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#254180 - 14/04/2005 13:17 Backup Solutions
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
My webserver died the other day. Fortunately, it was the motherboard. The disk was fine, and I didn't lose any data. I've moved the functionality to my other Linux box, and it all seems to be working fine, so far.

It did bring home the painful fact that I'm extremely slack when it comes to backup. The last time, for example, when I decided to back up my MP3 collection to DVD, I gave up after the first 3 hours of swapping disks.

So, I'm looking at proper backup solutions. Here's my thinking:

1. Tape drives are expensive. For example, VXA2 drives start at £600. DLT drives are over a grand.
2. Hard disks are about the same price as equivalently-sized tapes.
3. However, removable disks require a caddy for each disk. I'm not looking at single-shot backup -- I'm looking at a complete backup every couple of months followed by weekly incremental or differential backups.
4. External hard disks require USB or Firewire connectivity. My Linux box doesn't have working Firewire, and USB1 is dog slow.
5. Hard disks take up quite a lot of space -- they'd be hard to drop into a Jiffy bag and post to my Mum (for offsite storage), for example.

Currently, I'm leaning towards dropping the money on an Exabyte VXA2 drive and a stack of tapes.

Any suggestions?
_________________________
-- roger

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#254181 - 14/04/2005 13:50 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
About how much data are you looking at? Do you use any specific backup software?
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#254182 - 14/04/2005 13:56 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
Any suggestions?

DVD writer with auto-feeder? That particular one seems geared to making multiple copies of the same DVD, but as it's all PC-driven it might also be capable of multi-disc sets. And at £400 plus the price of DVD media, it pisses on VXA for price, and probably reliability too.

Ironically if you go to Stordigital's own website to try and find out about multi-disc sets, you currently get a message saying "Not enough storage is available to complete this operation"

Currently I use a big winchester here at work which I top up with a Carbon's worth of data at a time when there's lots of new stuff, or otherwise keep topped-up with rsync. For stuff that I don't want in cleartext on a winchester at work, I use duplicity.

Peter

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#254183 - 14/04/2005 14:02 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: peter]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Currently I use a big winchester here at work


Which is what I did at empeg, but my current employer is probably less likely to allow this kind of thing.
_________________________
-- roger

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#254184 - 14/04/2005 14:06 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
Which is what I did at empeg, but my current employer is probably less likely to allow this kind of thing.

You could find someone else with broadband and an always-on PC and arrange to trade disk space. (Not me, sorry, as my PC isn't always on.)

Peter

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#254185 - 14/04/2005 14:29 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: peter]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Either that, or (if you have Gigabit ethernet) you could use some kind of network attached storage locally.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#254186 - 14/04/2005 14:31 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
The Buffalo Technologies Terrastation has gotten some decent reviews. Gigabit ethernet, RAID 5, about $1,000, not to mention the sizes 0.6, 1.0 or 1.6 TB. It's gotten some good reviews recently as well.

-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?

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#254187 - 14/04/2005 14:33 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: pgrzelak]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
network attached storage locally.


I was hoping for a solution which would allow periodic off-site backup, so that's out.
_________________________
-- roger

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#254188 - 14/04/2005 14:40 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Buy two and swap 'em out?
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Bitt Faulk

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#254189 - 14/04/2005 14:41 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
You could use a USB HD to copy data off the Buffalo device, that way you'd have local and offsite data options for only the incremental cost of the USB2 HD. I personally hate tape - it's slow, forces you to do more work to backup/restore, tape heads get dusty & have errors. "Tape drives, oh how I hate you, let me count the ways!"

-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?

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#254190 - 14/04/2005 14:42 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Ezekiel]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
My problem with extra hard drives is that I'm always drawn to use backup hard drives as futher mainline storage. Can't do that with tapes.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#254191 - 14/04/2005 14:45 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Ezekiel]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
The Buffalo Technologies


I should have been clearer -- as I pointed out to Paul's reply -- I'm not looking for SAN or NAS solutions -- there's about 1TB already in my Linux box, and I don't need any more. What I'm looking for is a good way to back it all up.

Now, at the moment, there's only about 150Gb used, but when I finish ripping my music collection, there'll be about 600Gb. When I get my MythTV box working, this'll go up, and then I'll start looking at NAS.

So, I'm looking at an initial backup of around 200Gb, right now. This'll go up by about 10Mb a day for email, and about 20Gb a week, as I rip more CDs. The music collection is relatively static, but there will definitely be bouts of tagging involved -- I'm not quite as good at doing it up front as some people.

More downsides to disks in removable trays is that:
1. I'd have to purchase enough trays, and then spend time with a screwdriver.
2. I've been looking around, and can't find a suitable external, removable, SATA drive enclosure.

So, I'm still leaning towards the external SCSI tape drive option.
_________________________
-- roger

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#254192 - 14/04/2005 14:59 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Although, to be fair, for £600, I could just get 5 LaCie 160Gb external firewire drives, and a PCI firewire card (although I think I've actually got one of these in the attic already)...
_________________________
-- roger

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#254193 - 14/04/2005 15:28 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Do you want to have a "history"? i.e. do you want to go and pull a file out that you deleted a month ago?

Or do you just want a backup of the current machine as it is in case a disk dies?
_________________________
Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#254194 - 14/04/2005 15:49 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Based on a quick compare, it looks like VXA2 is probably your price performer. Assuming you want to back up one TB, and assuming you actually get full compression on the tapes, VXA2 is your best bet. In US prices, it comes in a little under AIT2 and DLT4 and significantly under LTO1 and AIT3. (And way below LTO2 and SDLT320.)

In each of those jumps, you get a jump in tape capacity. Basically 80GB vs. 200GB vs. 400GB. This means that you have to swap tapes less often. Obviously.

I did stumble upon a 10-tape VXA2 library for about $1890, which seems like a good deal. That's only three times the cost of a single drive, is external to boot, and raises your drive capacity to 800GB, which means a lot more unattended backup.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#254195 - 14/04/2005 16:44 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: peter]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

You could find someone else with broadband and an always-on PC and arrange to trade disk space. (Not me, sorry, as my PC isn't always on.)



Yeah, that is what I do. In exchange for providing occasional IT support I get to install my silent mini-itx backup server in a friend's home office.

You do need to find a friend who has unmetered ADSL, or at least unmetered over night.

Which reminds me, my mini-itx box is still sitting here with me after a disk replacement, rather than being offsite. Doh !
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#254196 - 14/04/2005 18:45 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: Roger]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Blow 50 quid on a new mobo with USB2 ports, and then just use REALLY BIG IDE drives in external USB2 enclosures. Cheap, and very very fast.

-ml

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#254197 - 14/04/2005 18:46 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: mlord]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Or alternatively, blow 20 qiud on a USB2 PCI card.

Cheers

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#254198 - 14/04/2005 19:22 Re: Backup Solutions [Re: mlord]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
USB2 enclosures really is the way to go. LaCie is the way to go only if you think five minutes with a screwdriver is worth $50.

XE says your 600£ tape drive works out to $1128 in us dollars. Newegg will then exchange those us dollars for 6.79 250GB drives and USB2.0 enclosures. 1.5TB of offline storage. Perfect for two backup of your 600GB raid array. You then setup a USB2.0 hub with three cables and three power supplys, velcro them together so they're all the right length. When it's time to backup, plug your three drives in and run a full backup.

Keep your last drive online for incremental backups, copying a new copy of every updated file to it every night. Then you've got daily roll back for quite a few days, and two compleet backups, which assuming you do them twice a month gets you quite a ways back.

Where tape really excels is when you want to be able to roll back arbitrarily. If you've got accounting data or anything else that needs to be auditable, proper yearly/monthly/weekly/daily rotations can be priceless.

all this coming from the person who "backs up" by upgrading laptops and keeping the old 2.5inch drive after I copy all my files to the new computer. Great roll back, really expensive to keep up to date though.

Matthew

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