#289921 - 18/11/2006 05:40
Charitable Giving
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Anonymous
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#289922 - 18/11/2006 06:17
Re: Charitable Giving
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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To me, the hypothesis is remotely plausible. Not having any first-hand knowledge or academic study of this subject under my belt, and not knowing anything about the author, I did a search of Daily Kos to see what liberals think about the theory. I found this diary, which I think is worth a read regardless of where you are on the political spectrum because there are several posts which shine an informed, reasoned, but critical light on Brooks' views. Since the book isn't out yet, it's hard to really have a substantive discussion of its content. But, I think the following excerpts from the Kos thread above are worth considering as counterpoints: If the theory holds, here are some possible justificationsQuote:
* Progressives have a more expansive view of the community supporting social justice through taxes, and therefore view some types of charitable giving as a weak alternative * Some forms of charitable giving are much more self-interested than others: the liberal donating to NPR, the conservative donating to an activist church * The tax code (including the estate tax) creates heavier incentives for the wealthier
Some damning math on one of the more dubious claims put forth by the author
Finally, this post really crystallizes my initial impulses on this subject:
Quote:
Pretty Much Arguing by Definition
Seems the author is defining conservatives as people who think individual charity rather than reditributive government programs should support those with less income, and then saying conservatives are more likely to participate in individual charity.
He then dismisses the things which liberals may do to rally for government poverty programs, education reform, etc. as something other than charitable.
It is, in the narrow sense that I would like to see more people have an entitlement or right to basic necessities (basic sustenance, housing, medical care, education) from the government, that they should not feel beholden or grateful to me for having received these things. I don't want access to basic services to be a matter of charity.
But on the other hand, if the author is attempting to say that my feelings or my work for better government support for low income people does not reflect altruism or community feelings on my part, he's nuts.
There's much more in that thread discussing some of the merits of the theory and some of the places where it could fall apart. I'll be interested to hear how it's judged once academics (and the wanna-be academics on the Internets) have a chance to digest the material. But, if you want my initial gut feeling, it seems he's setting up the word "charity" to mean "giving that doesn't involve the government, because government is bad" and then using that definition to nail liberals. In my view, any fair redistribution of wealth from the haves to the have-nots is a helpful thing for society regardless of whether the Government facilitates it or not, so limiting "charity" to churches and NGOs is disingenuous.
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#289923 - 18/11/2006 06:30
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: tonyc]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote: But, if you want my initial gut feeling, it seems he's setting up the word "charity" to mean "giving that doesn't involve the government, because government is bad" and then using that definition to nail liberals. In my view, any fair redistribution of wealth from the haves to the have-nots is a helpful thing for society regardless of whether the Government facilitates it or not, so limiting "charity" to churches and NGOs is disingenuous.
Forcefully confiscating wealth from the productives for redistribution to the productive-nots is not charity. It's theft.
Whenever anyone feels the need to force charity, then that means the takers are more willing than the givers. And charity is an act of giving, not taking.
You, sir, are the one attempting to redefine the word "charity", in an attempt to align it with a liberal socialist agenda.
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#289924 - 18/11/2006 09:43
Re: Charitable Giving
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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In the author's own words: Quote: The conventional wisdom runs like this: Liberals are charitable because they advocate government redistribution of money in the name of social justice; conservatives are uncharitable because they oppose these policies. But note the sleight of hand: Government spending, according to this logic, is a form of charity.
Let us be clear: Government spending is not charity. It is not a voluntary sacrifice by individuals. No matter how beneficial or humane it might be, no matter how necessary it is for providing public services, it is still the obligatory redistribution of tax revenues. Because government spending is not charity, sanctimonious yard signs do not prove that the bearers are charitable or that their opponents are selfish. (On the contrary, a public attack on the integrity of those who don’t share my beliefs might more legitimately constitute evidence that I am the uncharitable one.)
To evaluate accurately the charity difference between liberals and conservatives, we must consider private, voluntary charity. How do liberals and conservatives compare in their private giving and volunteering? Beyond strident slogans and sarcastic political caricatures, what, exactly, do the data tell us?
The data tell us that the conventional wisdom is dead wrong. In most ways, political conservatives are not personally less charitable than political liberals—they are more so.
First, we must define “liberals” and “conservatives.” Most surveys ask people not just about their political party affiliation but also about their ideology. In general, about 10 percent of the population classify themselves as “very conservative”; and another 10 percent call themselves “very liberal.” About 20 percent say they are simply “liberal,” and 30 percent or so say they are “conservative.” The remaining 30 percent call themselves “moderates” or “centrists.” In this discussion, by “liberals” I mean the approximately 30 percent in the two most liberal categories, and by conservatives I mean the 40 percent or so in the two most conservative categories.
So how do liberals and conservatives compare in their charity? When it comes to giving or not giving, conservatives and liberals look a lot alike. Conservative people are a percentage point or two more likely to give money each year than liberal people, but a percentage point or so less likely to volunteer.
But this similarity fades away when we consider average dollar amounts donated. In 2000, households headed by a conservative gave, on average, 30 percent more money to charity than households headed by a liberal ($1,600 to $1,227). This discrepancy is not simply an artifact of income differences; on the contrary, liberal families earned an average of 6 percent more per year than conservative families, and conservative families gave more than liberal families within every income class, from poor to middle class to rich.
If we look at party affiliation instead of ideology, the story remains largely the same. For example, registered Republicans were seven points more likely to give at least once in 2002 than registered Democrats (90 to 83 percent).
The differences go beyond money and time. Take blood donations, for example. In 2002, conservative Americans were more likely to donate blood each year, and did so more often, than liberals. If liberals and moderates gave blood at the same rate as conservatives, the blood supply in the United States would jump by about 45 percent.
The political stereotypes break down even further when we consider age: “Anyone who is not a socialist before age thirty has no heart, but anyone who is still a socialist after thirty has no head,” goes the old saying. And so we imagine crusty right-wing grandfathers socking their money away in trust funds while their liberal grandchildren work in soup kitchens and save the whales. But young liberals—perhaps the most vocally dissatisfied political constituency in America today—are one of the least generous demographic groups out there. In 2004, self-described liberals younger than thirty belonged to one-third fewer organizations in their communities than young conservatives. In 2002, they were 12 percent less likely to give money to charities, and one-third less likely to give blood. Liberal young Americans in 2004 were also significantly less likely than the young conservatives to express a willingness to sacrifice for their loved ones: A lower percentage said they would prefer to suffer than let a loved one suffer, that they are not happy unless the loved one is happy, or that they would sacrifice their own wishes for those they love.
The compassion of American conservatives becomes even clearer when we compare the results from the 2004 U.S. presidential election to data on how states address charity. Using Internal Revenue Service data on the percentage of household income given away in each state, we can see that the red states are more charitable than the blue states. For instance, of the twenty-five states that donated a portion of household income above the national average, twenty-four gave a majority of their popular votes to George W. Bush for president; only one gave the election to John F. Kerry. Of the twenty-five states below the national giving average, seventeen went for Kerry, but just seven for Bush. In other words, the electoral map and the charity map are remarkably similar.
These results are not an artifact of close elections in key states. The average percentage of household income donated to charity in each state tracked closely with the percentage of the popular vote it gave to Mr. Bush. Among the states in which 60 percent or more voted for Bush, the average portion of income donated to charity was 3.5 percent. For states giving Mr. Bush less than 40 percent of the vote, the average was 1.9 percent. The average amount given per household from the five states combined that gave Mr. Bush the highest vote percentages in 2003 was 25 percent more than that donated by the average household in the five northeastern states that gave Bush his lowest vote percentages; and the households in these liberal-leaning states earned, on average, 38 percent more than those in the five conservative states.
People living in conservative states volunteer more than people in liberal states. In 2003, the residents of the top five “Bush states” were 51 percent more likely to volunteer than those of the bottom five, and they volunteered an average of 12 percent more total hours each year. Residents of these Republican-leaning states volunteered more than twice as much for religious organizations, but also far more for secular causes. For example, they were more than twice as likely to volunteer to help the poor.
pwn3d.
I'd like to see you atheists and socialists talk your way out of this one. Right now I'm putting on my bullshit goggles and tuning up my self-denial detector. This should be pretty amusing.
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#289925 - 18/11/2006 12:14
Re: Charitable Giving
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14497
Loc: Canada
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"How to win a (non) debate: establish a bogus premise in the opening statement, and then try and coerce everyone into narrowly debating the wording rather than being more open about the whole situation". Quote: The conventional wisdom runs like this: Liberals are charitable because they advocate government redistribution of money in the name of social justice; conservatives are uncharitable because they oppose these policies. But note the sleight of hand: Government spending, according to this logic, is a form of charity.
Okay, so charity is a very poor choice of word, but it was chosen by the author and he's now trying to get everyone else to "defend" it. Duh!
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#289926 - 18/11/2006 12:35
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: mlord]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I would say it's more of a counter-argument against socialists claiming that redistribution policies are charity. Forcefully taking someone else's hard-earned cash and spending it for them is not charitable, and it isn't right.
But anyways, you're right; nobody is really debating that, except for some of the idiots in the dailykos.com link that tony posted. Some of these goofballs are arguing that donations to churches shouldn't be counted as charitable but donations to socialist political organizations should (because it's for the "greater good"). What a bunch of delusional moonbats.
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#289927 - 18/11/2006 12:46
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I was opening the discussion up to the fact that there are other ways to help the disadvantaged. Charity is simply not enough. Without this "forced re-distribution" you speak of, the disadvantaged would not receive basic services they need. Even taxes AND charity are not enough to feed nearly 35 million Americans who can't put food on the table (whom the USDA recently reclassified as "lacking food security" to try to whitewash the problem.) If you abolished the IRS tomorrow, society would not suddenly become more benevolent at the top or middle.
I should have known better than to think you'd last more than one post without reverting to petulant flamewar mode. Enjoy the rest of your conversation with whoever decides to waste their time with you. Looking at how recent threads have evolved, I predict that number will start small and quickly become zero.
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#289928 - 18/11/2006 13:21
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: tonyc]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote: Even taxes AND charity are not enough to feed nearly 35 million Americans who can't put food on the table (whom the USDA recently reclassified as "lacking food security" to try to whitewash the problem.)
Um, I think you're trying to blackwash it. Nobody starves to death in the USA, except for perhaps anorexics. And I challenge you to find one obituary from the last 50 years stating the opposite. There is no hunger in our great capitalist society. If you want to see hunger, take a time machine to communist Russia, where everyone is equal. That is, equally poor.
Quote: I should have known better than to think you'd last more than one post without reverting to petulant flamewar mode.
I'm not engaging in a flamewar with you. When I called some of the people at dailykos idiots, I wasn't referring to you. I apologize if it sounded that way.
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#289929 - 18/11/2006 14:36
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4181
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote: I would say it's more of a counter-argument against socialists claiming that redistribution policies are charity.
Do some socialists really claim that? I'm a socialist, economically speaking, and I don't at all perceive (say) free health-care for all paid for by taxation as being the same thing as charity. Individual charitable donation is always going to be biased towards headline-grabbing causes and emotional appeal, whereas the welfare state stands IMO a better chance of distributing benefit according to the recipients' needs as opposed to the donor's whims. Charity is a much less effective way than welfare for improving the human condition. (How many childrens' charities, among the millions they spend looking after children obviously unwanted by their parents, spend anything on sex education or the availability of contraception or abortion?)
Quote: Forcefully taking someone else's hard-earned cash and spending it for them is not charitable, and it isn't right.
I agree it's not the same thing as charity, but I think it's still right. And these are democracies we're talking about here: if nobody in the US wanted to pay tax, they'd just have to elect the No-Taxes Party to power. In the UK, and I believe in the US too, there are both more-taxing and less-taxing political parties available on each side of the party currently in power, so it's hard to argue that these countries haven't deliberately chosen the extents of their respective welfare systems.
In palaeoanthropology, one of the few indicators that can be derived from hominid remains about the existence of civilisation, is when skeletons are found with old injuries or progressive diseases severe enough that they couldn't hunt etc. for themselves, so that other individuals must have looked after them for some time. It seems a shame that there are still modern civilised societies where some individuals do not receive that human consideration.
Peter
Edited by peter (18/11/2006 14:38)
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#289930 - 18/11/2006 21:34
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: ]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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Sorry, taxation is NOT theft. It's extortion pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#289931 - 19/11/2006 16:52
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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As has been mentioned here before, the premise of this debate (as to whether taxation and wealth redistribution are equivalent to charity) is just not very interesting. A much better question to ask is whether taxation and wealth redistribution is a net benefit or net loss for society, relative to what that money might have otherwise accomplished (charity, spending, or whatever else). When you put the question that way, you're now just arguing whether or not you support Libertarianism. I think it's fair to say that market forces, alone, are insufficient to arrive at a modern, civil society. You need redistribution of wealth to allow for everything from the military to road building. Along the same lines, it might be perfectly rational for society to create some kind of "safety net" (a.k.a., "welfare") to provide for a minimal existence, no matter what. If you lack that, then you set the stage for people with truly nothing to lose, and that, in turn, is one of the prime ingredients in a variety of societally undesirable behaviors.
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#289932 - 20/11/2006 08:26
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: tonyc]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote: petulant flamewar mode
Tony, after re-reading my "bullshit goggles" post, you're right, I was being very flamewarish. I apologize.
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#289933 - 20/11/2006 18:33
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote: Nobody starves to death in the USA, except for perhaps anorexics. And I challenge you to find one obituary from the last 50 years stating the opposite.
Something tells me that the sort of people who might starve to death in the US are not likely to be the sort of people to have obituaries written about them. If an obit saying that a person starved to death is your only acceptable criteria of "proof", then of course it's unlikely anyone will be able to meet your blatantly arbitrary standard of proof.
It's like saying that this here rock repels tigers, and I challenge you to find a tiger in sight of the rock to prove me wrong.
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#289934 - 20/11/2006 18:49
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Not to mention the fact that the US Government requires that hospitals attend to sick people regardless of their ability to pay. I'm not suggesting that there are a huge number of people out there that are likely to starve to death without the support of hospitals, but I'll bet there are a number of homeless people who have had that experience. Not that it's anything like an Ethiopian famine.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#289935 - 20/11/2006 19:17
Re: Charitable Giving
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: A much better question to ask is whether taxation and wealth redistribution is a net benefit or net loss for society, relative to what that money might have otherwise accomplished (charity, spending, or whatever else).
Agreed, though your phrasing implies that we should follow courses of actions that result in "a net gain" for society, which I don't think is a given. There is some degree of individual freedom that should not be infringed upon in an effort to provide society with the biggest net gain. Where to draw that line is the rub, though.
Quote: I think it's fair to say that market forces, alone, are insufficient to arrive at a modern, civil society.
There are many who disagree with this. I think mostly because relying on market forces alone sounds neat and simple, regardless of how much truth (or little truth, I should say) the notion contains. People like to apply simple solutions to complex problems- see Ayn Rand for a great example.
Quote: Along the same lines, it might be perfectly rational for society to create some kind of "safety net" (a.k.a., "welfare") to provide for a minimal existence, no matter what.
Here I think you have a good example where it’s a lot more complex than boiling it down to “we need a safety net”. Welfare has all kinds of effects, some due to its existence and others do to the way we’ve implemented it. Not all of these effects are good, though many of them are. But once again, I think questions like this have to be addressed with careful consideration to individual freedoms AND the “net gain” for society.
_________________________
-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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