Hoping to find someone across the pond (i.e. UK, Europe) that has done an install on the new cooper. I have seen pics but not sure how integrated the stereo is. I am expecting a New Cooper and want to put the empeg in it.

Hi there, I too have a new cooper on order and want to install my Rio Car. I've been desperately searching the net for people who might have already done this, but you're the first I've found that's even mentioned the new Mini. All I know is that the standard head unit facias are slightly overzise (about 1/4" extra top and bottom) to the standard DIN. However, one of the European options is a radio/GPS unit which is DIN sized - there's a picture in my accessories catalogue (this is a head unit GPS/radio, not the colour screen GPS option which fits in the speedo). Anyway, because this unit is DIN sized one hopes fitting another head unit should be OK. Interestingly, my BMW dealer told me that fitting a non-standard head unit would invalidate the electrical part of my warranty - looks like I'll be removing Rio Car whenever it goes in to the garage. On getting the car (April/May), my first task is to discover how to remove the standard unit - If you get there first, post a message otherwise I will. My dealer also mentioned they were currently testing an optional Harman Kardon sound system (speakers and amplifier) - this would save having to fit our own amplifier, however it will cost £750 ($1200)!!!!!!!

Good Luck.

Yeah, I fell for that "upgrade" sound on my X5. "DSP", what a load of CR_P! My parents reverb setting on their 1950 wurlitzer sounded better. Don't get an upgraded stereo on ANY BMW product unless you don't care about sound. Money is better spent on aftermarket solutions.

In the US, modifications to the vehicle do not void warranties unless they can prove that the modification caused the warrantied part(s) to fail. May be similar in UK.

Also, BMW has taken to using coax connectors for all signals to and fro in the sound system. I hooked up my CD changer in the X5 with one tiny little coax connector and it handles both control of the cahnger and the sound, so unless your a sparkchaser professional it's unlikely a DIY project for integrating an EMPEG to factory radio. I planned on ditching my factory unit and going totally aftermarket.

THere are some interesting hacks into the BMW system that allow aux input but not truly integrated stuff.

I'll keep you posted when I get my Mini S!!

Wow, Cooper S, I'm impressed! Post some pics when you get it.
Yeah, I've read the Mini also uses data-bus technology, it won't be long until the ba5tards make it nearly impossible to use anything 'aftermarket'.

Cheers,

I've got a Cooper S on order too, for about the past 9 months - due in May/June or so I hear. It'll be a toss up between that and the Civic Type R which is hopefully just about to be delivered to see which one gets kept - the Cooper was going to be mainly for my gf, but she's not around anymore (much to my upset) so I have a car surplus... one of them will have to go!

ISTR the bay will definitely fit an empeg, being standard DIN size. I don't think there are any audio<>systems tie-ins on the mini. The radio sits on K-bus as with other BMW head units, but this shouldn't be a problem for an empeg install. You will need to find somewhere decent for the amp thogh.

Hugo

Cooper or Civic Type-R????? Hmmm thats hard, not. B-series fury man.

Hugo, I would have taken the gf, but I'll settle for the car. Just put it in a brown box with some padding and send it along. I'll worry about the left hand drive conversion when it gets here.

Damn, I'd love to jump into a new car. But I'm just finishing all the crap I did to get my audio system into my GSR. And then there's the small purchase of a house (very soon now...)

Bruno

Well, I was trying to think of some old witty and helpful saying about girlfriends and cars, but it's not coming to me. :-( Sorry to hear that.

If new girlfriend magnetism is part of the decision matrix, I think I'd have to give the edge to the Cooper. Of course, I may just be unfairly projecting my sex appeal formula on the vast majority of eligble women out there (and I can't say I've ever gotten top marks for understanding women), but I think the Cooper will have better "unique" factor. That may be more true on this side of the pond as I'm guessing that the Minis will never be as common here.

My friend is trying to convince his wife how easy it would be to get 2 child car seats in the back. By the time he succeeds in convincing, they won't need the car seats!

Best of luck.

The Cooper may get the chicks but does it rev to 8500 rpms?, was it built for racing?, does it come in Championship White?, and would it be as fun? I think not.

I just got done reading an old R&T article about how the ultimate "crumpet collector" (in the author's words) is a restored Jaguar E-type. He tells a story of parking one outside a Borders' Books for five minutes and attracting a crowd of attractive mid-thirties women who would ask him if they could please just run their hand along the roofline.

... the ultimate "crumpet collector"

Well, I think that if I could get my hands on a nice E-type I would *completely* forget about women!

but does it rev to 8500 rpms?

By this standard I should get all hot and bothered over a dental drill.

The Civic Type R is built in Swindon; I realise you'll never know the joys of this very functional english city, but it's very hard to get romantic about it. I don't think it was "built for racing", unlike the older CTRs, but it's quite sharp anyway. I have a NSX for going really fast in

The Cooper S (note, *not* the normal cooper; the cooper S is the 163bhp supercharged version, 6 speed, etc) is much nicer looking than the civic if you ask me, but is rather more cramped for rear seat passengers:

http://www.bmwworld.com/media/wallpaper/mini_cooper_s.htm

I suspect the Cooper will be damn fun too. It's going to be interesting... the most efficient thing is to sell the queue place for the mini, but...

Hugo

Ohh I was under the impression it wasnt the new CTR. Hey maybe you could find a nice ITR gen3 of course(getting rid of the double wishbone suspension makes me sick Ill never buy an RSX aka Integra) I own a halfass ITR. I had a full one until I blew the engine(dont run 15 pounds of boost on a stock ITR[wasnt my fault entirely my wastegate failed and well lets just say I ruined a $5000 motor]) so with a lack of funds I put in a LS engine and used the turbo I had on the ITR engine, so my car is plenty quick. I really cant say I like the looks of the Cooper but then again Im as conservative as Honda's styling so.

The Civic Type R is built in Swindon

Yeah and the Mclaren F1 is built in Milton Keynes, what's your point?

Rob

His point is only the good hondas are made in Japan

Don't sell the queue place! You know it makes sense...

p.s. Thanks for the pics and info.

I didn't like the styling of the old CTR at all (well, the last-gen civic, actually). The new CTR looks quite mean and you get a lot for the money - 197bhp engine, 17" wheels, nice seats, etc. The brakes are supposed to be amazing, a couple of magazines have rated it as the fastest stopping car they've ever tested, it stops faster than a 911GT3 (and having been on a track following one of those, they brake *very, very* late into corners!).

ITR is a bit dated if you ask me. I prefer something a bit more sophisticated too, in terms of soundproofing, etc.

Hugo

By this standard I should get all hot and bothered over a dental drill.

LOL

It is all about power to weight ratios though. That is why a Cooper S would simply be a blast to drive!

I should get all hot and bothered over a dental drill.

Now, Jiiiiiiim, you're being snippy!

(I only mean to say that I have been in some cars that I thought were loads of fun, but that probably wouldn't win any redline contests. It's the total package. Given the choice -- like, I wish!! -- I think I would jump at the Cooper S for the combined fun/sex appeal/conversation starter factors. Back seat passenger room? I never ride back there!)

Bad Jim!

What do you mean, riding in the back seat? You've got me all wrong there

(Speaking of which, the mini may be too cramped for anything *but* sitting in the back. I'm a bit past that now, though, not being 17 anymore )

Hugo

Oooooooooh! A white honda! Around here that's about as rare as flies on ****...

I think the Cooper has it all in style over any Honda...

Yeah well you obviously dont know what Type-R means

Post deleted by acurasquirrel

Attachment not working... it is a BMP, so maybe it was too big?

Hugo, just get whatever seems like the most fun. To get the ladies, just have them get in the car and show them the boot logo I made of you. hehe Chicks dig me for just OWNING one.

Here we go again the new CTR

Yeah, that's a nice looking Suzuki.

Honda styling has taken a nose dive since 1995. The RSX looks so bad I wouldn't keep one if it were given to me. Don't get me wrong... I'd sell it. But I wouldn't keep it or drive it. Honda got together with every other manufacturer of small crampt cars and worked out one generic design. Chrysler Neon, Ford Focus, etc... Boxy and ugly pieces of crap, all of them. Of course Honda's crap is always orders of magnitude better than most anyone else's gold. Honda design has been extremely conservative over the past couple of model years. Just one aspect I can't stand on these new models is their grills. That kills the sport look right there. The grill belongs on a sedan, but not a Civic. I suppose you can take a cue from US motor companies. Put a sticker on your vehicle that says "sport"

I'm surprised they didn't completely screw up the new NSX. But I'm also disappointed they didn't tweak the design to make it as cool as it could have been.

The Mini has a newness factor that will be unmatched by anything else this year. It will also hold its resale as well as any Honda (unlike any other BMW).

The Civic SiR will be out here (Canada) soon. I'm sure it will sell like wildfire in the Toronto area. It's always been a real rice hotbed.

Bruno

Personally second too the NSX the JDM Integra's had the best styling of any honda, gotta luv the one piece headlights.

This is all subjective of course... but in this case - you're just wrong Bruno because I don't agree. I actually think that for a $10,000 car, the Focus is a nice looking design. Honda must have thought so too. The new Civics look soooo much like them.

I personally bought a car that I thought was a little homely. But I like the interior, and it is a blast to drive. I would have bought a Jetta if I wanted a "pretty" car that I could afford. It all depends on priorities I suppose.

Yeah, that's a nice looking Suzuki.

ROFL, good one.

Here is one sexy car mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Here it is

When are you going to learn how to put up an attachment? For an Integra owner, you suck.

Bruno

Damn, you still stink.

Im doing it right but it wont take it dammit here is the link http://www.japanparts.com/Accessories/Honda/mugnintgra/3dr4.jpg
Hey hybrid you should visit team-integra.net sometime not until thursday night though its an awesome site.....sadly the database suffered castastrophic failure and wont be up till Thursday night but it really is a great site Im not lying

Aquasquirrel, the reason your attachment didn't work is because the file was bigger than 100,000 bytes. It was 118,969 bytes.

In the screen where you select the file to upload, it very clearly states the file cannot be over 100,000 bytes.

Just so you know, that's how you get uploads to work: Make them small enough.

I wouldn't touch a Focus. Literally. I certainly wouldn't let anyone I know buy one. There are plenty of used (and even abused) cars out there that are safer than a Focus and will last much longer. You do know that the Focus has already had at least 7 recalls, right? I think it might actually be up to 9 now. If that's not a record....

Anyway, over the next little while, see if you can spot how many cars have the same looks/lines as the cars I've menitioned. The new Civic hatch does its best to look like all the other POS models as well.

And, the best-looking Integra, IMO, was the intial 3rd Gen. The 98 US mod to the rear is good, and some elements of the front are nice, but I prefer the deeper inset lights. I don't like the JDM horizontal light cluster (that was introduced in either 96 or 97 in Japan). It just looks like a 3rd gen model with a piece of 2nd gen stapled to the front.

The RSX should have been a cross between S2000/Prelude/Integra. Instead it's GL-series Volvo/VW Golf/Toyota Paseo/Maxda MX3/Chrysler Neon/Ford Focus/Honda Civic/Big-Yellow-Schoolbus. Now it just looks like one of the crap US-built Hondas.

acurasquirrelly,

I think you are getting hit with the size limitation on the BBS for attachments...

I thought I made them small enought I guess not, I think the RSX should have been called an integra here in the states and should have had the JDM front end and either the s2000 rear or prelude rear. and most of all kept the double-wishbone suspension. I had the pleasure of renting a Focus and boy did that car suck although I was unable to kill it after numerous attempts I gave up.

They still look better than a crap Canada-Built Camaro or Firebird!

I owned a Focus for 2 years (that's how I have my sign on name). Yes it had tons of recalls, I can't defend that. But, I felt safer in a car that was recalled when it needed to be (instead of NOT recalled to save face.) Many of the recalls were minor (but not all). The Focus handles better than many cars twice its price. And it was a BLAST to drive. It even had more room inside, and bigger trunk than my WRX. Right now, it is the car that everyone is copying. IT was the 1999 European Car of the Year (was on sale in Europe 1 year prior to North America) and the 2000 North American Car of the Year and had tons of awards beyond that. I had one for several years and I STILL confuse the new Civic sedan for a Focus from far enough away. I still don't see how you say the Neon looks the same other than realitive size.... the Focus is edgy and the Neon is more round. They both have 4 wheels? Reminds me of some guy on vwvortex that claims everything in the world copies the Audi TT when in fact the TT "borrowed" from just about every old roadster esp. the old Porsches...

So, is there ANY car under $14,000 new that you approve of?

did you read that whole long thread about how the guy got sued by the dealership well that dealership is like a mile from me my roommate used to take his jetta there

In reply to:

---

you obviously don't know what type-R means

---

Sure I do... It means this.

Don't be so defensive....

I guess I kinda sorta deserved it but that brings up another point I hate kids with stickers as well. I have one sticker on my car oh wait two. A small team-integra.net sticker which is an awesome integra site that isnt for ricers, and a Georgia Tech sticker. Both tasteful. Only one real type-R came to the states the integra type-R and its stickers are fairly small. My favorite thing to do is go up to kids with those stickers and see if they will try and pass their car off as a real type-R if so Ill point out all 50 reasons why it isnt, this works well in front of girls then leave.

I don't want to come off as an ass, but...copying the Ford Focus? Who is? That car is hideous. I suppose the ZX3 and the ZX5 aren't as bad, but the other models took a severe beating with the ugly stick. Especially from the front - those headlights are just awful.

Now if you were talking about a Ford GT40...there's a car. Any car whose predecessor sent Ferrari home crying from Le Mans is good in my book (don't get me wrong, I like Ferrari). Of course, it runs about $85,000 more than the Focus and it isn't actually in production, but still.

You are rebutting my opinion that the Civic's design "borrowed" heavily from the Focus by saying that the Focus is ugly? That is you opinion and has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Take a look at the rear of a Civic 4-door sedan and the rear of a Focus 4-door sedan. See the horizontal chrome trim above the licence plate on both cars? See the height of the trunk lid? See the similar shaped tail lights? Now go to the front of the car. See the similar rakes of the windsheild? See the similar shapes in the head lights? Honda designers even publically praised the Focus (prior to the new Civic's launch).

Like I said, I owned one for two years and sometimes, from far enough away, I still confuse a new Civic sedan for a Focus.

Honestly, I don't think any other car can be considered truly ugly as long as the Aztec exists.

It's sort of a car-karma thing. Every Aztec that rolls off the assembly line makes every other car on the planet better-looking.

Except perhaps that new Cadillac. Saw one of those for the first time with my wife and she said, "what the hell was THAT?, that's disgusting."

I really can't decide on the new CTS Caddie... I see where they were going with it, and are SOOO close, but I don't think it will age well. The wheels are too small for the frame. From a ride-quality/performance standpoint - it is supposed to rock. We have a bunch of them at work here (involved in dealer training).

I still think, design wise, Cadillac is the best thing going for GM at the moment. Their concepts are amazing. Pontiac (minus the Asstec) is a close second.

My biggest pet peeve, is grey plastic all over cars... the older Escorts, the Aztec, the Neons... ick!

To Cadillac's credit, the final design isn't nearly as awful as the earlier concept versions. They toned it down some. Not quite enough, though.

I will definately agreee to the grey plastic thing, what is their deal with this crap. The new Chevy Avalanche has got to be the only thing almost as ugly as the aztec, im not sure which one takes the cake

Let me just say that I'm still chuckling, 20 minutes later, over the "Asstec" comment. I just picture Stan or Kyle saying, "Dude, your car looks like ass."

Honestly, I don't think any other car can be considered truly ugly as long as the Aztec exists.

If you think the Aztek is without peer, I need to show you what Avis rented us in January for our trip to the Rallye Monte Carlo. See attachment. Thank gawd we don't have to look at them over here!!

(We can't blame Fiat for the cheesy banner taped to the roof, but you get the idea.)

Heh, cute. Where do you insert the key to wind it up?

:O

Hmm... we've got these extra lights... could we just beef up the, um... bottom area of the windshield and stick them there? hehe

Oh, this wouldn't be complete without a shot of the dashboard......(attached) This *is* the Installation forum, after all!

Those are the high beam lamps under the windshield. Actually, there were some things about this mini-van that were well thought out, but I got nauseous when I looked at it for too long. They need to fire Salvador Dali!

That shifter placement reminds me of some rally cars....

I'm speachless.

Form follows function, eh?

Hey, at least it has a DIN slot !

Seriously though, while looking odd the Fiat Multipla (which is what is it) is a damn fine car. It is very well designed, fitting six seats into a size of a normal five seater small European car.

Hey, at least it has a DIN slot !

True! I await the thread "Hey, has anybody installed an Empeg in a Fiat Multipla?"

Seriously though, while looking odd the Fiat Multipla (which is what is it) is a damn fine car. It is very well designed, fitting six seats into a size of a normal five seater small European car.

There definitely were functional aspects of it that would be positives for a family of six (that, as you suggest, doesn't want to drive a monster). In five days, I started to get used to the 5-speed shifter sticking out of the dash, and the design really opened up the floor in the front (but the shifter wasn't very precise for whatever reason -- didn't like to go into 4th all the time!). No, Brad, no rally car!

I did *not* get used to having all the instruments off to the side (and that's my one knock on the new Mini). I'm happier diverting my gaze in a straight line to 6:00, not somewhere out at 3:49.

We slept in the car 2 nights and had specified a mini-van for this purpose (thought we'd get maybe a Renault Megane Scenic). The seats in the Multipla didn't recline as much as we might have hoped, nor did the seats slide back very far, so there was no advantage to this part over a sedan (that could also be true of the Megane). It is meant to *seat* the family, for sure.

Oh, one big nit. Since the greenhouse is so big, the *front* windows did not lower all the way into the door! I would expect that in rear windows, perhaps, but I would have a hard time living with that.

We did see a bunch of other mini-van type models (including some newer Renaults) that looked similar in concept/size, but which were certaiinly prettier! Also, there was a VW van -- closer to true van size -- that parked next to us one night that we really lusted after.

The Neon is a profile thing. The bubble profile that seems to be very common right now.

So, is there ANY car under $14,000 new that you approve of?

There are a few cars I think should be priced at 14K that aren't, but I couldn't give up my Integra GSR for anything on the market right now under 30K Canadian. I'm hoping something revolutionary comes out in the next two years. "Revolutionary" only because I think the current status-quo is shite.

BTW, anyone know what some companies choose to make the turn signals on some models red instead of amber? IMO, all turn signals should come stock in amber. No ifs ands or buts about it. Seems to be a US thing. For Honda it seemed to start on their piece of crap US-built models, like the Acura CL (which even my old Acura dealer said never ever to touch). Then even the 98+ Integras had them.

Bruno

yeah hybrid there is a reason the GSR was left largely unchanged for what was it 8 years. Dont screw with a great thing. Alot of people like the all red tails and pay to have them. I have crystal red tails and they looks nice on my white car and look good only on white cars.

That doesn't begin to come close to the pure ugliness of the Aztek.

And c'mon, all Pontiac is complete and utter crap. Design, performance, design, build-quality, smell, etc... I'm going to make sure that I specify in my Will that my body not ever be carried in a GM product of any kind.

Of course no offence to anyone, but you've got to have rocks in your head to buy a Pontiac (any Pontiac). Built for drivers. Drivers who don't know anything about cars, driving, style, ergonomics and don't know what other options are out there. Basically only for people who have a GM-only mentality. I can't believe people buy anything from Cadillac either, but that's another post.

Bruno

Yeah I mean what is up with that stupid Cadillac truck/SUV thing

Oh Bruno... *sigh*.... so how's that Canadian auto industry doing these days...?

At least I'll never accuse you of not speaking your mind.

That doesn't begin to come close to the pure ugliness of the Aztek.

I can't really disagree. At least the Multipla almost had a bit of playful wierdness mixed in with the ugly, but the Aztec is just plain harsh.

And c'mon, all Pontiac is complete and utter crap. Design, performance, design, build-quality, smell, etc...

I've driven about 200 rental cars in the past 5-6 years, most of them GM. That constantly leaves me wondering who willingly buys the Malibus, the GrandAm, the Skylarks, etc...and *why*? I'm actually going to switch from Avis to Hertz for a while to up the Ford quotient.

I'm going to make sure that I specify in my Will that my body not ever be carried in a GM product of any kind.

Y'know, I doubt you'll care if they stuff you into an Aztec when the days comes. Just make sure it doesn't have Georgia plates.

Canadian Auto industry? We just build the crap for whomever owns the factories. Mostly the big-3. Of course, there was the Bricklin way back when (mid-70's). Hey, there doesn't have to be a Canadian-based company for me to evaluate other's products. I'm evaluating compared to everything else out there.

Oh, when it comes to cars (well, friends will say when it comes to anythng and everything), I'll definitely speak my mind. The worst is meeting a pretty woman only to find out she drives some GM product. Uuuuugh. Complete loss of respect. For Pete's sake, GM uses the same crap parts in the Corvette that they use in a Sunfire!

Now, don't pull a yz33d and try and say I'm anti-US. I just think the US-founded Big-3 automakers design and build the biggest pieces of crap in the world, but that's it.

Last time I had to get a rental they gave me a Grand Prix. Drove it around for one day and returned it asking for something, anything, different. They gave me a Corolla. Not even close to my Integra, but at least 10 times more of a car than the crappy Grand Prix.

Ok, time to stop ranting. Team Canada survived another game

Bruno

Bruno-

I have to agree with you about the big three US car makers for the most part. IMO, all of GM is crap. Worse, not only is Ford crap, but they're turning Jaguar into crap (sure the jag's mechanical quality always sucked, but at least they used to have beautiful interiors...sigh). I would seperate Chrysler/Dodge from Ford and GM - I like the Viper, Prowler, PT Cruiser and 300M (though their build quality is also pretty poor)..

I wouldn't buy an American car, except for the sweet, sweet GT40...hmmmm. I bought a used 97' Audi A4 a year and half ago, and it has blown me away. The car runs like new. More amazingly, the interior looks perfect without me having made any special effort to take care of it. That's what I love about German cars - not only do they run beautifully, but the interiors don't fall a part like almost every other make of car seems to.

If it weren't for Ford, Jaguar and Aston Martin would be a page in the history book. Ford still lets those divisions run themselves. I am SO sick of people saying the X-Type is a Mondeo. The X-Type only uses 20% of the parts and none of them can be seen. If the X-Type came out first, everyone would be saying "wow, the Mondeo borrows 20% of the X-type's parts!" And all of the people that say this have not even SEEN a Mondeo. This isn't the same Mondeo that we got here (as the Contour and Mystique). It is an all-new car that is considered by some European publications to be the new segment leader (formerly held by the Passat). I am not sure where the new Passat fits now..

Ford has had absolutley no say in the design of Jag's. The only reason that the X-type looks the way it does is so that Jag could afford to offer a car under $30K. Quality wise, Jag's were a joke right before Ford bought them. Now, because Ford takes care of the "boring" stuff like logistics and resource sharing, Jaguar can spend its money (and that is TONS of money because of Ford) designing and building cars.

The S-type came out before the Lincoln LS so everyone says "wow, the LS is on the same platform as the S-Type!" But if the LS was launched one day earlier (despite the fact that both were developed side by side), everyone would be ripping on the S-Type.

I am no GM lover ( I get an employee discount, and havn't been tempted to use it), but I do think that GM has the most promise right now corporate wise... But to their credit, they built good engines and transmisions (although, they tend to put them in painfully boring cars).

Design wise? Ford is the champ right now. Chrystler doesn't have much in the pipeline other than concepts that wont get built. Most of their designers jumped ship to Ford and GM in the last 24 months once Daimler took over. Ford on the other hand, acquired J Mays (US born) from Audi/VW in 99' or so. He had a lot to do with the Thunderbird (he wasn't the main designer though). While at VW, he did the MkIV Jettas and Golfs and worked on the TT's and production version of the New Beetle. At Ford, he has done the Bullet Mustang, the Ford '49 and the GT40.

I'm from Detroit, so I guess I take this a little to personally but I also have a little better idea of what is going on industry wise. I spend more time on the intranets and at auto.com, autonews.com and autoweek.com than here! I was involved in Ford's media dept. and was able to see a lot there too... I left just in time before this whole Firestone thing hit.

In general, all recent studies have shown that the quality gap is narrowing. The reason I bought a Japanese car (and it was a great internal debate in my mind!) is only because there are no US built, AWD sedans. And I had trouble justifying a Jetta for nearly the same money that has suspension technology dating from the early 80's.

It is all personal opinion as far as design goes. GM sells more cars than anyone in the world. But more people watch Nascar racing the US than any other racing so popularity shouldn't be a measure of merit. I do know some people that consider the Audi A4 to have a boring interior... Me? I love 'em!

the *front* windows did not lower all the way into the door! I would expect that in rear windows, perhaps, but I would have a hard time living with that.

You'll want to avoid Ferraris too... I think Fiat has been raiding their parts bin. A buddy in Germany once gave me a lift in a loaner POS Fiat hatchback... the thing's interior door release was exactly the same as the F355 (funky pull-up lever on the top of the door's grab bar that you'd never figure out on your own). Spooky. I do believe that the windows went all the way down in this particular Fiat...

I got a ride in a Multipla taxi once outside of Milan. It may be ugly as sin, but as an "urban six-person transport" it rocks. I liked how the middle seats fold down to become massive arm rests with cup holders.

Side note: I suspect that Daimler Benz purchased Chrysler to obtain their advanced cup holder technology. I'm hoping that BMW will wise up and license it...

-Bryce

My 1958 Volvo has red rear indicator lights and white front indicator lights (and none on the sides)

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II) (as my main car)

Just for reference - I wasn't talking about the X-type, or even the S-type. I was talking about Jaguar's top of the line sports car, the XK8/XKR. The interiors of these cars are sh*t. They're unattractive, and have poor build quality. I know, I've spent a fair amount of time in them.

Is it probable that Jaguar and Aston Martin would have gone under without Ford? Yep. Is it mere coincidence that Jaguar's interiors took a serious nosedive as soon as Ford aquired them? I really, really doubt it. I don't doubt that Jaguar has a fair amount of design independence. However, to say that Ford does not effect the design of Jags is asinine, because they have huge say in their budget and the parts they have access to.

It may be that all these changes are necessary if Jaguar is going to be a profitable company instead of a sinkhole, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be bow down and praise Ford for making them. The end result is still a bunch of Jag's that I like less than I used to.

I don't have any particular prejudice against American cars. In fact, I'd rather buy American. If Ford ever builds a car that is comparable to my Audi A4 (or a BMW, or Lexus) in design, build quality, price, and handling, I'll buy it. However, no such car exists, from any US car company.

-Adam

I heard that owning a Japanese car in Detroit could be detrimental to your health!

Rob

Adam,

I agree with you that there is no US built car that competes in the "near luxury" range. Cadillac is trying with the CTS, but it comes no where close to the A4's and 6's, the 3-series BMW's or the Lexus 300's. The Lincoln LS is really nice, but tips the scale out of that price range. A "baby-LS" may be on the way (rumors are abound that it may get axed) that is supposed to be well under $30K. US companies compete well in the under $20K range and above $35, but don't offer much excitement between.

Jag and Aston (and Volvo) are the only divisions within Ford that still maintain their own design heads. Personally, I wasn't blown away by an XJ8 I drove lately. It was an 88 I think which should put it before Ford's purchase? But one thing that I have seen that would certainly support your opinion is that Ford wants Aston to be leaps and bounds beyond anything else. Ford may have asked Jag to tone it down? So, despite the similar styling on the exterior, the Jags will never be allowed to upstage the Astons. But, at $100,000 cheaper - that shouldn't be a problem!

I only mentioned the above because Ford will not let the SVT Focus be faster than the Mustang. It would hurt the image of the Mustang more than it would help the Focus.

This last year was, I believe, the first year that Jag turned a profit for Ford. Love em or hate em, but you gotta admit, Ford has some decent taste in the companies it buys! (Jag, Aston Martin, Land Rover, Volvo and they want Audi or BMW BAAAAAD.)

EDIT: This thread has gotten a bit off topic eh? Sorry! So.... about those Mini's...

Rob, back in the early 80's this was true for people that worked at auto factories or lived in areas heavily populated by auto factory workers. Most Detroit area auto workers are corporate types and usually don't know much about or care about cars (ever wonder how someone could go from being a CEO of a clothing company to a CEO of retail outlet then get a job as a CEO of a Tech company? ) Now-a-days, most people realize that we are living in more of a world economy.

All the Ford execs drive Jags. All of the engineers drive Audis or Volvos (Ford owns Jag and Volvo and wished it owned Audi). All of the GM engineers drive Saabs (owned by GM) and the execs ... I don't know! (by saying ALL, I am WAY exaggerating btw!)

I guess you meant 98 rather than 88 for that XJ8. Back in 88 it would have been an XJ6, Sovereign or XJS - and it would have been those horrendous square-headlight series 4's which almost put Jaguar out of business.

As far as I'm concerned the last proper Jaguar was the series 3, and I still have the badges from mine (I don't want to think about what the insurers did with the rest of it). I think the recent XJ's are a reasonable tribute to that car and the S type does the series 2 some justice. I'm not too sure what to make of the X's, though, and the XK sure ain't no E type.

Rob

Oops. It was certainly an 88 and was a 6 cylinder, so it must have been the XJ6. I've never owned one, but I have drooled over them my whole life! :P

I believe 88 was the first year of the series 4 - the square looking model, which became dated within a few years. The series 3 had a lot fewer gadgets, but it more than made up for that with style (and the 4.2 straight six was nice too).

Rob

Back in 1979, my father bought a beautiful red Jaguar, I believe it was an XJ12 (it was a sedan, and had a V12). It was a gorgeous car, though mechanically it left something to be desired. Recently he purchased a 1967 Series I E-type coupe (primose yellow). Again, a beautiful old Jag.

The fact that I grew up around these wonderful old cars probably explain's my hostility around the whole Jaguar/Ford thing, even if Ford doesn't deserve all the blame. I hope Jaguar get's back on track designing their exteriors and especially their interiors, because they were great cars back in the day.

-Adam

I have a hard time seeing the word "quality" and "Ford" on the same page. Uuugh.

The big three are very lucky in NA. Very lucky the typical consumer here easy to brainwash and generally doesn't give a rat's ass about what they drive. As long as it's from GM, Ford or Chrysler. You'd be surprised how many people don't know which parent owns which brand either. So with so many brands, they manage to compete well against the makers of quality products (ie. every other maker)

Let me entice more heat. I think the Mustang, and every version of it in the past 20+ years is complete garbage. Engineering capable of a freshman. Cheaply built large engines in poor chassis with even lower quality design elements. Love the fake vents all over the place. Wonder how many owners think they're helping to cool their brakes.

Ok... I've probably ruined all chances of Tony cranking on that alarm clock at my request now...

BTW, anyone see the new Camry? What on earth was Toyota thinking? Uuuuugh! The new Hyundai Tiburon ("Coupe" in Europe) looks pretty nice on the outside and inside. But under the hood it sounds terrible. A 6cyl 2.7L engine producing piss for power on their "GS-R" model (how dare they use that badge). The thing's been redesigned 3 times in the past 5 years - I think that may be an indication of how well they're doing. I did look under the hood of one of the originals in 96 and it looked the like engine had been cast in a cheap wooden mold in someone's back yard. Made me think I was looking at an American car.

Bruno

(...thinks this was offtopic enough to keep up with the average direction of bbs posts)

Heh heh!

Just spent most of this afternoon cruisin' round in a silver-grey fastback V12 E.

Didn't pull any birds, seems as if the only people who look here are middle aged blokes

Just spent most of this afternoon cruisin' round in a silver-grey fastback V12 E.

*Major* jealousy attack...

Didn't pull any birds, seems as if the only people who look here are middle aged blokes

You need to park it in front of Borders Books!!

(The Borders in Portland, OR used to run "Un-Superbowl" events -- chamber music, poetry readings -- where those of us who couldn't give a flying ___ about football could go to Borders on that Sunday and demonstrate to the fairer sex by our very presence that we were kind, thoughtful, sensitive, etc cetera, et cetera....)