#260679 - 18/07/2005 14:52
Wonka Lyrics
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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It's been about 30 years since I read the book. Did the Burton/Elfman version use the lyrics for the oompa loompa songs verbatim (or mostly verbatim)?
Can't seem to glean this information from the reviews.
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#260680 - 18/07/2005 15:58
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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I've checked my copy and from what I remember of the new movie, it appears he did.
I loved that movie. I may have to go see it again, I think I missed a lot.
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#260681 - 18/07/2005 16:02
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I dug through the official movie website, and found the "Production Notes" section. It's a flash site so I couldn't search it for the word "Lyrics", but if you read down the production notes far enough, you get the following text: Quote:
For the song's lyrics, Elfman went directly to the book. "I wanted to stay as true to Roald Dahl's words as possible. In the book, they were written more like extended chants than songs, but his lyrics already had a wonderful rhythm to them. In the end, I had to do a lot of editing, but I think I was 95% true to the book, with just a bit of tweaking here and there."
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#260682 - 18/07/2005 16:15
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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Now that I've bothered to dig up the book, I may as well re-read it. I don't seem to remember Wonka being ever so slightly repulsed by the children as he appears to be in this movie. Besides, it's only like 100 pages, I should be able to get through it in about 2 hours. <paranoid skeptic> I wonder if they made any changes to the new copy of the book my friend's kid has with the moviefied cover. I wouldn't put it past them. Dahl is dead and can't bitch about it. </paranoia>
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#260683 - 18/07/2005 16:22
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Okay, next questions:  1. In the 70's version, Veruca Salt meets her end in a room full of geese. In the Burton version, it's in a room full of squirrels. Which of the two was the one from the book, if either? (Personally, I loved the squirrels. A completely brialliant set piece, with the differences between the live squirrels, the animatronic squirrels, and the CG squirrels being completely undetectable to me.) 2. In the 70's version, the primary theme of the story is the morality play about being honest and not selling out, with the kids all spying for Slugworth. The Burton film does away with that theme, and instead goes for the theme of "Your family is the most important thing." Which, if either, of those themes is the one from the book?
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#260684 - 18/07/2005 16:32
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
2. In the 70's version, the primary theme of the story is the morality play about being honest and not selling out, with the kids all spying for Slugworth. The Burton film does away with that theme, and instead goes for the theme of "Your family is the most important thing." Which, if either, of those themes is the one from the book?
Wow- I didn't ever pick up on that theme from the original movie- I thought the lesson was: "Don't be a snotty brat"
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#260685 - 18/07/2005 16:55
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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Quote:
1. In the 70's version, Veruca Salt meets her end in a room full of geese. In the Burton version, it's in a room full of squirrels. Which of the two was the one from the book, if either?
Squirrels.
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2. In the 70's version, the primary theme of the story is the morality play about being honest and not selling out, with the kids all spying for Slugworth. The Burton film does away with that theme, and instead goes for the theme of "Your family is the most important thing." Which, if either, of those themes is the one from the book?
Unless someone else gets it before me, get back to me this evening. Only reference to spies is made quite early in the new movie when grandpa joe mentions he used to work in the wonka factory.
BTW, how inb the hell do you have a kid and not have a copy of this book around the house? Do you not have good night moon and where the wild things are either?
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#260686 - 18/07/2005 16:57
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Wow- I didn't ever pick up on that theme from the original movie- I thought the lesson was: "Don't be a snotty brat"
Yes, that theme was common between both the 70's movie and the Burton movie. And that was, of course, true to the book.
But if you'll recall, in the 70's film, the reason Wonka finally offered Charlie the factory wasn't because he'd merely survived until the end of the tour. It was because he handed back the prototype gobstopper. Remember, Gene wilder did that great scene at the end where he was completely manic and angry at Charlie and Grandpa Joe, screaming at them about how they broke the contract they signed? And then Charlie quietly hands him the gobstopper, and everything changes?
Anyway, the Burton film has none of that. There's some exposition about past spying on Wonka's recipies, but it's not a central theme like it was in the 70's film. And there's no Slugworth. When I saw Christopher Lee's name in the opening credits, I thought he would be Slugworth, but he plays a totally different role.
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#260687 - 18/07/2005 17:00
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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BTW, how in the hell do you have a kid and not have a copy of this book around the house? Do you not have good night moon and where the wild things are either?
Goodnight Moon and Where the Wild Things Are we definitely owned. I believe she read Chocolate Factory from the school library.
That's cool that the squirrels were from the book. Was a fantastic scene.
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#260688 - 18/07/2005 18:42
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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Done reading, fed and showered, here goes. I may ruin things for those who haven't seen the movie after this point, so I'm gonna leave the obligatory large space. And here it is.Sure you wanna see this? You've got one last chance to stop reading here.2. In the 70's version, the primary theme of the story is the morality play about being honest and not selling out, with the kids all spying for Slugworth. The Burton film does away with that theme, and instead goes for the theme of "Your family is the most important thing." Which, if either, of those themes is the one from the book? Neither. Good things come to those who aren't insufferable brats is what I got from the book. There is no slugworth in the book, no returning of the everlasting gobstopper, nada. Neither is there any question of Charlie's family not coming along into the factory at the end. The book ending involves charlie crashing through the bucket home, and putting the old folks bed into the glass elevator with him. Other things I noticed different from the book and the movies. I missed the first 3-5 minutes, as well as Violet Beauregarde's demise (got up when the pink boat came on screen, returned when they were just entering the nut room.
- The Indian prince who comissioned Wonka to build him a chocolate palace was in neither film.
- Grandpa Joe mentions working in the Wonka factory in the second movie, but not in the first, nor in the book.
- In the book, Mr Bucket loses his job at the toothpaste factory due to it going out of business, not automation. I do not recall Mr Burcket even being in the first movie (which I saw many times, and every since on of them under the influence of drugs, so I'm not the best reference on it. I could be wrong on this.)
- There isn't much description, if any, of the severity of the starvation Charlie and his family endured after Mr Bucket lost his job in either of the movies.
- Charlie finds the golden ticket in the second bar of chocolate he buys, not the first, nor in the street (is that how he finds it in the first one?). He never considers selling it in the book as he does in the second movie.
- The speech off the cue cards Wonka reads in the second film is mostly printed on the golden ticket. And in the book, it allows the child to bring one or two members of their family.
- It was cold with snow on the ground when they entered the factory in the book. Kept in film two, changed in the original.
- Everyone but Charlie brought both parents.
- In the book, Willy is described as wearing a black top hat, plum velvet tailcoat, bottle green trousers and pearl gray gloves. Neither film gets this completely right.
- The first movie was closer to the book during the entrance to the factory scene, but the whole exploding musical wax dolls was a really cool addition.
- Mrs Salt is the grography teacher, not Mr Teavee (film 2) or Mrs Beauregarde (film 1).
- In the book, the Oopma-Loopmas are described as being dressed in their native deerskin garments at all times.
- After the restretching of Mike Teavee, Wonka mentions fattening him back up with Supervitamin Candy. I don't recall metion of this in either film.
- Augustus leaves the factory thinner in the book due to being squeezed in the pipe.
Interesting observation which may or may not be of any relevance, could just be an odd coincidence. The Russian forger in the book is named Charlotte Russe. I noticed a chain of womens clothing stores by this name in malls (Never went into one, I could smell the cheap coming out of the doors and from the window display, it looks at least 10 years too young for me.) Just struck me as wierd.
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#260689 - 18/07/2005 19:21
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Interesting observations. The first one, however, is what you missed at the beginning of the second movie. Are you sure you only missed five minutes?
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Matt
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#260690 - 18/07/2005 19:27
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
The Russian forger in the book is named Charlotte Russe. I noticed a chain of womens clothing stores by this name in malls (Never went into one, I could smell the cheap coming out of the doors and from the window display, it looks at least 10 years too young for me.) Just struck me as wierd.
Charlotte russe is a classic dessert from high French cookery, one version of which is made with chocolate; the character in the book is probably named after the dessert, but that doesn't help with the clothes shops.
Peter
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#260691 - 18/07/2005 19:52
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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There is no slugworth in the book, no returning of the everlasting gobstopper, nada.
Ah, cool. So in other words, Burton was being true to the book more than the first film was.
An aside regarding the first film: It may or may not have been as true to the book as the Burton film, however it did carry Roald Dahl's name as one of the screenwriters. I have to believe that where the 70's film differed from the original book, it did so with at least some of Dahl's permission, or even did so by his hand. It's one of my favorite films, mostly on the strength of Wilder's performance, and I'm fascinated by the similarities and differences between it and the Burton film.
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Neither is there any question of Charlie's family not coming along into the factory at the end. The book ending involves charlie crashing through the bucket home, and putting the old folks bed into the glass elevator with him.
Yeah, my first two thoughts when seeing the glass elevator in the Burton film were:
1. Wow, cool! It looks just like it did in the book!
2. Except... wait... it's too small to fit the bed at the end. I'll bet we don't get the bed going into the elevator at the end.
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The Indian prince who comissioned Wonka to build him a chocolate palace was in neither film.
As Dignan said, that was one of the things you missed.
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I do not recall Mr Burcket even being in the first movie
I don't, either, so yeah, another way that the Burton film was truer to the book.
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(which I saw many times, and every since on of them under the influence of drugs, so I'm not the best reference on it. I could be wrong on this.)
Hey, there's a thought. That film would be rather cool to watch under the influence. That, and Oz.*
(* I've done "The Wall", too creepy to watch under the influence.)
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Charlie finds the golden ticket in the second bar of chocolate he buys, not the first, nor in the street (is that how he finds it in the first one?).
In the first film, he sees the glint of a coin through a sewer grate, and must retrieve it to get the money to buy the winning wonka bar.
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In the book, Willy is described as wearing a black top hat, plum velvet tailcoat, bottle green trousers and pearl gray gloves. Neither film gets this completely right.
I do like the blue gloves in the second film, with the dentist father connection being made.
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The first movie was closer to the book during the entrance to the factory scene, but the whole exploding musical wax dolls was a really cool addition.
Agreed. I liked Wonka's entrance in both films, I thought the whole melting doll thing was awesome. And the callback joke made to it later in the film.
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In the book, the Oopma-Loopmas are described as being dressed in their native deerskin garments at all times.
Yeah, I remember that. I liked what they did with them this time, with the stylistic stuff they did for the musical numbers. And having them be all the same actor: Brilliant. Except wherever he had to speak or sing solo, the vocal lip synching and pitch trickery made the words feel disconnected from the actor. Still, I enjoyed it.
All in all, a great film. I especially liked places where they paid homage to the first film, or deliberately played upon our suspension of disbelief. For instance, Mike Teavee saying, "You idiot, you've just invented the teleport, the most important invention in the history of mankind!". Or the oompa-loompa lyrics tipping off that they knew what was going to happen, that the accidents were planned. "I'mprovisation is a trick. Anyone can do it." Loved that stuff, ate it up.
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#260692 - 19/07/2005 01:38
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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The first one, however, is what you missed at the beginning of the second movie. Are you sure you only missed five minutes?
I guess the White Plains IMAX starts the movie at the time printed on the ticket then. I would have sworn it was between 12:40 and 12:45 when we walked into the theatre, but between the three cosmos (to get me through the sea of shrieking snotminers to my harry potter book), the endorphins and the pain, I could be wrong.
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Hey, there's a thought. That film would be rather cool to watch under the influence. That, and Oz.*
(* I've done "The Wall", too creepy to watch under the influence.)
I saw basically 1989 - late 2000 under the influence of one thing or another if I wasn't behind the wheel of a car. Sobreity was waaaayyy creepier in the beginning than anything I'd watched , real or staged (including those three films).
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but that doesn't help with the clothes shops
No, instantly making that connection just proves I've spent too much of my time unemployed shopping.
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#260693 - 19/07/2005 10:43
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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to get me through the sea of shrieking snotminers
ROFL 
Do you have a carefully managed list somewhere, and check one off each time you use it on the BBS?
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#260694 - 27/07/2005 05:41
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Hi all, Wanted to post a note here since I saw this film, but been busy and didn't get a chance til now. The 71 version of this film to me is classic, and I have been ringing my hands that Burton would pull this re-make off. I TRIED SO HARD to enjoy it, but found myself getting annoyed and pissed off by one major thing... Depp just completely blew it for me. What the hell was that performance? A friend told me that he took inspiration from Michael Jackson, but I'm not sure I really see that - 'cept for the straight hair and child-like simpleton speech patterns... Wilder's Wonka was complex, interesting, dark, excited, brooding, and light-hearted. Depp's was just goofy and cheese-ball. I normally like his performances, but this one was a stinker, IMHO. I did enjoy some stuff. To me, Danny Elfman is god, and his soundtrack was superb. He sang several of the Oompa Loompa songs, which was a treat for me. I've been a Boingo/Elfman/mkotob fan forever, and haven't heard Danny sing since the last Boingo show in Vegas... So that was worth the price of admission for me. The Oompa's were pretty entertaining too. The kids/parents were suitably bizzare and bratty. I was kinda disappointed that we didn't hear some of the best songs from the 71 movie like Candyman or I've Got A Golden Ticket, but to be honest, it's probably best that they didn't try to recreate those as I'd probably not have liked that either. In the end, IMO, Burton has forever marred another classic movie. Did you guys see Burton in the HBO making of show for Charlie? He isn't looking too good these days either. The opinions expressed in this rambling message are my own. I know most people don't agree with these opinions, but they are mine, and all mine.  - Jon
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#260695 - 27/07/2005 11:31
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: jbauer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Depp just completely blew it for me. What the hell was that performance? A friend told me that he took inspiration from Michael Jackson
That's what everyone is saying and I think it's getting annoying. I've heard the lamest connections for why people think that ("well, Depp's last movie was Finding Neverland, and Michael Jackson lives at Neverland Ranch and models himself after Peter Pan...so that must be who he's trying to be in this film!"). Why can't people see that he's just trying to create a strange and unique performance? It's become a game of "lets see which famous person he's trying to bring to this eccentric character!" I thought it was wonderful and there were so many subtley weird moments to his performance.
The other side of it is that you're comparing him to Wilder's performance unfairly. Everyone, Depp included, knew that Depp couldn't attempt to mimic or recreate Wilder's Wonka. He tried to go in a different direction, and I admire him for taking the risk. It's unfortunate that everyone seems to hate it...
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I did enjoy some stuff. To me, Danny Elfman is god
Gotta love Mr Elfman. He gets knocked by the critics sometimes, but few composers are as entertaining and/or instantly recognizable.
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The kids/parents were suitably bizzare and bratty.
If I hadn't seen her in other things (like The Tick) or if she didn't have an imdb profile, I would have thought Mrs. Beauregarde was a robot or CG. She was wonderful!
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In the end, IMO, Burton has forever marred another classic movie.
Why? Just because of Depp's performance? Besides, wouldn't that be Depp's fault, not Burton's? I didn't see anything in your post that speaks ill of Burton's treatment of the story, aside from a lack of songs which I don't believe were in the original story anyway, so they'd be strange in this movie.
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Did you guys see Burton in the HBO making of show for Charlie? He isn't looking too good these days either.
Tim Burton, at some point, has looked good? 
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Matt
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#260696 - 27/07/2005 12:27
Re: Wonka Lyrics
[Re: Dignan]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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In the end, IMO, Burton has forever marred another classic movie.
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Why? Just because of Depp's performance? Besides, wouldn't that be Depp's fault, not Burton's? I didn't see anything in your post that speaks ill of Burton's treatment of the story, aside from a lack of songs which I don't believe were in the original story anyway, so they'd be strange in this movie.
He allowed Depp to play the character of Willy Wonka like a damned foolio. Crime enough for me! I was completely annoyed by it through the movie. I can't believe most people weren't.
- Jon
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