242377 - 23/11/2004 19:23 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Too bad normal laptops and desktops won't drive the new 30" Apple LCD, though. I saw one for the first time last week. It's a jaw-dropping beautiful experience. I just can't see any way to justify the expense, but ... wow.

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#242378 - 23/11/2004 19:27 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: DWallach]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
I don't know wether they were 30inch, but at Selfridges in Manchester they had a G5 running 2 displays, THAT was awesome. So much desktop, it would take me days to fill that shortcuts...
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#242379 - 23/11/2004 19:52 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
Jerz
addict

Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
OK, I'll chime in with my new Fujitsu S6210 that I got at Fry's for $1,749.00 a couple of months ago; the centrino processer is very impressive as compared to the PIV and the screen is awesome.

... definately a religious discussion though.

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#242380 - 23/11/2004 19:55 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Hm. If you don't game on your laptop, then I think a Mac is a no-brainer.

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#242381 - 23/11/2004 21:51 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: Daria]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Just wanted to vouch for my 15" Powerbook. This is the best computer I've ever bought though it was damn pricey. It was like the empeg. I was leary at first but now know it was worth every penny. The old "it just works" adage is very true with OSX. It still surprises me all the time with things that you'd expect an OS to do, but have learned to not expect them by using windows. Little things like that battery swap mentioned above, it's wireless networking slickness, bluetooth slickness... all kinds of slick. I've been using Virtual PC lately for any PC only apps I need (like Garmin Mapsource) and it works flawlessly and surprisingly fast.

Only downer is that with the lates OS upgrade, half of my RAM suddenly disappeared. I can't find any info on it except on Macfixit which is a pay site. I'll be calling Apple as soon as I get home. According to the few posts I have found about it, they swap the logic board and you're good as new.


Edited by loren (23/11/2004 21:52)
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#242382 - 23/11/2004 21:56 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: loren]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
Quote:
According to the few posts I have found about it, they swap the logic board and you're good as new.

So you're saying that an OS upgrade has wiped out a memory bank, and a new motherboard is required to fix it? Sounds rather sketchy to me.

Matthew
(Who's waiting patiently for new powerbooks. ok, not very patiently)

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#242383 - 23/11/2004 22:33 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: matthew_k]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Everything about the Mac is sketchy. But it just works. Unless it doesn't. Then it's broken.

I agree with Loren, the slickness of the simple and small things make it really shine. Or rather it's the contrived and unimaginable way some of these things are handled in Windows that makes them mind-boggling.

All PowerBooks (including the 15") get piping hot when they're running plugged with their power connnector. Loren, can you also confirm this with yours?

Loren: You might want to send a note to Mike over at XLR8yourMac.com to see if he'll post your problem to his board. That will get other comments up over night and you'll likely do service to others if it hasn't already been mentioned.

Correction to my first post: I meant to write new TIGER OS (10.4), not Panther (10.3 which is already out).

Bruno


Edited by hybrid8 (24/11/2004 22:28)
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#242384 - 24/11/2004 04:35 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: hybrid8]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Re: the head issue. YES. It gets too hot to touch if you are doing disk or processor intensive tasks, especially while plugged in. I can't keep it on my legs for long once the fan kicks on, it's just too damn hot. It's definitely not a deal breaker, since every laptop I've used lately has the same issue. It's the nature of the beast it seems.

I'll deal with the RAM thing when i get home... too much going on at the moment. Thanks for the tip though!
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|| loren ||

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#242385 - 24/11/2004 05:35 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: loren]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Quote:
YES. It gets too hot to touch if you are doing disk or processor intensive tasks, especially while plugged in.


If everything you need done can be done in the Mac world and heat or price isn't a problem go Mac.

Heat was a deal breaker for me. I like to kick back in the lazy-boy with my laptop. The last couple of machines I've had were burners. (wallstreet and KDS pos) I would have liked to buy Apple. As mentioned earlier, "They just work!"

Working temp ins't listed in any spec or review I've ever seen. I finally realized that heat output corralates with watts consumed. The power supply of my current machine is rated at 45 watts. Plugged in running full blast, it only gets warm. Plugged in idling like now, it's only slightly warm. I love that.

FWIW: World Wind seems to be good software to heat stress a laptop.

I really wonder about apple's heat output. I have a Wallstreet at both home and at work. Identical machines. The work machine dosen't get hot. Not like the home machine. I've always suspected that the home machine has some kind of short working through the emi coatings.
_________________________
Glenn

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#242386 - 24/11/2004 06:38 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: hybrid8]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
I'm finding mroe and more annoying things about Windows.

While I really saw some of the annoying issues pop out when I did my PC to Mac switch, even more appeared now that I have a PC "laptop" again. Thankfully it will never really be used as a laptop, since I have the Powerbook, but things I notice all the time:

1. Screen brightness. My Powerbook sets the brightness based on the ambient light. The PC, well, has two settings, bright or dim when it gets unplugged. Didn't notice how much I like this feature till I was without it on another system. My CRTs at work have light sensors to do the same thing.

2. Battery life reporting. On an Apple machine, the battery goes from 100 to 0%, then the machine goes to sleep. Sleep will probably last 12 hours at most, with that time shortened with more memory. If it falls asleep, simply pull the battery and put the new one in. PC, starts panicking at 20% and will never hit 0% and properly sleep. I remember my old Armada, and the constant tweaks I had to do in the power settings to get it to hibernate in time before the battery dropped completly dead. Off by a bit, and work loss occured. I also did not dare to put it to sleep, and the idea of it recovering from sleep in a matter of seconds like the Powerbook is a joke.

3. Slot load drive. I despise tray load drives on a laptop now, they just feel so fragile. Slot load gets around that issue.

4. Little touches, like the power adaptor coming with a built in cable wrap, and easy to swap out international plugs. They even went to the trouble of ordering the ports on the side of the system based on size. Not overly useful over another port layout, but shows attention to detail.

5. LEDs. Do you really need a power led, a hard drive led, a solid blue led for bluetooth and a charging led? Not really. The only useful one is the charging led, and the Powerbook puts that on the plug instead of on the system.

6. Slim form factor. The Powerbook is a decent machine, including the 17 inch version. But for some reason, Apple seems to be the only company capable of building a powerful 17 inch laptop that isn't overly thick. Also, the system is smooth all around. It just slides into a laptop bag, and doesn't have feet to catch on things, or miscellaneous doors and vents.


Those types of little things in the hardware are why I don't get held back by a one button mouse. The system makes up for it in many other ways. Software wise, it is the same way. When I sat down and thought about how I used my machines, it became very clear that every task could be accomplished just fine on the Powerbook except one. That one would be gaming. So I made the decision to seperate productivity from gaming, and now maintain the Wintendo for games. Being that it only serves one puropse, it actually does really well. And the Powerbook still lets me play World of Warcraft on the go if needed, without hauling around the new Dell Inspiron portable brick, err, 9100. And time wise? I spend more time doing things, and less time trying to figure out how to do things or how to fix something. It's also why I moved my grandparents to a Mac as well. They can now just get things done, like plugging in the camera and having photos be transferred off of it.

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#242387 - 24/11/2004 09:11 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
One problem with Apple laptops is they don't make diddy ones. If Apple made a 10in-screen Ibook or Powerbook I'd have got that rather than buying Hugo's hand-me-down Vaio. As it is I'm pretending it's a Macintosh by running Windows XP on it.

Peter

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#242388 - 24/11/2004 17:52 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: peter]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
I think it's settled, an iBook it is. The nice lady from the insurance company is ringing me tomorrow to discuss my claim, so fingers crossed!

EDIT: And I'm a Pooh-Bah as well!!! Nice one!!!
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#242389 - 24/11/2004 18:07 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
EDIT: And I'm a Pooh-Bah as well!!! Nice one!!! :):)

Hmm...Tom, do you type those titles in yourself? Why isn't Andy's capitalized?
_________________________
Matt

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#242390 - 24/11/2004 18:43 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Welcome to the bright side.

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#242391 - 24/11/2004 21:23 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: drakino]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
Battery life reporting. On an Apple machine, the battery goes from 100 to 0%, then the machine goes to sleep. Sleep will probably last 12 hours at most, with that time shortened with more memory. If it falls asleep, simply pull the battery and put the new one in. PC, starts panicking at 20% and will never hit 0% and properly sleep. I remember my old Armada, and the constant tweaks I had to do in the power settings to get it to hibernate in time before the battery dropped completly dead. Off by a bit, and work loss occured. I also did not dare to put it to sleep, and the idea of it recovering from sleep in a matter of seconds like the Powerbook is a joke.


My Dell laptop behaves pretty much the same as the Apple in that respect then. Also, when the battery gets really low it will hibernate to disk before turning off completely. I have never lost any data despite running the battery right down many, many times. Not all PC laptops are created equal...

Also WinXP makes a big difference with regard to quick return from sleep and power management. Anyone using Win2k or a laptop instead of WinXP is missing out.
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#242392 - 24/11/2004 21:27 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Well, I've got the Mac. It is a Dual G5 2.5GHz, 512Mb with a 20 inch screen.

The hardware is work of art. Probably the most desirable kit of hardware I have ever used.

I haven't used MacOS since 7.5, so I need to find my way around MacOS X. It still appears to have some of the annoying quirks of the old MacOS, the most irritating being the lack of comprehensive keyboard control in dialog boxes.

Edit: Ok, I found the option that enables better keyboard navigation in dialogs
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#242393 - 25/11/2004 09:16 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andy]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Not all PC laptops are created equal...


Yeah, my Sony SRX87 has pretty good battery management. It quite happily warns me in plenty of time, and hibernates (or goes into standby, as configured) as it should.

Also, with Windows XP, it comes up extremely quickly.
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-- roger

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#242394 - 25/11/2004 10:29 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andy]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
My work Dell (D600) was brilliant under Win2k - really fast hibernate and re-awakening (11 seconds to boot!) but under XP it really sucks. Hibernate does not work at all, so I have to use standby - which has never failed to lose work if I have any apps open! It also fails to cope with USB devices or networks being changed while in Standby under XP. It was fine with all these under WIn2k.

Luckily, except for connecting to the corporate LAN, I can run it in Linux for all other occasions and it runs beautifully. It is a good machine.

I quite like MAC OS X, but still feel it has some way to go and it misses out on a lot of the things I would use regularly, so in my opinion a good PC laptop with Linux will always beat an Apple machine (but from your needs I think Apple is the way to go for you)

Hmmm - turned into a bit of a blether...can you tell I'm really hacked off at XP. Soooo blimming sucky!!! Why would anyone write an OS like this? Aaaaarrkkkk!
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock

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#242395 - 25/11/2004 10:47 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: andym]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Quote:
I don't know wether they were 30inch, but at Selfridges in Manchester they had a G5 running 2 displays, THAT was awesome. So much desktop, it would take me days to fill that shortcuts...


hey, that's my trick! I get abuse at work because it doesn't take me too long to fill my dual 1600x1200 monitors to the brim with shortcuts and files.....eventually you have to tidy up because you can't find anything at all!

I've got a desktop G4 which is ok, OS X is very nice but it's still pretty sluggish (although stuff like the user switching and expose in tiger are mouth watering!), but that's possible because mines a 733 without the extra cache.

For everyday stuff it rules, I use my PC a lot, but like you it's pretty much only for VC, can't really think of any applications on the PC that I really *need* to run that don't have a counterpart on the mac.

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#242396 - 25/11/2004 11:20 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: frog51]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Interesting - the only problem I have with hybernating on my Compaq Evo N1020v (under XP) is that it refuses to wake up if I have close to all virtual memory used (I have half a gig of physical mem and currently about 1,2G of swap file), which happens extremely rarely. I hardly shut it down at all, just hybernate. Batery meter is reasonably accurate (but the batery itself is nothing to write home about). On my old Thinkpad it had more or less 4 positions: 100%, 80%, 10%, 0%...

But when will Microsoft manage to make an actually multitasking operating system? When I load a database, or run a Paint Shop Pro batch, or doing anything else that is both CPU and disk intensive, it takes about 20 seconds to do something as trivial as minimize a window!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#242397 - 25/11/2004 14:59 Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC? [Re: frog51]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
My work Dell (D600) was brilliant under Win2k - really fast hibernate and re-awakening (11 seconds to boot!) but under XP it really sucks. Hibernate does not work at all, so I have to use standby - which has never failed to lose work if I have any apps open! It also fails to cope with USB devices or networks being changed while in Standby under XP. It was fine with all these under WIn2k.



Well that is fairly bizarre. Guess what laptop I own that works so well using WinXP ?

Yes, a Dell D600...
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