#9408 - 14/06/2000 15:07
Convince me to buy an empeg
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new poster
Registered: 14/06/2000
Posts: 19
Loc: Boston/Pittsburgh, USA
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I have been frequenting empeg.com for almost 2 years now. I think it is one of the coolest things. I really want one but I'm not sure if I should buy one and it is such an expensive decision. So I was hoping some people who have them (or at least people who are interested in them) can help me make up my mind, either for or against.
First of all, I don't own a car. When I'm home on break I use my step-dad's car. I doubt I would be able to actually install the bracket in that car, but I could still connect it (power w/ a DC adapter and audio through the line out and one of those fake tapes). Even when I'm home I don't drive every day because I usually get a ride to work. On weekends, though, I drive a bit because we moved last summer so it is a 50 min drive each way when I go to see my friends + wherever we go).
At school I don't have a car, and I don't usually drive anywhere. I mostly stay on campus. Sometimes I go with friend to denny's or something.
Right now at school when I am working I listen to MP3's on my computer. I have have 1.5Gb of MP3's but I haven't ripped my ~40 cd collection yet. I carry around my laptop at times just for the mp3's. At work this summer, I bring my laptop but I rarely do more with it than listen to mp3's (doing work of course on my work machine). In the car I mostly listen to the radio (helps me find new songs that I want to download).
Should I get an empeg even though I won't even really be able to use its intended use (mounted in a car) yet? Should I spend less money on a Rio, Nomad, or that new 4.8GB portable? Does it sound like my laptop is good enough for me, when the empeg costs just as much as it did?
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#9409 - 14/06/2000 15:31
Re: Convince me to buy an empeg
[Re: sparkyb]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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You might as well wait. If what you are doing works for you, why break it? You can wait until you get a car, then the empeg is going to be a better choice. By then, the capacity will have gone up, the price down, and any bugs squashed.
Just my thoughts on it...
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#9410 - 14/06/2000 15:47
Re: Convince me to buy an empeg
[Re: sparkyb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Wow, when I started reading your post, I thought I was going to be the first to say "you must buy an Empeg now!" But I wasn't prepared for you to say that you don't own a car. Honestly, the Empeg Car is called that because that's its main purpose: to go into a car dashboard. As a portable MP3 player, it's not particularly useful or convenient. As a home-stereo component, it works quite well, but it's not particularly pretty in that environment and it's not a standard rack-size and shape. Actually, the Mark 1 probably looks better as a home stereo component than the Mark 2. But like I said, home-stereo use wasn't its primary design target- it's just an afterthought. Choices like the Rio or the Nomad are out, since they have paltry amounts of storage. It sounds like you want your entire CD collection in one place. Since your CD collection isn't huge, it sounds like the PJB-100 would make a much better portable MP3 player for you. You could easily store your 40 CDs on its 5-gig hard disk. You could also just continue using your laptop, but it's a tad less portable than the PJB-100 would be. It's up to you whether or not you want to shell out the cash for the increased portability that the PJB-100 would get you, or whether you want to just keep using your laptop. Personally, what I'd do is go the economical route and keep using the laptop as you have been, if necessary adding a bigger hard disk to it to accommodate your entire CD collection. If its CD-ROM drive can rip the CDs, too, then it's an all-in-one solution and you really don't need to change. Then you can save up your cash for both a car and an Empeg to go into it!  ___________
Tony Fabris
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#9411 - 14/06/2000 19:50
Re: Convince me to buy an empeg
[Re: sparkyb]
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journeyman
Registered: 05/10/1999
Posts: 89
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Empeg will either be releasing or OEM'ing a device intended specifically to be used as a home stereo component, unlike the Empeg. Although I use my Empeg at home a lot, I would recommend that you wait for the new device.
Corby
SN#320, 6-Gig Blue
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#9412 - 15/06/2000 00:42
Re: Convince me to buy an empeg
[Re: sparkyb]
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enthusiast
Registered: 22/03/2000
Posts: 217
Loc: West Midlands, England
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Why do I think this post is somebody's idea of a joke?
Somebody asks pretty much the equivalent of 'should I buy a yacht when I only have a small stream behind the house, and even then I can only use it every third Tuesday. By the way, at the moment I use a canoe.'. Surely not being serious.
And then....
I mostly listen to the radio (helps me find new songs that I want to download).
Speaking as somebody who owns all 650+ CDs he's ripped, I find that comment quite objectionable. Quite frankly, if I were anywhere near you I'd shove your MP3 playing laptop where the sun doesn't shine.
May I respectfully suggest that you spend the money you would have spent on an Empeg on actually buying your own music?
Nick.
--
#8724
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18GB red s/n 080000299
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#9413 - 15/06/2000 06:24
Re: Convince me to buy an empeg
[Re: debauch]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Woah, there horsey. Yeah I understand that it looks a bit ridiculous for his situation, but no need to bite his head off man I happen to own all my MP3's as well but there's instances when I don't really mind someone else downloading an MP3. The backdoor boys comes to mind. Sure don't mind seeing them get screwed by music piracy  DiGNAN 
_________________________
Matt
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#9415 - 15/06/2000 08:48
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: debauch]
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new poster
Registered: 14/06/2000
Posts: 19
Loc: Boston/Pittsburgh, USA
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This is what I really should have called this post. I know, have known that I shouldn't get an empeg, I didn't want to listen to the truth cause I think they are so damn cool.
Speaking as somebody who owns all 650+ CDs he's ripped, I find that comment quite objectionable. Quite frankly, if I were anywhere near you I'd shove your MP3 playing laptop where the sun doesn't shine.
First of all, I consider myself someone who care about anti-piracy more than most. If there is software that I like, I pay for it. I am more than happy to pay something I get good use out of and don't wish to steal from anyone. However, I have a very varied taste in music. If I like a song I don't want to have to go out and buy the whole cd when all I want is the 1 song. If there were some way I could pay for my mp3's I would (similar to the way eMusic works but with music that I've actually heard of). And to take an example of something that happened just recently, I realized I had several songs from a particular cd, so I went out and bought it despite that I already had the songs that I listened to off that cd. I just felt I needed to set the record straight on that one.
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#9416 - 15/06/2000 11:27
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: sparkyb]
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member
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 135
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First and foremost, I don't want to flame anyone (and my reply is not intended to be a flame). In reply to:
If I like a song I don't want to have to go out and buy the whole cd when all I want is the 1 song.
I agree with you to some degree that the ethics of the music industry are questionable. I find it very painful to purchase a CD and find that only one song on that CD is any good. So I do see where you are coming from.
However, as citezens in a captalist society, this opinion of ethics does not give us the right to violate law.
When you buy a CD, you are not buying the music. You are buying a RIGHT to listen to that music whenever, wherever and however you want (special exceptions apply as some will debate the however part I'm sure  ). You have no right to listen to downloaded music you didn't pay for, even if you hate the only CD that it is available on.
In reply to:
If there were some way I could pay for my mp3's I would
You may be thinking that the cost of a song on a CD should be the total cost of the CD divided by the number of songs on the CD (so, for example, 12 songs on a $10 CD would be 83 cents a CD). That's not the way it works.
Even if you could by the songs separately, you wouldn't get them for as cheap as you think:
Often times I have seen that a "single" song on a CD is half the cost of the full 12 track CD. Production costs aside, the cost of each song is not equal in the eyes of the artist. The cost of a full CD is often times made up in 2 or 3 songs out of 12. The artist doesn't expect you to like them all. The artist expects to get paid for the 2 or 3 songs you enjoy (and the cost of the CD is arguably based around that... I still say it's more expensive than what it's worth personally). Meanwhile, the customer thinks he's getting ripped off because the customer thinks the artist is charging $10 for all 12 songs.
The fact remains that you have no right to listen freely to the artist's song without buying the license for the CD.
So, pay the full price for the CD (of which most of it is what the artist would cosider the value of the "good" songs) and the beauty of MP3 technology is that you only have to encode that one song and then put the CD away. Then you don't have to listen to the shitty songs you don't like. But at least you paid for the right to listen to it.
Kureg
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#9417 - 15/06/2000 11:52
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: Kureg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Hmm. I somewhat agree and I understand your argument, but the sucess of an album and the songs on it are very hard to predict. No one knows which songs will be hits or popular singles, especially the RIAA. If you are talking about the expectation that there will be a certain amount of popular songs on an album, and saying that they figure the prices based on that, I don't think that is true either. If the songs on an album were sold individually, sure there would be certain songs on the album that no one would buy and I understand how that would suck for the artist, but in the end, they might make more that way. Who knows, it might even result in a sort of learning experience for the artist. They can judge what people like and aim their music in that direction (although that isn't the best way of making music). The fact remains that all this is going to have to be considered by the RIAA. They absolutely cannot leave this alone, and there's nothing they can do to stop the use of MP3's. ps-I can see it now: "we'll just start recording everything in wma format!" yeah, we'll fall for that. DiGNAN
_________________________
Matt
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#9418 - 15/06/2000 13:26
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: Dignan]
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member
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 135
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In reply to:
If you are talking about the expectation that there will be a certain amount of popular songs on an album, and saying that they figure the prices based on that, I don't think that is true either.
Definately could be a big subject of debate... I'm not a music artist, nor am I an agent. I think my view point could be scientifically or statistically valid, and my explanation of the situation is probably how I would think if I were an artist or agent. Marketing is often based on stupid statisical data, assumptions or estimations.
It isn't a bad hypothesis why a "single" costs so much with one damn song on it. It certainly isn't the cost of production or distribution.
This response was originally going to be long winded. I too feel ripped off by the music industry. But it shouldn't be a suprise that the honest people who pay for all of their music get pissed off at people who publically advertise that they don't.
Legally speaking, you can't justify piracy. What we feel is ethically right doesn't hold much weight in the legal system.
Kureg
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#9419 - 15/06/2000 13:47
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: Kureg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Legally speaking, you can't justify piracy. What we feel is ethically right doesn't hold much weight in the legal system.A truer statement was never spoken. The opinions expressed in this sub-thread are common ones. Most people feel that CDs cost way too much, and therefore feel somehow justified in pirating a few songs. And it's hard to argue that the record companies are justified in those high prices. That doesn't make it legal to pirate songs off the internet, though. Personally, I'm not going to condemn someone for downloading music from the internet. But I can't condone it, either. It may not be legal, but it's sure easy, and it's sure hard to get caught if you do it. And there sure are a lot of people doing it. The interesting thing about this is the opinions of the artists. Everyone agrees that the artists should be paid for their work. But realistically, most of the cost of a CD goes to the record companies. The artists (for the most part) just want people to listen to their music and aren't that interested in getting rich off of the music. There are some notable, vocal exceptions (*COUGH* Lars Ulrich *COUGH*), but those folks are really just working as mouthpieces of the record companies and the RIAA. What's going to happen (and it's already happening), is that we'll start to see a shift, where artists no longer distribute their music through a record company. You'll be downloading MP3s directly from the artists web sites, and they'll be so cheap that there's no reason to go hunting for pirated copies. 50 cents a song sounds like a sweet spot to me. Artists already have access to high-quality digital recording tools that are cheap enough to allow them to work out of their garage, and it costs next to nothing to host a site and set up an e-business. Mark my words, we'll see the demise of the big-budget record companies in our lifetime. This hubub over internet music piracy is just growing pains- the last death spasms of the record companies as they slowly become extinct. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#9420 - 15/06/2000 13:59
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: Kureg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Oh believe me, I agree, and I do understand your justification, although I think the production is alot more than you're chalking it up to be. I agree that piracy of any material is not good, otherwise why would they call it piracy? I think it's stupid that the legal justification for MP3'a and emulators are "if you own it at home, you can download it." Yeah right, like I'm gonna believe that you don't have a CDROM in your PC in the year 2000. And I also think that singles cost so much because they know that people will pay more for it, not because it's worth that much more. The popularity of a single, let alone an album, is purely objective on the larger scale. What I mean is that at this particular pathetic point in time, a backstreet boys single off a backstreet boys album is going to be worth more than a Screaming Trees single off a Screaming Trees album (who? my favorite band. www.allmusic.com). Yet the two albums, if released at the same time, will usuall cost the same regardless. It's the store's policy (particularily how much to charge for the full album), and that's what we would avoid by buying it online. Example: there's a store called Record Town in the mall where I live. Rental prices in this mall are extremely high based on the mall's entire east coast reputation (don't ask me why). I saw Binaural by Peral Jam there for $19. $19!!! So I went to the local Best Buy and bought it for $12. $12!!!I don't want to drive from store to store anymore. Just let me download!!DiGNAN
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Matt
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#9421 - 15/06/2000 14:13
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 135
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In reply to:
Personally, I'm not going to condemn someone for downloading music from the internet. But I can't condone it, either. It may not be legal, but it's sure easy, and it's sure hard to get caught if you do it. And there sure are a lot of people doing it.
I'm not an angel. I've stolen a song here or a song there in the past. I've stopped downloading songs for a few personal reasons.
1. I like knowing where the song came from... what album... what mix, etc.
2. I like knowing what it was encoded with, or better, I like encoding it myself.
2b. I like this because it ensures I get the quality I want from the song in question. Most of the songs I've ever downloaded were just not the quality I wanted (I'm picky). I'd rather buy the CD and encode it myself. I may not be an audio perfectionist, but I notice shitty quality when I hear it.
This is one side effect I like about the empeg. It has driven me to re-encode all of my songs using a new encoder and a better quality setting. The empeg has made me re-look at my music collection and want the best that I can get from it.
Kureg
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#9422 - 15/06/2000 14:21
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 03/08/1999
Posts: 451
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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I'm not going to add to the downloading-songs-that-you-haven't-paid-for debate. However, I read a very interesting article by, of all people, Courtney Love, on Salon (don't have the URL with me ATM) that has an interesting point.
Talking about that Pearl Jam CD, how would you feel if you knew that of that $19 or $12, none of that went to the artist? Certainly, a lot of artists have gone bankrupt at the same time as their albums are selling hundreds of millions of dollars - because they don't own that album, the record companies do. And guess who keeps all the profits?
Courtney's very much in favour of Napster, or anything which gets her work listened to by a wider audience. She didn't write it to sit on shelves and gather dust, or to be sold as 'content', or to be denied to some people because the marketing execs didn't think that chain of record stores was doing them a good deal. Because ultimately, it's art - to be enjoyed and listened to and played with, not to be locked away under copyright and trademark and only sold to the highest bidder.
While I use Napster, my collection of CDs far outweighs that volume of tracks by orders of magnitude. I'm still buying CDs. But one cannot help but feel that all the artists who really do care about their work are being helplessly shafted by greedy execs who are quite happy to pull the rug out from under them (witness several very dogdy pieces of copyright law revision in the States) just to make a buck.
But I suggest you pick up the article at Salon and read it yourself.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
_________________________
Owner of Mark I empeg 00061, now better than ever - (Thanks, Rod!) - and Karma 3930000004550
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#9423 - 15/06/2000 14:29
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: Kureg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I totally agree, Kureg. I much prefer to encode my own MP3's, for precisely the reasons you listed. What few songs I have downloaded, have been plagued by ripping or encoding problems. Or worse, they weren't even digitally extracted, they were sampled with a cheap soundcard, either off of vinyl or off of an audio CD.
The ideal situation would be to have the artists creating their own MP3s and selling them over the internet. The technical advantages to doing this are:
1) They can control the quality of the MP3 files to their standards.
2) The MP3s can come from their original digital stereo master instead of from a record-company mastered CD (which is sometimes butchered by the mastering process).
3) They can embed the correct tag data, for instance, spelling the song title correctly.
4) They could use the ID3v2 tag spec to insert correct lyrics and production credits. I'm still waiting for the day when my Empeg scrolls the lyrics by on the screen as the song plays.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#9424 - 15/06/2000 14:38
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: PaulWay]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Courtney's very much in favour of Napster, or anything which gets her work listened to by a wider audience.
This is interesting. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Metallica, who are making a career out of being RIAA mouthpieces. Is it just me, or does anyone else see a pretty clear line being drawn in the sand here?
This really is a fun time to be a musician. I'm planning on doing some recording work of my own pretty soon, and I have some close friends who are already making their own albums. We're in favor of the whole MP3 thing, of course, and I love the idea that we can have our work heard without needing to get a record company contract.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#9426 - 15/06/2000 19:16
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: fsteele]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I think that is perhaps one of the coolest things I've ever read. Courtney, you GO, girl!
It still doesn't justify or legalize pirating music on the internet, but it's sure a great rallying cry for artists to ignore the record companies and self-publish. I've been saying for a long time that a paradigm shift is happening. Courtney sees it, and she's just telling it like it is.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#9427 - 16/06/2000 06:01
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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And then there's the Offspring. They started selling merchandise with the Napster logo!! At first Napster sent a cease and dessist order to them (funny, huh?), but now they're working together! Supposedly at some press conference the lead singer of the Offspring only said something like "MP3...good..." I agree with the part about encoding your own music too, and also tony's point about getting MP3's from master recordings. I'd love that. And I always thought Courtney was a cool chick DiGNAN
_________________________
Matt
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#9428 - 16/06/2000 06:40
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: Kureg]
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new poster
Registered: 14/06/2000
Posts: 19
Loc: Boston/Pittsburgh, USA
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In reply to:
. Production costs aside, the cost of each song is not equal in the eyes of the artist. The cost of a full CD is often times made up in 2 or 3 songs out of 12. The artist doesn't expect you to like them all. The artist expects to get paid for the 2 or 3 songs you enjoy (and the cost of the CD is arguably based around that...
Ok, if the value of of different songs varies then that can be the case if you sell them individually. Also, I expect the cost of one song to be proportionally more expensive than the CD it is on. When you buy a large quantity you always get a better value, but I still dont go out and buy the more cost effective 2L when I just want a 20oz soda. This unproportional pricing would make sense because it would encourage people to buy the CD. This is essential to get exposure for songs that aren't played on the radio because although you buy a cd for 3 songs, and there are a couple you hate, there will be some that you discover that you like. But if you like 3 songs this makes sense and I would buy the cd for the expectation of liking other songs. However if there is only 1 song I like on it, particularly if I am familiar with other songs from the artist and know that I don't like their usually style of music and the likelyhood of liking any more than 1 song per cd is low, then it isn't value of the lower cost per song isn't worth the cost of the CD. Multiply this by a taste is music that feels this way about several hundred artists.
I read Lars's interview on SlashDot and I feel that he makes a very valid and good argument about the necessity of the record companies. It may be true that any unknown band can now produce there music and distribute it as mp3's without a record deal, but that does you no good if people dont listen to it. I don't get any music from mp3.com or eMusic because I dont know any of those artists. The record companies are essential for promoting music to get me interested, and because of this I dont mind that they have a cut of the money which I am more than happy to pay.
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#9429 - 16/06/2000 09:12
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: sparkyb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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It may be true that any unknown band can now produce there music and distribute it as mp3's without a record deal, but that does you no good if people dont listen to it.Which is exactly why Courtney Love is calling for a new kind of company- one that acts as a conduit between artists and fans, not as a gatekeeper. Her article rings so true that it almost brings tears to my eyes just reading it. She has quantified exactly what the music industry needs, and exactly what the fans want. It's a roadmap for the future. Yes, an artist needs promotion channels. But those channels don't have to be through traditional record companies any more. You may not be learning about new music from the internet right now, but the time will come when you do. And sooner than you think. You'll still be seeing the same promotional material you always have, but that promotional material will come more directly from the artists and from "conduit" companies, not from record companies. The record companies are essential for promoting music to get me interested, and because of this I dont mind that they have a cut of the money which I am more than happy to pay.But right now, we're basically paying only for the promotion machine. Most artists hardly see any of that money. Only the big-name artists who can write their own deals or form their own record companies ever make any real money off of these records. We're talking about a paradigm shift here, and it's not comfortable to think about. Without Polygram records, how would I have ever heard of Rush? That's a scary thought. How would I have discovered my favorite band if it weren't for the record companies? That's why we need a new kind of company. It will happen, and you'll see it happen soon. The artists will demand it. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#9430 - 16/06/2000 12:06
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: sparkyb]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
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blah blah blah blah. blah blah. blah blah blah blah blah? blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. blah, blah blah! blah blah. blah blah blah. and downloading the songs for free have no bearing on your rational? blah blah blah, blah. blah blah blah!! blah!! blah!
Calvin
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#9431 - 16/06/2000 13:35
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: eternalsun]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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eternalsun: I understand the wrong involved with downloading a song for free, and so does Courtney. What she was saying is at this point 2 things are happening. 1-it's not all that bad that the MP3's get downloaded for free because most are of poor quality (we can all attest to that), and may hopefully encourage the downloader to buy the album. 2-at this point the artists don't get any money anyway so as long as it's hurting the record companies ALOT, it's a trade-off for hurting the artists a little. I also completely agree Tony. Sparkyb, we aren't giving the record companies a cut, we are giving the artists a very small cut. And I agree totaly about the formation of new types of companies with the purpose of promotion, but not control. We need something like a combination of an agent and an advertising agency. A company that the artists hire to do work for them. I agree Tony, she hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head with that one. DiGNAN
_________________________
Matt
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#9432 - 16/06/2000 17:12
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: Dignan]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
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Don't get me wrong, I think Courtney Love is very eloquent and right on the dot. But I don't think sparkyb is on the same dot.
Calvin
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#9433 - 16/06/2000 21:55
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: eternalsun]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Ah, sorry, didn't know who you were replying to. I agree DiGNAN
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Matt
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#9434 - 19/06/2000 04:49
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: eternalsun]
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new poster
Registered: 14/06/2000
Posts: 19
Loc: Boston/Pittsburgh, USA
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What "dot" do you think I'm on? I'd like the chance to clear my name, as I hope to be able to show up again sometime in the future as an equal.
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#9435 - 19/06/2000 05:16
Re: Dissuage me from buying an empeg
[Re: sparkyb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12344
Loc: Sterling, VA
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He's just saying you have a different opinion than Courtney did. We're not treating you any different than anyone else here. DiGNAN
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Matt
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) with the best explanation of what's wrong with the current studio system and why MP3 is going to crush the labels....
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