I need someone who meets the following requirements:

- Is an audiophile with good ears.
- Owns a high-quality consumer CD player and sound system, preferably of audiophile-grade. System can be car or home, doesn't matter.
- Owns a copy of the 1989 Rush album "Presto".

Something about my MP3 collection has been nagging me for a long time, and I'd like your help:

Some of the songs in my collection have very irritating artifacts in the high frequencies. Specifically, certain cymbals such as ride cymbals seem to induce this problem. It is a random modulation of the sound of the cymbals, giving them a sort of distorted, crackly sound instead of a smooth sound.

In many cases, this problem seems to be present on the original recordings, and isn't necessarily a function of the rip or the MP3 encoder. But since I'm listening to the original CD on the same disk drive that I ripped the CD from, I can't be sure.

I have noticed that the problem is present only on certain songs, and only in certain moments in the songs, but I can hear the problem from all three sources: The original CD playing directly in my CD-ROM drive, the ripped WAV file, and the encoded MP3. Encoding at low bitrates tends to exacerbate the problem and accentuate it, but it's definitely present on the original CD, at least when I listen to it in the CD-ROM drive.

The thing is, until I got the MP3 player and started listening critically, I never noticed this problem. It might be because I just wasn't paying attention to the high frequencies. Or it might have been something about the way my car CD player handled the playback and the problem really wasn't there to begin with. I don't know if it's a jitter issue, or a high-frequency noise issue, an EQ issue, or what. I just don't have a high-quality consumer CD player hooked up anymore so I can't check.

So. If you've got "Presto", could you please listen closely to the ride cymbals at the beginning of Track 2: "Chain Lightning". Most notably, around 0:12, 1:03, and 1:32. Do you hear the same distortion that I do?

I'm only using this song as one specific, testable example. There are many others in my collection which sound this way. And what I find interesting is that it's only on certain moments of the recording that I hear it. Other areas of the recording, even the ride cymbals, don't have the problem.

I'd just chalk it up to bad recording, perhaps overdriven mics on the cymbals, except that it sounds like a digital artifact and it seems to happen to a lot of varied CD recordings.

Anyone?

___________
Tony Fabris

Tony,
What encoder are you using? Bit rates? I just gave Chain Lightning a listen on a Rio Volt and on the home harmon/kardon HK7500 single bit converter CD player and w/ & w/o phones and didn't hear either place. I'll try to rip it and give it some additional listening to it tomorrow.

Tim

What encoder are you using? Bit rates?

Actually, I tried a few different encoders at lots of different bit rates, but I really noticed that the problem seems to be present on the original CD when I listen to it on a CD player. However, I have no way of knowing whether I'm hearing a jitter problem from bad DACs or what, since all I've got hooked up now is my CD-ROM drives.

The problem I'm describing is a subtle one. It's not an obvious thing. It's more like a slight irritation. It's like the cymbals are going from the originally intended "smooth splashes" to some sort of not-so-perfect approximation of smoothness.

The HK system you described sounds like the proper test platform. Listen again at those time indices I mentioned, and compare the sounds of the ride cymbals at those moments with the sounds of the ride cymbals throughout the rest of the song. Do they sound harsh or slightly distorted to you, as compared with the rest of the song?

___________
Tony Fabris

Hmm. I had a listen on a cheap CD Boom Box, and the problem wasn't as pronounced. Maybe it does have something to do with different DACs...

Still, I think I noticed something else. It was like the cymbal sounds were getting "interrupted" by the other instruments. For instance, when the vocal hits a partcular bit of sibilance at the right moment, that's when the cymbals seemed to crackle and modulate a little bit. I wonder if I'm hearing a limitation of the original mixing equipment, or perhaps a problem with transient response with my headphones/speakers/amplifiers?

___________
Tony Fabris

More likely, the microphone used to do the recording was just not up to scratch. You can hear similar problems on Roxy Music's "Avalon", Zep's "Stairway".

DAC jitter would affect all frequencies and the music would sound appalling. THis is quite unmistakeable. It is more likely that if you are hearing distortion in one frequency range only, then it is recording or the equipment used to play it back. Given the sampling frequency required for CD (44.1 kHz), I would be immediately holding the recording equipment suspect. You mention this "interruption" - a pretty classic sign of a mike distorting due to a sound pressure overload.

You should also note that any DAC needs output filters; you could build two output stages using the same DAC and it would sound entirely different, even through the same speakers - it would depend on the competency of the output stage design and component choice.

If you need and objective ear, I would recommend Henno who also has the most incredible Audio system I have seen in many a year, and one of the largest CD collections I have encountered. Henno?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I've had the same experience, some tracks that just have bad garbage in the high frequency range. but normaly when I play it on my home system, it sounds crystal clear. I'm using an apex 600, with coax digital to my yamaha 995a, EQ bypass, and effects processor off. so I know I'm not filtering anything.

like someone posted in another thread about a problem with a certin track just not riping well on his CD-ROM, (loss of stereo image) but playing fine on a cheap $50 portable.

I don't have the CD in question, and I don't know anyone with a huge CD collection :(

actualy, i take that back.. I know someone with a huge mp3 collection.. I'll search his database, he rips everything at 256cbr I belive.

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

actualy, i take that back.. I know someone with a huge mp3 collection.. I'll search his database, he rips everything at 256cbr I belive.

That's nice, except I'm looking for ears on the original CD through a consumer CD player, not MP3. I want to be sure that I'm hearing something on the original recording. More importantly, I want to know if the brand of CD player and its output stages has anything to do with it.


___________
Tony Fabris

Can you name specific time indices on "Avalon" for me?

___________
Tony Fabris

Another example. I just got a copy of Eric Johnson's "Venus Isle" in the mail from Amazon. Track 4: "s.r.v" opens with a ride cymbal that displays exactly the problem I'm complaining about, and in a more obvious way (it's not as subtle as the Rush track). And I haven't even ripped this thing yet, I'm just listening to it on my CD drive in my computer. Anyone have that one?

___________
Tony Fabris

well, he should be able to make me a wav file of the original, if he has the CD. I sent him email about it.

or if I'm lucky, he can burn me a copy

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

well, he should be able to make me a wav file of the original, if he has the CD. I sent him email about it. or if I'm lucky, he can burn me a copy

That's going to a little bit too much trouble. But one thing I'm trying to find out is related to ripping:

If I can hear these problems when I listen to the album on my CD-ROM drive, then does that mean that the CD-ROM drive will reproduce the problems as it's ripping the audio? If I don't hear the problem on a consumer CD player, then does that prove the CD-ROM drive is at fault?

If you listen from this guy's WAV files, then he's got a ripper somewhere in the equation, too, and that's not what I'm after.


___________
Tony Fabris

Tony,
have you tried "Exact Audio Copy" and if yes, what did it report after ripping? 100% OK?

Frank van Gestel

EAC does not work properly on my drives/systems.

I have tried three different rippers: WinDAC32, AudioCatalyst, and EZ CD Creator 4, on two different disk drives. All of them produce .WAV files which sound identical (but are somehow different at the bit level, perhaps offset by a few bytes in one direction or the other).

But again, I'm just looking to confirm whether anyone hears this on an actual consumer CD player or not. If I can confirm that folks can hear it on a regular CD player, then I don't have to look any further.

___________
Tony Fabris

I know what you mean...
I also heard some strange sounds from one of my peppers CD's
After using EAC it revealed some major faults on the CD-media. Audiocatalyst reported no errors at all.
I rip all CD's now using EAC, it sometimes takes an hour or more for really bad CD's, but it is worth the effort...

Frank van Gestel

Henno?

Yeah; I've been follwoing this thread and checked my CD collection when Tony started this thread, but I don't have the Rush-Presto CD. So: I can't judge.
I *do* have the Roxy Music's Avalon; so if you can tell me where this is suppose to happen I'll listen to it carefully. As you said, if it is not in the recording itself, it could be the filters, or the DACs (or poor allignement if the system uses multiple DACs), poor power supply within the player or amp, whatever.

Let me know the Avalon timings, or hop-over and we'll both listen


Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

Hear! Hear! For EAC. That is one fine program and all I will use for ripping because I know I can trust it to make every effort to pull the data off the CD intact.

I've listened several times now for this distortion on different players but I don't find it. I will keep listening for it though...

What is the track/indices on Zep & Avalon?

Tony, have you got a test disk (such as the IASCA disk) with something on it that shows the same problem?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I do not own the IASCA disc. I probably should. That's a very good idea.

___________
Tony Fabris

Well, as a suggestion, get the IASCA 99 disk. That's one that Henno and I have access to, so we could listen and spot something.

The nice thing about that is that the disks are so well mastered I'm sure you'd be able to isolate the problem as equipment rather than the music source...

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

*BUMP*

Okay, I'm listening to the beginning of the song "Virtuality" from the Rush album "Test for Echo". Anyone have this one?

The ride cymbals at the beginning sound like crap to me. Crackly and scrunchy instead of smooth and splashy. It sounds like encoder artifacts, except that I'm listening straight from the CD.

When this same track is gets encoded into an MP3, it seems to me to accentuate this problem and bring it to the forefront. The MP3 (even at 256kCBR) makes it sound worse.

Can anyone confirm this? Remember: I'm talking CD-audio-straight-from-CD here. Anyone have this album, and a good system to listen to the high frequencies? Do you hear what I hear?

___________
Tony Fabris

Now and again you just *have* to try and increase sales on Rush albums eh Tony

- --
Rod, UK Mk2 64gig Red S/No.341 2xDell RioReceiver

Do you hear what I hear?

No.

But... I am listening to a ripped/encoded mp3 from the "original" recording, not one of the remasters. Or is there a remaster of 'Test for Echo'?

Also, I am listening through headphones connected directly to the line-outs of the empeg. Hey, wait a minute... I have my car here today. I'll go out and listen to it there. [4 minute pause] No, I still don't hear it.

But you have always noticed and been more critical of artifacts and deficiencies than I, so perhaps it is there and I'm just not hearing it?

tanstaafl.



"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

TFE is from 1996, I don't think they remastered that one. I think it's a case of "getting it right the first time".

So you don't think the cymbals at the beginning of the song sound harsh and crackly? To me, they sound like an old worn-out cassette tape where the sound is distorting and dropping out.

Perhaps it's some high-frequency distortion in the speakers that I need to correct...

___________
Tony Fabris

At this point, I would probably say it's not the CDs you're playing, since it's unlikely Eric Johnson used the same recording studio and cd master as Rush (Eric's was probably here in Austin again?)

That leaves your player, computer, or speakers.

Take those two CDs to your nearest audiophile dealer, someone who carries Classe', Theta, Meridian, etc. Go in on a weekday during the day as opposed to the weekend, this way they're not busy.

Tell them you'd like to listen to sample some nice speakers and they'll hook you up in one of their listening rooms and generally leave you alone to play around for a little while.

g

--
Rio Car (10Gig) Blue/Red Face (Looking for Tuner!)
'01 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro

That leaves your player, computer, or speakers.

I'd agree, except for one thing...

I only notice it on certain songs from certain albums, always the same ones. Whereas another album with the same kinds of sounds (crash cymbals in a certain frequency range) will sound perfectly fine to me.

Perhaps I'm being overly critical of the recording. Maybe something that's subtle to everyone else is glaringly obvious to me. Maybe my stereos emphasize a certain frequency more than others...

Okay, here's another example. There's some moments on the Incubus album "Make Yourself" that have the same problem. I was riding in a friend's Volvo (with the factory sound system). This guy is a recording engineer, so he's got good ears, too. The Incubus album is his wife's favorite and it was in the CD changer. When one of those moments came up, I pointed it out to him, and he agreed, "yeah, those cymbals sound like crap". He didn't have an explanation, either.

So if it is a problem with the playback equipment, I know it's at least not specifically my equipment.

But I also notice it when I rip the albums and encode them to MP3 and play them in my car. In that case, the problem sounds like compression artifacts and it really gets on my nerves.

If the stuff is simply "supposed to sound like that", I guess I have to accept it. But if I hear it and some other folks don't hear it, then I have to narrow down whether it's me being too critical or if the other folks are playing it on a better system. And if so, what's different about that system.

___________
Tony Fabris

I'm no audiophile but I have been very unhappy with the recording of the Incubus album. The guitar distortion and cymbal crashing are very irratating for an otherwise pleasing album. I've tried recoding at different setting and it never comes out right when listening to it in my car. I tried the CD directly and I found I wasn't real happy with that either.

Can't comment on the Rush album though.

Ah, that is exactly what I'm talking about.

The guitars sound fine to me, it's only the crash and ride cymbals that bug me. I swear that it sounds like compression artifacts, but as you discovered, when you play the CD directly, you hear the same thing.

Great album, though.

Anyway, how would you describe the sound of the cymbals? To me, they sound distorted and crackly. Sort of a kakkk kakkk kakkk instead of a splash splash splash. It's subtle, it's not obvious like a blown tweeter would be.

___________
Tony Fabris

These could all be issues with inferior recording equipment I suppose. Many CDs are D-A-D Digital recording, Analog Mixing and Digital Media (is that right?) Older albums are just AAD ... only put to digital at the end of the process.

DDD will give you better quality if they used good quality recording components.

DD will give you the best since they avoid the mixing and go straight to CD. I've only got one of these .. a Sony test CD called "Cat Tracks".

If anywhere in that chain, from the microphone to the CD burner to your player, amp, speakers, has any sort of compression, or if the component just can't take the frequency, you'll hear distortion....

If the microphone is sub par, maybe it will only hit 18Khz, but the cymbals (sp!) hit 22Khz, even though most people can't hear above 20Khz, you'll still hear it sound like crap, because it will affect audible frequencies near that range ....

Am I right? I mean I've been a critical ear for a while, but on occasion I can get a little screwed with the technicalities....

g

--
Rio Car (10Gig) Blue/Red Face (Looking for Tuner!)
'01 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro

Actually, the specific problems I'm hearing have been on all-digital recordings, mostly recent ones (recorded in the last 5-7 years). I don't notice it on analog recordings that have been transferred to CD.

The Incubus album, in particular, was recorded with a Digidesign ProTools setup.

___________
Tony Fabris