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#279784 - 22/04/2006 23:17 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: Robotic]
mbcouple
new poster

Registered: 18/04/2006
Posts: 26
I will do some testing at the next competition i attend with some of the trained judges if i can get them to comply. Lame was a great advancement for lossy formats, and i use it on my portable players. I know this topic is a can of worms, and there is argument for both cases. I guess the best thing to do would be admit i want lossless whether i need it or not, and would like to know if the empeg can do it, or if i should stick to the rockbox modded i-river h120 for now.
Thanks
Hans

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#279785 - 23/04/2006 01:43 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: mbcouple]
TigerJimmy
old hand

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
Quote:
When your ribbons dont start rolling off till 40k and have usable responce to 60k, you want the recording to hold up.


I think this is extremely misguided, and suggests a lack of understanding of how digital music works. The original CD that you get your "lossless" files from has a sampling rate of 44kHz. As such, it can only reasonably represent frequencies in the original recording up to about 22kHz (google the Nyquist theorem). Even at 22kHz, it won't have much fidelity. In other words, your speakers do NOT have "reasonable response" to 60kHz, because they are limited by other parts of the system (the source). Its silly to have speakers that are flat out to 60kHz because the source is only good up to something less than 22kHz. In fact, you could argue that you may even want to filter anything above the Nyquist rate, as it is probably extremely noisy. This is OK, however, because human hearing is typically considered to extend only to 20kHz. For that matter, any sampling noise is probably inaudible too.

If you want to acoustically represent something that comes out of a signal generator (rather than a CD), and is considerably beyond the range of human hearing, then fine. But it ain't about the music. In fact, it ain't about the "sound" either, because "sound" is the human perception of air resonating up to about 20kHz. Oh, and if you're going to do that with the idea that you are going for accuracy, then you don't have tubes in the circuit. "Color" is another word for "distortion".

That's why I'm an engineer, I suppose. I think those practical considerations are the whole point. If you want to rub money on it for the sake of "bragging rights", that's cool. I guess we have different world views, is all

Jim

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#279786 - 24/04/2006 03:11 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: hybrid8]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
You won't be able to tell the difference between a really well encoded MP3 and the same song as FLAC.

Agreed.

I have a reasonably high-end system installed in my car, and when people deride me for playing those awful-sounding lossy MP3 files, I sit them in the car and play a special demo file I have prepared: a track from one of the IASCA competition disks, repeated six times, three times as a .wav file, three times as an MP3, random shuffled.

So far NOBODY has been able to reliably tell which was which.

tanstaafl.

ooops, sorry Bitt -- nobody has been able to tell reliably which was which.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#279787 - 24/04/2006 03:56 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: tanstaafl.]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
You Bitted yourself. I've heard you can go blind doing that.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#279788 - 24/04/2006 13:52 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: mbcouple]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
Early mp3 rolled off way to early to compress the files.

Well, yeah, the highend rolloff was set by certain encoders to be kinda low. But that has nothing to do with mp3 itself. That's like complaining that Jimi Hendrix is a terrible guitarist because he can't produce a good sound on that guitar you found in your attic that's been sitting there since 1943 when your great-grandfather bought it from the Sears catalog for 99¢.

In addition, it was only the default setting, at least for LAME. You could always change it, at least as far back as I can remember.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#279789 - 24/04/2006 22:26 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: tfabris]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
You Bitted yourself. I've heard you can go blind doing that.


Naahh, I'll just do it until I need glasses.

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#279790 - 25/04/2006 07:20 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: tanstaafl.]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
I thought you already had glasses?
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

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#279791 - 26/04/2006 02:32 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: schofiel]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
'til he needs thicker glasses?

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#279792 - 25/05/2006 13:02 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: hybrid8]
jv8
new poster

Registered: 01/12/2003
Posts: 11
Quote:
You won't be able to tell the difference between a really well encoded MP3 and the same song as FLAC.


Maybe so... but it sure is a hassle trying to figure out how to create a "really well encoded MP3". I've encoded my music library 3 times now and I can still tell the difference between a CD and my 320kbps EAC/LAME encoding. I use empeg w/ SPDIF out into a fairly high-end system. With FLAC I'd just be done with it once and for all... storage is cheap these days. Plus I could use the same files for home and car.

Regarding the "noisy" car environment where everybody seems to think mp3 distortion should be tolerated... here's my problem: road noise tends to be lower frequency. Audio compression artifacts tend to be very high frequency. My car audio system response is flat to 20KHz. I can be driving 80mph with the windows open and the music bass will disappear but I will still hear the high freq mp3 errors!

So to me they are compounded errors - I now hear road noise PLUS compression artifacts. I choose to fight both as much as possible.

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#279793 - 25/05/2006 13:10 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: jv8]
mbcouple
new poster

Registered: 18/04/2006
Posts: 26
If you look a couple posts down, i did get flac to playback. It took some small changes to the config file forcing the drives to stay spinning at all times. Playback quality was excellent. Playing FLAC files made with EAC was as good as my reference transport for the car.
Thanks
Hans

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#279794 - 25/05/2006 13:20 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: jv8]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
I've encoded my music library 3 times now and I can still tell the difference between a CD and my 320kbps EAC/LAME encoding.


Well, then, you've got good ears. My first suggestion is to follow mbcouple's tips for getting FLAC to work properly on the empeg. My alternative suggestion is simply to turn the volume up. After a couple of months, you'll no longer be able to spot the difference. It worked for me
_________________________
-- roger

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#279795 - 25/05/2006 13:37 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: Roger]
jv8
new poster

Registered: 01/12/2003
Posts: 11
Quote:
Quote:
I've encoded my music library 3 times now and I can still tell the difference between a CD and my 320kbps EAC/LAME encoding.


Well, then, you've got good ears.


Don't get me wrong... 320kbps EAC/LAME sounds very good! In fact, probably good enough. But if I quit now, what would I tinker with? It's an obsession.

Another thing that drives my car audio obsession is the fact that my commute is about the only chance I get to listen to music. Once our first child arrived, life at home became too hectic.

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#279796 - 25/05/2006 17:44 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: jv8]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Regarding the "noisy" car environment where everybody seems to think mp3 distortion should be tolerated... here's my problem: road noise tends to be lower frequency. Audio compression artifacts tend to be very high frequency. (...) So to me they are compounded errors - I now hear road noise PLUS compression artifacts. I choose to fight both as much as possible.

Well spoken, sir. Agreed.

Quote:
but it sure is a hassle trying to figure out how to create a "really well encoded MP3".

Not as much of a hassle as trying to get FLAC to work reliably under alpha firmware on a player that was designed from the beginning to tolerate the data rate of MP3s.

Just use EAC/LAME and set LAME to its highest possible VBR and quality settings. Or heck, just do 320k CBR MP3s. You'll still use significantly less disk space and cache RAM than FLAC would.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#279797 - 06/01/2007 19:10 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: mbcouple]
Gleep
member

Registered: 09/03/2003
Posts: 121
Loc: Iowa
Quote:
If you look a couple posts down, i did get flac to playback. It took some small changes to the config file forcing the drives to stay spinning at all times.


Instead of having the drives spin all the time would it be possible to have a third party app (HiJack for example) monitor the music application buffer and spin up the drives just before the music app needs them? I assume the problem is something like this: the music app waits till the buffer get down to x% and then refills it, but with flac using up the buffer so much faster it gets exhausted before the drives can spin up and refill the buffer. If x were say 5%, if something spun up the drives at say 7%, by the time the music app tried to read from the drives to refill the buffer, the drives would already be spinning and yet could still be spun down as much as possible.

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#279798 - 06/01/2007 20:13 Re: Current *working* lossless options? [Re: Gleep]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
In theory, that's what the V3 alpha code is supposed to do all by itself with no outside help.
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Tony Fabris

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