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#302522 - 24/09/2007 19:35 Questions about working in Holland
Dylan
addict

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
Hello! I've been away from this board for a couple of years for various reasons. The primary reason was that I quit my job, dropped out of society and became a bum in Amsterdam for a year. (A well financed bum, that is. Some dotCom era options finally paid out in 2005.)

I considered all kinds of crazy lifestyle changes but ended up right back where I started - in the US doing C++ and .NET software development. I'm content with the career choice but not with living in the US. I love the urban, European lifestyle and Amsterdam in particular. I've been back in the US for almost a year and I'm convinced more than ever that this isn't where I want to be.

I'm ready now to uproot my life and move to Holland. But there is so much I don't know despite the year I spent there. I was living as a tourist and didn't have practical concerns about working and finances. So I'm here asking for help because this forum has the smartest (and most handsome) people I know including real live Europeans.

The first question is can I work there? I've explored Dutch job sites such as www.monsterboard.nl and there appears to be a market for my skills without requiring I know Dutch. I do not have an EU work permit but I qualify as a "Highly Skilled Knowledge Migrant". What I don't know is how widely that program is supported by employers. Another option is to set myself up as a business and be paid as a contractor instead of as an employee. I have no idea what is involved in that or if it is an arrangement a company would be willing to do for my services.

The next question is whether I can afford a lifestyle that I find comfortable. This is the hardest for me as an American. The salaries I'm seeing for a Senior Software Engineer are shockingly low by US standards. It looks like I can expect to make around 50K Euro with a tax rate of 40%. Does this sound right for a strong candidate with 12 years of Windows development experience? In the Washington DC area I can earn $100K give or take. And I don't think the weak dollar is relevant for this discussion because it seems that 1 dollar in the US has about the same buying power as 1 Euro does in Holland.

So I take home 2500 Euro a month. An apartment in the canal area or Oude West of Amsterdam will consume about half that, leaving 1250 Euro a month for all non housing expenses and play money. That will definitely not support the kind of lifestyle and toy budget I知 used to in the US. But it seems manageable and I知 willing to give up the discretionary income to live a lifestyle where I think I will be happier.

I致e written enough for now and I really appreciate anyone who has made it this far. You can see I知 at the beginning of this exploration process and I値l take any help and suggestions I can get. The big questions are will someone hire me and go through the process necessary to get me a work permit and are my budget numbers roughly correct. I appreciate any guidance you can give. Thanks.

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#302523 - 25/09/2007 13:33 Re: Questions about working in Holland [Re: Dylan]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Quote:
I'm ready now to uproot my life and move to Holland.


Be aware that a lot of our expat friends have actually left, partly because Amsterdam was really badly hit by the 2001/2002 financial crash, but partially because the recent rather hostile and foreigner-unfriendly policies and attitudes. But things look a bit brighter again.

Quote:
I do not have an EU work permit but I qualify as a "Highly Skilled Knowledge Migrant". What I don't know is how widely that program is supported by employers.


It is - if they want your skills badly enough.

Quote:
Another option is to set myself up as a business and be paid as a contractor instead of as an employee. I have no idea what is involved in that or if it is an arrangement a company would be willing to do for my services.


It is actually very common here.

Quote:

The next question is whether I can afford a lifestyle that I find comfortable.



The simple aswer is probably "no". Unless...

Quote:
This is the hardest for me as an American.


Indeed. And what is needed is a mental adjustment - the quality of life here is not anywhere as consumption-defined as in the US. Here a posh, new bike (not to mention a car) is definitely frowned upon, and people don't eat out every day.

Quote:
The salaries I'm seeing for a Senior Software Engineer are shockingly low by US standards. It looks like I can expect to make around 50K Euro with a tax rate of 40%. Does this sound right for a strong candidate with 12 years of Windows development experience?


It sounds slightly on the lower end, but remember that a lot of techies want to live here, and there is a vast pool of very skilled, educated and hard-working programmers/software engineers here from Russia and the former Eastern Europe. And actually not that much software industry around anymore, apart from sweatshops like TomTom.

Quote:

In the Washington DC area I can earn $100K give or take. And I don't think the weak dollar is relevant for this discussion because it seems that 1 dollar in the US has about the same buying power as 1 Euro does in Holland.



But you have to remember that health insurance (and healthcare in general) is cheap, public transport works well, etc.

Quote:

So I take home 2500 Euro a month. An apartment in the canal area or Oude West of Amsterdam will consume about half that



That is also the most expensive areas in the city... So expensive that most Dutch people feel "only silly foreigners are stupid enough to pay that kind of prices".

Quote:
But it seems manageable and I知 willing to give up the discretionary income to live a lifestyle where I think I will be happier.


Precisely. But you have to be prepared to live with bureaucracy and red tape. Don't even ask about my garage permit (currently involved in a collective action lawsuit against the city on that one).

Julf (living in Amsterdam for the last 10 years)

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#302524 - 25/09/2007 18:38 Re: Questions about working in Holland [Re: julf]
Dylan
addict

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
Thanks for the reply, Julf.

Quote:
It sounds slightly on the lower end, but remember that a lot of techies want to live here, and there is a vast pool of very skilled, educated and hard-working programmers/software engineers here from Russia and the former Eastern Europe.


Interesting... I was wondering if this was the case. Given the standard of living in their home countries, I suspect they are willing to accept lower pay than I would. One of the things I'm struggling with the most is how I will gauge my marketability before I've sold my house and possessions. I figure it will be at least a 3 month process to leave the US. I don't think I can find a job and then expect my future employer to wait that long. But I certainly don't want to sell everything I own and then find out I misjudged my ability to earn a living in Holland.

Quote:
That is also the most expensive areas in the city... So expensive that most Dutch people feel "only silly foreigners are stupid enough to pay that kind of prices".


Ha! I haven't spent much time outside of the Centre. My vision of living in Amsterdam is in the old part of the city. I've lived in the soul numbing US suburbs my whole life and I love how alive and pedestrian/bike friendly the inner city is. I also like the architecture and history. I like having so many things close by. Do I lose that as I go further out? For example, even De Pijp was much less appealing to me.

Quote:
But you have to be prepared to live with bureaucracy and red tape.


Boy this must be bad because every Dutch person I talk to cites this as one of the worst aspects of Dutch life.

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#302525 - 26/09/2007 06:03 Re: Questions about working in Holland [Re: Dylan]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Quote:
But I certainly don't want to sell everything I own and then find out I misjudged my ability to earn a living in Holland.


Suggest talking to a head-hunter or two to feel out the current demand.

Quote:
My vision of living in Amsterdam is in the old part of the city. I've lived in the soul numbing US suburbs my whole life and I love how alive and pedestrian/bike friendly the inner city is. I also like the architecture and history. I like having so many things close by. Do I lose that as I go further out? For example, even De Pijp was much less appealing to me.


Most Dutch people consider De Pijp much more vibrant and interesting than the "stuffy" old centre. Oud-Zuid ("Old South") and the Jordaan rank very high too. But there are a lot of areas just outside the "old money belt", where living is much cheaper but the centre is still within 15 minutes by bike.

Quote:

[bureaucracy and red tape]

Boy this must be bad because every Dutch person I talk to cites this as one of the worst aspects of Dutch life.


Don't even get me started...

But at least the Dutch system, despite being complicated and frustrating, has some sort of logic and consistency to it, as opposed to the corrupt and chaotic system further south.

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