There are very smart people here, so I'd love to get your input on something. I know next to nothing about battery technology, so I'm a bit at a loss in this situation. First, the background:

For the last four years of my father's life he had no balance whatsoever, and had difficulty walking in general. It turns out that if you can stand but have no balance, a Segway is perfect for you, as it pretty much balances for you! So he bought one and for the next two-three years he would take it with him on business trips. He also liked it because when he was in a wheelchair he felt like he had people looking down on him, and he preferred to have people looking up to him on his scooter

Towards the end, he couldn't even go downstairs, let alone ride his Segway, and when he passed away in May of '08, clearly nobody was in a Segway-riding mood, and it sat in the garage until November, when it was put on a moving truck. Then it sat in another garage until the summer.

Walking by it one day, I decided to try taking it for a little spin. Damn, low battery. I plug it in to charge and decide to try again the next time I'm at my mother's place.

I come back and it still has zero charge. Long story a little less long, I'm now being told by Segway reps that the batteries are dead. I'm told that the winter in the garage without being plugged in was what did it. I'm also being told that because they were going on three years, they were probably at half capacity, so I'd have to replace them soon anyway.

The real kicker? The Segway takes two batteries. They each cost $900.

So not only was the Segway $3500 to begin with (we got a discount, I think), they expect that every four years or so, you need to spend another $1800 to keep it going? I started to become much less of a supporter of Segway.

I guess I have two questions: first, why did this happen? Why are these Li-On batteries so much easier to kill than others? Or would my electric razor do the same thing if I left it in a cold garage unplugged for the winter? Would my mother's Prius do the same?

And secondly, do you suspect I have any way to recover this thing? My father had also purchased NiMH batteries for taking the Segway on planes without being hassled, but I'm told those are likely even more useless than the other batteries.

Thoughts?

A sure way to kill LiON batteries seems to be to allow them to discharge fully, down to (near) zero volts. That's one common way that people use to kill their notebook batteries.

-ml

Cold has nothing to do with it. Lithium batteries are simply "crap" in this respect. They're the best we have right now in wide availability for size/capacity, but they're extremely fragile.

The bottom line is that you have to keep them charged at all times if you want them to last.

As Mark said, if they ever reach low voltage they're done. Even once below their magic number is enough to irreparably damage them. That's why everything that uses lithium cells has protection built in to prevent discharging below a certain level. The issue is that if you run them down in such a device, you had better charge them up again quickly, because they'll simply discharge on their own while not being used.

This is how we killed a few Sony "InfoLithium" batteries at my previous job. We just didn't use the video camera enough and even a new battery sitting around for the better part of the year without being on a charger would be near dead the next time it was used.

Batteries are expensive. Proprietary packages of them even more so. You might be able to find someone else out there selling rebuilt pack, replacements or parts to rebuild them yourself.

Wow. $1800.

Around here, we have some spare LiON notebook and camera batteries in long-term storage: charged to about 40%, stored in ziplock bags, and put on a shelf in the fridge. This storage method apparently allows them to "keep" for a few extra years over just leaving them on the shelf.

Google shows a lot of third-party vendors offering to refurbish Segway battery packs for about half of what Segway is asking.

It would be cheaper to run a Segway on gasoline than electricity it seems.

Are you also any less a supporter of hybrid cars? Electric cars (such as the Tesla)?
This isn't Segway's "fault" (except the price) and shouldn't be a surprise to anyone... at least, anyone who's owned a battery-operated appliance in the last few years. No reason to become inDIGNANt! (har!)
Even "old style" Ni-Cd cells will suffer in this sort of situation. Rechargeable batteries need exercise and cannot be stored discharged.

If you want the Segway, you'll have to pay at least some amount to re-power it. But beware of cheap replacements- half the price could mean less-than-half the battery quality, not to mention the warranty.

It's very nice to hear that your father's life was enhanced by the Segway. That's a very charming story and I'm sure the original cost was more than offset by his increased mobility. Belated condolences.

Not at all. But it's something they should have told us upfront. You would think that if your customer, who is purchasing a very expensive product from you, could kill that product so easily, they should really drill that idea in your head. Apparently Segway assumes that if you can afford the initial investment, you
can afford to spend almost two grand every four years.

What also concerns me is that the person I spoke to said that the batteries would have been performing poorly at this point anyway. I'm skeptical of this. There was a story recently about a test done on a Prius which found that after 10 years, its batteries were operating at something like 95%. But a Segway's battery goes below 50% after four?


Yes, har And I'm an enormous supporter of green technology. However, I do not consider Segways to be a green solution. I think they have their uses, but they're too expensive and there's no infrastructure to support their use for commuting (most bike paths around here wouldn't support a Segway very well).

I'm wondering if there's anything in place to keep this from happening to a Prius, or if it's just more likely that you're going to drive one enough to keep those batteries working.


Thanks, and it did help him out tremendously. Instead of him wheeling around in a chair feeling like everyone was sorry for him, he became a great center of attention and he loved it.

I'll check that out. I wasn't able to find that myself. Any links?

It is my understanding that the Prius deliberately doesn't use all of its battery capacity when new. By that I mean that it tells the user that the battery is empty a fair way before it actually is.

As the batteries degrade it uses more and more capacity, giving the user a consistent experience over time. The Segway doesn't really has this as an option, on something like that you can't be dragging around battery capacity you aren't using.

And I'm sure the user manual for the Segway had very clear instructions on not letting the batteries sat for long periods without topping up the charge.

I just checked and it does, in fact say this (at least it does on the latest model's manual). I guess I'm thinking that it should be a pretty prominent warning, not something on page 32 of the reference manual at the end of the battery charging section after temperature guidelines. I'm thinking that when you take your credit card, they could say "charge this every month or you'll be back here giving us $1800. That seems like an important enough thing to mention at time of purchase, and we would have remembered it!

Ah well, looks like someone's going to get a good price on a used Segway*



*batteries not included

I just typed segway battery into the google.ca searchbox, and it suggested several completions.. one of which was rebuild and another was replacement

EDIT: eg. these guys (MTO).

Cheers

I wonder if there is a charity that could place it in the hands of someone who, like your father, could use the extra mobility.

As for sales, it is my impression of the used market for all battery-powered items (anything from golf carts to hand drills, or roombas) that the unit with a dead battery is a challenge to sell- people already know the cost of the replacement battery and seem more comfortable purchasing an entirely new unit than used. In the case of hand-drills, the price of a new battery is often 2/3 the cost of a new unit (with a new battery!).

Ah well- it's always a trade-off. Good luck! I hope it finds a good home.

Matt, I've pinged a Segway owner I know based in NH who maybe able to advise on battery replacement, and maybe able to advise on the best route for selling it as is.

Thanks for that! I appreciate it. I'll be interested in what he says. I was thinking about contacting a local Segway group, they seem to be pretty knowledgeable.


That's a good idea. I know that for a while, there was a charity that purchased modified Segways for disabled veterans. Soldiers who had lost limbs, in some cases both legs, could use one to get around. I'll have to see if it's something they'd even want...


Cool! I might have to give them a call. They're only a couple hours away! I could save on shipping if they let me drive it there personally... I wonder which service I'd need to take them up on...

Mostly off-topic, but anyway.

Yesterday I was coming back from a friend's place, and there was a bright-blue Tesla playing along the street. That beast is QUICK. I knew the numbers, but seeing it in action was suprising. I'm not sure what is going on around here, that was about 2.5 miles from my house and Friday there was an Aston Martin at the drive-thru to the Jack in the Box about a mile from my house. That shopping area also had a bright orange Murcielago in front of the supermarket.

Apparently this area is turning high-class and nobody bothered to tell me.

Mark, you are the man. I spoke with someone there, who said it was perfectly fine to drive up in person (though it would be two trips). It's looking like it could be as little as $250 to recondition both batteries!!

Somewhat similar to what Bruno was saying: the guy I spoke to said that there's a circuit board in each battery that cuts things off if they get too low. He said that they go in and get around that, then charge up the batteries. The length of time they were sitting dead basically determines the success of the procedure and the resulting amount of battery life you get from the Segway. I was told that they recover about 85% of their reconditionings are successful.

Yeah, all of the sites I poked at had similar stories and options. In your case, I'd be surprised if "reconditioning" succeeds, due to the length of time the batteries were likely 100% drained in storage.

The other option is cell replacement. Most of the places seem to include replacement of up to XX% of the cells as part of "reconditioning", with full replacement of everything needed beyond that.

I posted the link for MTO after reading a review from a rider who suffers from MS and uses a Segway to get around.

Cheers

Well, perhaps I'll take a chance But it sounds like they might be able to get me working NiMH batteries for $750 total instead of $1800. I can't afford that either, but it's certainly better!


I really think that's the best use of Segways that I've heard of. It's a really nice wheelchair replacement (though it's a very expensive one).

I'm not sure the Prius actually ever uses more of the battery's "capacity range" as it ages; as I understand it, it's just restricting the charge-discharge to a zone which is less chemically stressful to the battery. You get less capacity, but you get a much, much longer life.

In particular on LiIons, when you go below 2v per cell, that's the point at which most safety circuits just call it a day - forever. Discharge below that point is pretty fatal, with lots of irreversible chemical changes taking place which mean you really don't want to charge them ever again. Charging over about 4v is also bad - that last 0.2v is really stressful, which is why the charge termination tolerances are so tight on LiIon chargers.

If your product has some small discharge (eg to run safety circuits or whatever) and you stop the "product mode" discharge - eg, driving around - at a point where there's still significant battery capacity available (say, 3.5v), you can buy months or even years of time before the battery will get down to 2v. However, if you drain every last drop out (say you stop at 3.0v) then there's actually very little capacity available, and you could be at 2v with a dead pack before you know it.

I'd be a bit worried about "reconditioning" of LiIon packs if they have gone below 2v... ie, I'd be charging the device away from buildings

The Samsung netbook I bought last fall has a BIOS option for using a reduced max charge, intended to prolong battery life at the expense of 20-25% run time.

Still, even 7+ hours run time (out of 11 or so) is pretty good, especially if it means the battery might last an extra year or two overall.

What I remember reading, some time ago, was that the electrolyte in lion batteries tend to crystallize when discharged too far, or when overcharged.

The net result is that these crystals pierce the very thin insulating layers within the battery, creating internal shorts.

There isn't much that can be done to help such a battery.

That's pretty much it. Something (copper?) comes out of solution and can end up in places where conductive material shouldn't be. Bad.

Quick update: at some point I'll be taking all of my Segway batteries to MTO. I'm going to try to get the lithium batteries reconditioned at first for the $250 fee. Apparently the "85% success rate" the guy there was talking about means success at getting the batteries working at a capacity that I like. He said that sometimes he's only able to recover around 15% of initial charge. Fortunately for me, some people still want batteries like that, and if I'm not happy with it, he'll buy the batteries off me for $250. I figure I don't really have anything to lose.

Plus, if it works, he'll buy the nickel batteries from me for $100, so at best I'm out $150 and a set of dead NiMH batteries, or $0 and a set of lithiums.

If it's the $0 result, I then have the option of reconditioning the NiMH set for $900, which they claim gets them to a point that's better than out of the factory. It's also half the cost of two brand new lithiums. But that's a huge expense, and I'll have to think about that later.

But thanks again for the MTO suggestion, Mark. I've been to a few Segway forums and they all seem to hold the place in high regard. I think I'm pretty fortunate that I live two hours from them and don't have to pay for super high shipping costs.


Now I wish my Scooba batteries would live a reasonably long time. I've replaced it twice now, and despite using it every two weeks, it still died pretty damn quickly. Apparently the general consensus is that they're pretty bad. Of course, there's one guy on there who was surprised that they didn't last after using the the Scooba three times in 18 months...

This is a perfect example of something I've been talking about for years now. Why we won't soon be overrun by robot overlords. They just won't have enough electrical capacity unless they're tethered.

One of the comments in the site you linked to was:

Might be a workable alternative for you.

tanstaafl.

One problem is that I kept getting mixed messages from iRobot's tech support. Perhaps I can get something more definitive from you guys:

For something like a Roomba or Scooba, how should I handle charging? Should it be charging all the time?

MTO recommends something interesting for Segway owners: getting a Christmas light timer. They said to set the timer so that it only went on for - at most - 8-10 hours every day. That apparently helps lengthen the life of the batteries. I can do that pretty easily using my Z-Wave modules, I just wasn't sure if that was a good idea or not.

Another Segway owner found this thread and made me aware that I hadn't actually posted the results.

Well, because MTO Battery ended up being located in Pennsylvania and only about two hours from me by car, I decided to drive there myself. The main reason was that I had two sets of batteries, so shipping them would have been far more expensive than the gas and wear on the vehicle (and I wasn't doing anything anyway).

Man, Jason at MTO Battery freaking KNOWS HIS STUFF! Sadly I wasn't able to go into his workshop where he keeps his laser cutter, but he told me all about his operation and he is truly the only game in town when it comes to Segway batteries. I was especially impressed by the way he goes the extra mile for his clients. He personally tests each set of batteries before they go out the door. He laser etches his logo on each battery along with the date to stamp his approval on his work. He ships the batteries back with boxes four times the weight he's required (as well as shipping them as hazardous materials). I could go on. His operation was first class.

The end result was this: for $250 he attempted a reconditioning of my lithium batteries. The idea was that if I wasn't happy with the resulting battery life, he would buy the lithiums from me and I'd spend a decent amount more to get refurbished nickels. The goal was to get 50% battery life from the lithiums, which is about what the less expensive set of nickels would get me (the equivalent of about 12 miles on the Segway).

He wasn't optimistic, given the amount of time my lithiums has spent sitting, but after the reconditioning he ran his load tests on it and determined that they would get the desired ~50% battery life. I decided that sounded good to me, so I had him ship the lithiums back to me. He then purchased my dead nickels from me for $100. I'm perfectly happy that instead of $1900 for 100% battery life, I paid $150 for 50%.

I got the batteries back, installed them myself, and fully charged them. After two tests of riding my Segway around until the batteries died, I'm satisfied that I have right around 40-50% of the original battery life. It's certainly more than I need. So I'm extremely happy with the results.

I was facing $1900 or the sale of my father's favorite toy. In the end the Segway was given second life for a mere $150 (plus shipping and gas). I can't thank Jason at MTO Battery more for the amazing work he's doing.


ps- side note, he also does a lot of work for Segs for Vets, the program that donates Segways to soldiers who have been injured in battle enough to affect their mobility. He's a good guy.